Read Bleeding Orange

[realorange]

Belatedly, I just finished reading Bleeding Orange.

While it is mainly about JB’s coaching life, it goes into a lot more than that. I didn’t realize just how much until I finished reading it and most of the posts on this board over the last week.

Take the time to read it and find out Jim’s philosophy on coaching, the zone, player recruitment, managing players, etc., etc.

Many of the posts I have read recently make statements that frankly are off the wall with no idea of the facts. Read Bleeding Orange and educate yourself.

While I would be the first to say tell it like it is, that doesn’t mean just throw stuff against the wall and see if it sticks. For threads to go on and on saying JB should leave, that the staff doesn’t know what they are doing, that we should hire a current head coach over Hop and any other negative some can think of makes me sick.

I’ll finish this post with a short excerpt from the book.

JB talks about “slippage”, things that can happen to a program causing it to falter. I quote from Bleeding Orange, what he says regarding slippage:

“It’s a combination of things, and I’ll tell you what exacerbates it more than anything: a fickle fan base. Nothing will wound a program quicker than a fan base that doesn’t stay loyal. We have always had that here, and it’s been a major factor in our success. You can have bad coaching years, bad recruiting years, bad playing years, but if your fan base stays behind you, there is almost no chance you won’t recover.”

 

[JoeySimz]

Belatedly, I just finished reading Bleeding Orange.

While it is mainly about JB’s coaching life, it goes into a lot more than that. I didn’t realize just how much until I finished reading it and most of the posts on this board over the last week.

Take the time to read it and find out Jim’s philosophy on coaching, the zone, player recruitment, managing players, etc., etc.

Many of the posts I have read recently make statements that frankly are off the wall with no idea of the facts. Read Bleeding Orange and educate yourself.

While I would be the first to say tell it like it is, that doesn’t mean just throw stuff against the wall and see if it sticks. For threads to go on and on saying JB should leave, that the staff doesn’t know what they are doing, that we should hire a current head coach over Hop and any other negative some can think of makes me sick.

I’ll finish this post with a short excerpt from the book.

JB talks about “slippage”, things that can happen to a program causing it to falter. I quote from Bleeding Orange, what he says regarding slippage:

“It’s a combination of things, and I’ll tell you what exacerbates it more than anything: a fickle fan base. Nothing will wound a program quicker than a fan base that doesn’t stay loyal. We have always had that here, and it’s been a major factor in our success. You can have bad coaching years, bad recruiting years, bad playing years, but if your fan base stays behind you, there is almost no chance you won’t recover.”

Thanks realorange! I have this book and have been waiting to read it. You've inspired me to do so.

 

[SoBeCuse]

It's a very good book but by no means should it be some Gospel or Bible. Anyone should be able to question those philosphies or question whether the current day to day basketball operations (coaching/recruiting) are following those philosophies.

 

[iommi]

As SoBe said, questioning things is not being disloyal. Some people are fickle and spoiled but some just don't like our direction.

 

[JoeySimz]

It's a very good book but by no means should it be some Gospel or Bible

Who is purporting it as such?

 

[JoeySimz]

As SoBe said, questioning things is not being disloyal. Some people are fickle and spoiled but some just don't like our direction.

And some just have an unsatiable desire to place blame with never ending vengeful posts against our coaches (and sometimes players) in nearly every thread. As if they were somehow wronged.

 

[iommi]

And some just have an unsatiable desire to place blame with never ending vengeful posts against our coaches (and sometimes players) in nearly every thread. As if they were somehow wronged.

And those people are despicable.

 

[PoppyHart]

When in doubt, blame the fans. Makes sense.

 

[Col. Bleep]

When in doubt, blame the fans. Makes sense.

If you can't blame the media, blame the fans.
Fair criticism is not being fickle.
In his 40-plus years on the bench does the coach have any real experience with a fickle fan base?

 

[SoBeCuse]

And some just have an unsatiable desire to place blame with never ending vengeful posts against our coaches (and sometimes players) in nearly every thread. As if they were somehow wronged.

If you're talking about me then you should pick a different battle. No disrespect and "vengeful" posts from me. Just criticisms and concerns about the direction this program has been going the past few years.

 

[iommi]

If you're talking about me then you should pick a different battle. No disrespect and "vengeful" posts from me. Just criticisms and concerns about the direction this program has been going the past few years.

Nah, no one would go there about you.

 

[721Comstock]

In his 40-plus years on the bench does the coach have any real experience with a fickle fan base?

Uh, yeah - 41 years worth.

 

[JoeySimz]

If you're talking about me then you should pick a different battle. No disrespect and "vengeful" posts from me. Just criticisms and concerns about the direction this program has been going the past few years.

No, not directed at you, man. I was just adding to what Iommi said.

 

[Forloveoforange]

I don't think its fair to go into this season extremely happy with the team, and then now, question recruiting, after you see it not working. Now, maybe some were not on the bandwagon, but I think most were. So, if you're questioning recruiting now, then you should have been questioning recruiting at the beginning, no?

 

[Coach Orange]

Belatedly, I just finished reading Bleeding Orange.

While it is mainly about JB’s coaching life, it goes into a lot more than that. I didn’t realize just how much until I finished reading it and most of the posts on this board over the last week.

Take the time to read it and find out Jim’s philosophy on coaching, the zone, player recruitment, managing players, etc., etc.

Many of the posts I have read recently make statements that frankly are off the wall with no idea of the facts. Read Bleeding Orange and educate yourself.

