Our boring style has produced two #1 seeds

[Alsacs]

Listen I'm not happy with the lack of success this year, but this thread is ridiculous.

Is it a fluke when any team that isn't a 1-4 seed doesn't make it?

I mean Indiana was better than us most of 2012-2013 and we destroyed them.

I think some people are giving other schools the benefit of doubt more than they give us,

My definition of not being a fluke is beating the high seeds.
Perfect examples
2005 George Mason beat
#6 seed Michigan State, 3 seed North Carolina, 1 seed UConn

2011
#8 seed Butler beat 9 seed ODU, 1 seed, 4 seed Wisconsin, 2 seed Florida.
They beat 9, 1,4,2 they didn't get a single broken bracket

#11 seed VCU beat 6 seed Georgetown, 3 seed Florida State, 1 seed Kansas

These teams didn't wear the white jerseys.

We earned our Final Four. We just got a broken bracket and took advantage. I mean it's not insulting to be analytical about this.

I want all upsets in our brackets. It's not insulting to say we got a few breaks.

 

[Alsacs]

Listen I'm not happy with the lack of success this year, but this thread is ridiculous.

Is it a fluke when any team that isn't a 1-4 seed doesn't make it?

I mean Indiana was better than us most of 2012-2013 and we destroyed them.

I think some people are giving other schools the benefit of doubt more than they give us,

Indiana was a product of playing a bad matchup.
Think Wisconsin for us.
That 2013 team had the best SU zone ever and it flustered Crean.
4 over 1 isn't a major upset.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Indiana was a product of playing a bad matchup.
Think Wisconsin for us.
That 2013 team had the best SU zone ever and it flustered Crean.
4 over 1 isn't a major upset.

Yeah I hear ya. Michigan State got outplayed by MTSU. Not many people here admit that for whatever reason. It's not like MSU played bad. They still shot 56% and 47% from 3.

We beat MTSU by 25 and held them to 50 points. It wasn't even a game.

 

[cuse10]

two other final four seasons and a 25-0 start in the past 8 years. Give me more boring if that is the case. Oh, and those two final fours have been in the last 4 years.

They pushed the ball more than they have as of late. Tyler Ennis' hesitancy to push the pace has casted a shadow over the last few years offensively.

 

[CorduroyG]

Yeah I hear ya. Michigan State got outplayed by MTSU. Not many people here admit that for whatever reason. It's not like MSU played bad. They still shot 56% and 47% from 3.

We beat MTSU by 25 and held them to 50 points. It wasn't even a game.

mtsu played the game of their lives against michigan st. there was no chance in hell they were gonna duplicate that against us. we earned our final 4. but we also got the biggest break of the tournament.

 

[Madbiker]

Go back in time to January 2015 our board didn't think the scholarships were a killer because JB only plays 7.5 guys max.

I agree the scholarships after the ban were the biggest punishment. We got 11 scholarships for next year and then 12 in 2018.
I hope we start building up depth.

In my view the biggest punishment from the NCAA sanctions was not the loss of the 'ships -- it was self-inflicted. We made our HOF coach a 3 year lame duck. That has hamstrung our recruiting. Even non top 100 kids, who should be jumping at an offer from SU, are putting us on hold while they shop around --- because we have introduced uncertainty. These kids are comparing Hopkins to well known coaches and likely thinking I don't know how Hopkins will coach. I know with these other high profile coaches what I'm getting. The admin should have either made a coaching change immediately or given JB a vote of confidence. If JB had done this his way, when ready he would have stepped down suddenly... a la Dean Smith and passed the reigns to Hop or whoever. There wouldn't be 3 years of uncertainty for multiple years of recruits to ponder.

 

[TheCusian]

Oh cool. Quote the post of mine that says we went to the final four by accident.

Meh. Was pointing to the flip side of the argument. If you have a problem with the "everything is fine, we made it to the FF" - what's the opposite opinion? We really sucked and lucked into a FF?

The truth is a little bit of column A and column B. Luck matters. But you have to play well and be good to make it that far.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Meh. Was pointing to the flip side of the argument. If you have a problem with the "everything is fine, we made it to the FF" - what's the opposite opinion? We really sucked and lucked into a FF?

The truth is a little bit of column A and column B. Luck matters. But you have to play well and be good to make it that far.

Nobody is saying it's column A or column B. At least I'm not. But my point is the final four masked some issues with the program.

 

[TinyManInside]

BUT given a choice - yeah, give me the "10 seed to FF" over the "25-0, but flamed out early" thing.

