QB Justin Lamson transferring to Stanford

[sufandu]

An indenture was a contract (passage to the new world in exchange for labor on shore). But in modern times it comes down to the fairness of the bargain. Continued employment in exchange for educational benefits (or a debt for the cost of the education if the employee leaves early) is done all the time in industries across the economy.

I know what indentured servitude was.

My friend couldn't leave for a better offer across the street without penalty. That's pretty much what were talking about, right?

 

[sufandu]

I imagine you can see how that's quite a bit different.

No. No I don't.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

No. No I don't.

So in one scenario, a person gets an education, but if they leave, they have to pay back the education.

In another scenario, the person is working, they're compensated for the work, they get an education, but if they leave, they have to pay back the education.

That whole "work and compensation" part of things really matters.

 

[BKCuse]

What buzz?

I know people are salty he left but c’mon y’all he’s a good player and we’re not the only ones who think so.

He obv didn’t have national buzz but he had buzz within the program and word gets around CFB who the good looking backup QB’s are - especially with all the defections from our staff. There is no loyalty once you’re on a new staff.

We’ll see where he ends up but it seems like another school wants him bad enough to make it worth the effort to portal.

I thought he played better than CDRW in spring game and also think he’s a better fit to relieve Shrader.

 

[Scooch]

Counterpoint is what happened at SU with Shrader coming in and moving the ball better than the guy who was here for years.

Oh your pesky facts.

This kid is the third string QB. AFTER 2 years in the program. How can we possibly replace him?!

 

[IthacaMatt]

Who knows what kind of tampering (or thought processes) might have gone on. But from my view in Section 117, he has zero D-1/P5 snaps and is wearing a brace after rehabbing a major injury. Why overlook the forest for the trees ... the best opportunity is right in his face?

Because we've lost other guys, too, and our health history with a running QB these last 10 years has led to us playing a lot of 2nd string, 3rd string, and one year 5th string guys.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Counterpoint is what happened at SU with Shrader coming in and moving the ball better than the guy who was here for years.

Well, like I said in another thread, you're only the starter until somebody comes along who can clearly play better. When the team can see that a guy can really play, then he gets quicker acceptance into the team.

But look at hoops. This has a lot to do with the relative failure rate with transfer in that sport, maybe more than football, because the teams are so much smaller, the relationships are so much more personal.

 

[sufandu]

So in one scenario, a person gets an education, but if they leave, they have to pay back the education.

In another scenario, the person is working, they're compensated for the work, they get an education, but if they leave, they have to pay back the education.

That whole "work and compensation" part of things really matters.

We're talking about guys leaving primarily for reasons of NIL. They're getting paid too. And without the platform of the university, it's far less likely they're head hunted to shift to a competitor. Is it exactly the same as my friend? No. Is it as different as you portray? No.

Now I get it. The university isn't paying them, outside entities are. Blah blah blah. We all know that's a bunch of bunk. Guys are getting paid by individuals or collectives connected to schools if those guys decide to play for those schools. No Alabama booster is paying the #1 rated player in the country to endorse his business or sign autographs if that guy decides to play for Auburn, regardless of how exciting the guy is and how much attention he draws to the guy's business.

Edit: Let me be clear. I don't think a change like the one suggested that started our conversation would actually ever work. It would only take one school to say, "I'm not requiring the strings that my competitors are," to draw the best talent and then nobody else would do it.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

We're talking about guys leaving primarily for reasons of NIL.

You can't make sweeping policy like "if you leave the school you owe back your scholarship" based on that. You just can't.

Every once in a while a fan has an actually interesting idea about this, but 90% of what gets proposed are weird butt hurt reactions to whatever imaginary slight they feel because they can't handle change and in some cases can't handle other people benefiting from something in a way they didn't get to.

Count me out on indentured servitude. Sweet jeebus it's 2023, we can move forward.

 

[sufandu]

You can't make sweeping policy like "if you leave the school you owe back your scholarship" based on that. You just can't.

Every once in a while a fan has an actually interesting idea about this, but 90% of what gets proposed are weird butt hurt reactions to whatever imaginary slight they feel because they can't handle change and in some cases can't handle other people benefiting from something in a way they didn't get to.

Count me out on indentured servitude. Sweet jeebus it's 2023, we can move forward.

Reread the post you originally responded to. He didn't suggest sweeping policy change, at least not how I read it. As someone else said, it would be contracts between individuals and universities, which is why I said it wouldn't work even if someone tried it.

You keep saying indentured servitude. That's your interpretation, and it's inaccurate. I already explained why. Before NIL that argument made sense. Now these guys are getting paid to play and they're being head hunted. It's a different game.

 

[SmilinBob]

I'm curious if he was promised a shot at QB1 and felt he got shafted? Maybe approached NIL wise as well and sometimes the combo leads to a decision to leave.