The problem is that the 10 seed to FF was a complete and total anomaly. It is unrealistic to use that as an expectation because in the 31 years of 64 teams in the tourney, only ONE out of 124 10 seeds have made it (us, last year). Let's say you make the tourney as a 10 seed for a decade straight, you're much more likely to end up posting something like a 4-10 record than making a final four run.

Seeding matters.

58% of all FF teams since the expansion to a 64 team tournament have come from 1 and 2 seeds. You're 74% more likely to make the Final Four as a 1 seed than you are as a 2 seed. 83% of FF teams since 1985 have come from the 1-4 slots. So if you're not one of the 16 best teams in the country, then realistically your chances take a nosedive.

NCAAT is a battle of attrition. There are no guarantees. Your best bet to making a FF run is to have an extraordinary regular season.

I feel like way too many people are trivializing what we did last year as a 10 seed, like it's a completely reasonable and viable path to making a final four. It's not.

I'm not taking anything away from last year's team, they earned it 100%. I went to the UNC/SU FF game and cherished the fact that we made it that far, and enjoyed the fanfare and overall experience because the team really came together to make it that far. But that doesn't change that it was the exception rather than the rule.

Mason

 

[NineOneSeven]

Nobody is saying it's column A or column B. At least I'm not. But my point is the final four masked some issues with the program.

The problem is that the 10 seed to FF was a complete and total anomaly. It is unrealistic to use that as an expectation because in the 31 years of 64 teams in the tourney, only ONE out of 124 10 seeds have made it (us, last year). Let's say you make the tourney as a 10 seed for a decade straight, you're much more likely to end up posting something like a 4-10 record than making a final four run.

Seeding matters.

58% of all FF teams since the expansion to a 64 team tournament have come from 1 and 2 seeds. You're 74% more likely to make the Final Four as a 1 seed than you are as a 2 seed. 83% of FF teams since 1985 have come from the 1-4 slots. So if you're not one of the 16 best teams in the country, then realistically your chances take a nosedive.

NCAAT is a battle of attrition. There are no guarantees. Your best bet to making a FF run is to have an extraordinary regular season.

I feel like way too many people are trivializing what we did last year as a 10 seed, like it's a completely reasonable and viable path to making a final four. It's not.

I'm not taking anything away from last year's team, they earned it 100%. I went to the UNC/SU FF game and cherished the fact that we made it that far, and enjoyed the fanfare and overall experience because the team really came together to make it that far. But that doesn't change that it was the exception rather than the rule.

Mason

Good posts.

Some people:

by the way I love that picture

 

[Alsacs]

Nobody is saying it's column A or column B. At least I'm not. But my point is the final four masked some issues with the program.

If we lose to Dayton last year this board is 10x more insane right now.

 

[Oráiste]

everyone is bagging on the offense, but this year's offensive efficiency of 116.2 is the highest Syracuse has attained in the 16 seasons that Ken Pomeroy has been computing the statistic.

it's the defense that cost us this season; it was the first Syracuse team to give up more than 1 point per possession in the same 16 season window.

there is no problem with either system; its the players in it and they way they execute. and the same is true for every team - when Duke or UNC or Kentucky or Arizona have down years, its because of their talent and the execution, not their systems.

all that being said - the program is in trouble. I've believed for a long time that programs that have to rely on transfers just to field competitive teams are not in a good position.

 

[cuseinseattle]

I think this thread has been more entertaining than our offense.

 

[cuseinseattle]

If we lose to Dayton last year this board is 10x more insane right now.

I agree but we didn't we made the final 4.

 

[721Comstock]

I think this thread has been more entertaining than our offense.

Definitely better than our defense.

 

[pfister1]

Go back in time to January 2015 our board didn't think the scholarships were a killer because JB only plays 7.5 guys max.

I agree the scholarships after the ban were the biggest punishment. We got 11 scholarships for next year and then 12 in 2018.
I hope we start building up depth.

And people who thought that have turned out to be dead wrong. I would include myself in that group. I didn't think the penalties would have nearly the impact that they appear to be having. Sometimes you have to go through a situation to fully understand it.

 

[TheCusian]

Nobody is saying it's column A or column B. At least I'm not. But my point is the final four masked some issues with the program.

I hear you. But big picture? I mean are the issues we're experiencing any different than any other during JAB's time here? I'd bet, without looking at the numbers - this year and the last two weren't that far off from our averages - and like some have said, the scholarship reductions did hurt a touch.

 

[Orange2389]

and we have no championships from it

 

[Briancuse]

If we lose to Dayton last year this board is 10x more insane right now.