This hurts depth wise but gives CDRW more practice snaps so let's hope he seizes the day.

McPhail is a decent 3.

I don't want just another body and a lost scholarship, someone who can at worst hit an open guy and not turn the ball over and If he can compete for QB1 after Shrader, even better.

 

[GoSU96]

Reread the post you originally responded to. He didn't suggest sweeping policy change, at least not how I read it. As someone else said, it would be contracts between individuals and universities, which is why I said it wouldn't work even if someone tried it.

You keep saying indentured servitude. That's your interpretation, and it's inaccurate. I already explained why. Before NIL that argument made sense. Now these guys are getting paid to play and they're being head hunted. It's a different game.

They already rendered services during the period they were on scholarship. The player fulfilled their obligations during that period. Why would a school be entitled to restitution? A scholarship isn’t an investment.

If a player was paid a lump sum bonus up front to lock in four years, maybe the prorated bonus would be owed back. But that’s not what is happening here.

Its a stupid argument.

 

[Trueblue25]

Why are people assuming McPhail’s actually option 3?

Id bet Villari would step in need be.

 

[All4SU]

Why are people assuming McPhail’s actually option 3?

Id bet Villari would step in need be.

I would hope Villari would recognize his future, if he has one, is at TE, and that he is fully committed to that role.

 

[Trueblue25]

I would hope Villari would recognize his future, if he has one, is at TE, and that he is fully committed to that role.

If we were down Shrader and CDRW, I’m sure that immediate needs would likely outweigh original plans

 

[Cuse181]

I'm curious if he was promised a shot at QB1 and felt he got shafted? Maybe approached NIL wise as well and sometimes the combo leads to a decision to leave.

This hurts depth wise but gives CDRW more practice snaps so let's hope he seizes the day.

McPhail is a decent 3.

I don't want just another body and a lost scholarship, someone who can at worst hit an open guy and not turn the ball over and If he can compete for QB1 after Shrader, even better.

If lamson is getting NIL offers then we have hit peak lunacy.

 

[sufandu]

They already rendered services during the period they were on scholarship. The player fulfilled their obligations during that period. Why would a school be entitled to restitution? A scholarship isn’t an investment.

If a player was paid a lump sum bonus up front to lock in four years, maybe the prorated bonus would be owed back. But that’s not what is happening here.

Its a stupid argument.

So have coaches that have to pay a buyout to get out of their contract. Or the flip side is that schools are required ro pay a buyout to coaches they fire for services that won't be rendered. Contracts often include safeguards for both parties. Regardless, I already said it wouldn't work.

 

[GoSU96]

So have coaches that have to pay a buyout to get out of their contract. Or the flip side is that schools are required ro pay a buyout to coaches they fire for services that won't be rendered. Contracts often include safeguards for both parties. Regardless, I already said it wouldn't work.

When players can negotiate their compensation from the school, then that’s comparable. Other than that both parties are on year to year deals

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Is it? Or is it a contract, the terms of which are negotiated by both parties?

They are not negotiated. The scholarship is unamendable. In your case, it is an adhesion contract. A good attorney would direct his client to be sure to document all of the classes the student was not allowed to take because of his required practice times, training room times, lifting and conditioning times, and how the student could not get the major he wanted due to scheduling conflicts. The school is in violation of the spirit of the agreement, if not the actual wording of the agreement.

 

[atlanticuse]

Maybe he goes to Colorado. They need people.

 

[Chip]

This thread is too much indentured servitude and not enough moral turpitude.

 

[djorange1989]

Maybe he goes to Colorado. They need people.

Is Lamson Louis Vuitton enough?

 

[BigNastyJon]

Is Lamson Louis Vuitton enough?

 

[All4SU]

They are not negotiated. The scholarship is unamendable. In your case, it is an adhesion contract. A good attorney would direct his client to be sure to document all of the classes the student was not allowed to take because of his required practice times, training room times, lifting and conditioning times, and how the student could not get the major he wanted due to scheduling conflicts. The school is in violation of the spirit of the agreement, if not the actual wording of the agreement.

I have long supported the idea that student/athletes should have more control over their academics. So I support that completely. Perhaps that would have been a better road to follow than the current mess.

My question for you, Esquire, is what part of the “contract” (that’s not a contract) could the schools enforce? Example: Player A doesn’t perform as anticipated? Or Player B failed to complete academic assignments and was ruled ineligible. Or Player C gets in a bar fight and is suspended. Isn’t this agreement just as vulnerable to challenge from the school’s position, and doesn’t that give the agreement more strength if both sides can carve out a position?

 

[IthacaMatt]

If we were down Shrader and CDRW, I’m sure that immediate needs would likely outweigh original plans

I think I saw a QB offer on the Twitter machine.