Whenever I think about how stressful this season has been, and the thoughts about not getting in this year, I just say we went to the Final Four last year, and it makes me feel a lot better.

 

[TheCusian]

The problem is that the 10 seed to FF was a complete and total anomaly. It is unrealistic to use that as an expectation because in the 31 years of 64 teams in the tourney, only ONE out of 124 10 seeds have made it (us, last year). Let's say you make the tourney as a 10 seed for a decade straight, you're much more likely to end up posting something like a 4-10 record than making a final four run.

Seeding matters.

58% of all FF teams since the expansion to a 64 team tournament have come from 1 and 2 seeds. You're 74% more likely to make the Final Four as a 1 seed than you are as a 2 seed. 83% of FF teams since 1985 have come from the 1-4 slots. So if you're not one of the 16 best teams in the country, then realistically your chances take a nosedive.

NCAAT is a battle of attrition. There are no guarantees. Your best bet to making a FF run is to have an extraordinary regular season.

I feel like way too many people are trivializing what we did last year as a 10 seed, like it's a completely reasonable and viable path to making a final four. It's not.

I'm not taking anything away from last year's team, they earned it 100%. I went to the UNC/SU FF game and cherished the fact that we made it that far, and enjoyed the fanfare and overall experience because the team really came together to make it that far. But that doesn't change that it was the exception rather than the rule.

Mason

No argument with any of that. I've made this same case.

Winning a lot and getting high seeds is far preferable. What I am saying is that this dip in wins is not all that special or denotes some kind of fatal flaw with the program. It's kind of who we've been the last 30+ years. We're no Kentucky or UNC or Duke - we're a slot below. (I'd love to jump up... But I think that will be next coaches job).

If our expectations are that of those blue bloods, then yeah - let's freak out. But I think when I see people say "we're fine" - I take that as "we're kind of where we've always been."

 

[TheCusian]

Good posts.

Some people:

View attachment 91429

by the way I love that picture

Me too. But that only works if you think our house has been on fire since the dome was built.

 

[nzm136]

This is a strawman. We can have an effective zone defense AND an effective offense.

This philosophy has made our margin for error small.

During that same time span our system for 3 years has gone 59-41.

NCAA report: Complete list of penalties handed down to Syracuse University

Those 3 years included the sanctions and the "Penn State screwed up, so let's jump on the Bernie Fine witch hunt" sanction investigations that almost certainly affected our play.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Syracuse football beat Virginia Tech
Virginia Tech beat Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh beat Clemson
Clemson beat Alabama

Ergo Syracuse > Alabama FB.

If they played 100% zone, on short preparation time, they would beat Alabama.

 

[Hoov50]

two other final four seasons and a 25-0 start in the past 8 years. Give me more boring if that is the case. Oh, and those two final fours have been in the last 4 years.

You could also argue that good defense was the primary reason for a lot of that success. After our 25-0 start it was certainly offensive issues that led to our poor finish. Lack of a cohesive offense certainly was a huge contributor to the loss to Butler, Michigan, Dayton, Marquette, and even to a certain extent Ohio State (although nonsense foul trouble also was a huge factor). In fact, the only NCAA Tourney loss in that time frame that a more effective offense wouldn't have made a difference was last year against UNC when we were simply overmatched.

I am all about winning games, regardless of how we win them, but to say a more cohesive, and through that cohesiveness less boring, offense wouldn't have made a difference is a statement I don't agree with.

 

[Alsacs]

You could also argue that good defense was the primary reason for a lot of that success. After our 25-0 start it was certainly offensive issues that led to our poor finish. Lack of a cohesive offense certainly was a huge contributor to the loss to Butler, Michigan, Dayton, Marquette, and even to a certain extent Ohio State (although nonsense foul trouble also was a huge factor). In fact, the only NCAA Tourney loss in that time frame that a more effective offense wouldn't have made a difference was last year against UNC when we were simply overmatched.

I am all about winning games, regardless of how we win them, but to say a more cohesive, and through that cohesiveness less boring, offense wouldn't have made a difference is a statement I don't agree with.

We had Michael Carter-Williams, Brandon Triche, CJ Fair, James Southerland, Rak Christmas, Jerami Grant, Baye Keita and had a pathetic offense.

I mean that talent is insane and go watch the Georgetown games. We won the last one in OT and only scored 58 points.
The Elite 8 win over Marquette we scored 55 points.

If this team scores just a little better it cuts down the nets. I mean JB had the talent and still our offense was pure chit. This is the frustration he doesn't help the offense at all. JB is all about the zone, zone, and the zone more.