While I would be the first to say tell it like it is, that doesn’t mean just throw stuff against the wall and see if it sticks. For threads to go on and on saying JB should leave, that the staff doesn’t know what they are doing, that we should hire a current head coach over Hop and any other negative some can think of makes me sick.

I’ll finish this post with a short excerpt from the book.

JB talks about “slippage”, things that can happen to a program causing it to falter. I quote from Bleeding Orange, what he says regarding slippage:

“It’s a combination of things, and I’ll tell you what exacerbates it more than anything: a fickle fan base. Nothing will wound a program quicker than a fan base that doesn’t stay loyal. We have always had that here, and it’s been a major factor in our success. You can have bad coaching years, bad recruiting years, bad playing years, but if your fan base stays behind you, there is almost no chance you won’t recover.”

The first two questions asked of the book should be, "Who is the audience for the book, and what purpose would Coach B have for sharing this with that audience?" Good critical readers should always start with those questions when reading a text.

 

[pfister1]

As SoBe said, questioning things is not being disloyal. Some people are fickle and spoiled but some just don't like our direction.

Loyalty is trusting someone who is a proven winner to find the right formula and not immediately call for him to move on because of a down year or two. Questioning is ok when its simple discussion and debate; when it becomes pitchforks and torches the loyalty is gone. It feels like a lot of the folks here are prepared to light the torches.

 

[iommi]

Loyalty is trusting someone who is a proven winner to find the right formula and not immediately call for him to move on because of a down year or two. Questioning is ok when its simple discussion and debate; when it becomes pitchforks and torches the loyalty is gone. It feels like a lot of the folks here are prepared to light the torches.

I don't think it's been about a down year or two. It's about more than that. People have been sounding the warning bells about our systems and about our recruiting for several years. I don't think it's so much about our record.

The pitchforks and torches are not cool. The difference now is that we know JB is almost done. Therefore, discussion about how and when the official end comes is warranted.

Good post.

 

[OttoMets]

Eh, Boeheim says things. This is so evidently false: "if your fan base stays behind you, there is almost no chance you won’t recover." He just says it; that doesn't make it so. Reality is a lot more nuanced than his simple one-liners.

It is a good read, by the way, and there are some tremendous insights into Boeheim's mind. But I wouldn't put too much stock into any one thing he says.

 

[OttoMets]

The first two questions asked of the book should be, "Who is the audience for the book, and what purpose would Coach B have for sharing this with that audience?" Good critical readers should always start with those questions when reading a text.

Bingo. (Good advice for all reading, of course, not just this one.)

Two years after reading this book, one thing sticks in my mind: the prevalence of "I don't pay much attention to what guys do off the court," "I wasn't interested in academics when I was a student" comments, coupled with the Big Announcement that came down about three months after publication.

This book was dictated with an obvious purpose in mind. Still enjoyed reading it, but it's not a neutral memoir about a bunch of personal and professional experiences.

 

[Forloveoforange]

I don't think it's been about a down year or two. It's about more than that. People have been sounding the warning bells about our systems and about our recruiting for several years. I don't think it's so much about our record.

The pitchforks and torches are not cool. The difference now is that we know JB is almost done. Therefore, discussion about how and when the official end comes is warranted.

Good post.

Things were good in 2011. All time high as far as record (up through 2012). Then the Bernie Fine controversy hit. Things were still in place to have a great record in 2011-2012, despite all controversy. But I think the controversy had its affect, to make it not as good a season as it could have been. And its all been downhill from there, except for a couple final fours.

This could all be predictable without blaming the staff. Its been all about the player quality, but you can't necessarily blame the staff. Its just been tough since 2011 for recruiting, and of course getting close to retirement of coach could definitely affect future recruiting, but to blame the coach and staff might be wrong.

It really seems like the NCAA plays favorites, and Syracuse having the utmost success 2010-2012 was not a postitive. I think we should support the staff and realize that Syracuse has not been treated fairly.

 

[newmexicuse]

It is absolutely ridiculous to even imply that this fan base is not extremely loyal.

Does JB define loyalty in terms of accepting everything that goes on ? M v Zone & similar stuff is just sports talk. he should have thicker skin on that stuff.

Not playing by the rules and getting on probation (not once, but twice) and possible maltreatment of certain players is quite another thing.

Jimmy's body of work is beyond reproach, but there are certain things that responsible fans should be questioning beyond and including this season's W-L record.

 

[realorange]

It is absolutely ridiculous to even imply that this fan base is not extremely loyal.

Does JB define loyalty in terms of accepting everything that goes on ? M v Zone & similar stuff is just sports talk. he should have thicker skin on that stuff.

Not playing by the rules and getting on probation (not once, but twice) and possible maltreatment of certain players is quite another thing.

Jimmy's body of work is beyond reproach, but there are certain things that responsible fans should be questioning beyond and including this season's W-L record.

Where is the implication that this fan base is not loyal???

Aside from a few snipers here and there.

 

[billsin01]

Eh, Boeheim says things. This is so evidently false: "if your fan base stays behind you, there is almost no chance you won’t recover." He just says it; that doesn't make it so. Reality is a lot more nuanced than his simple one-liners.

It is a good read, by the way, and there are some tremendous insights into Boeheim's mind. But I wouldn't put too much stock into any one thing he says.

Haven't read the book but a couple of things stand out to me in JB's defense: I know there are negative connotations here but in some ways it reads like an attempt to give a shoutout to the loyalty of the fans here. Of course there's always the JB cynicism and the idea that the fan base plays that big a role may be inaccurate. But I read it as his way of saying -- 'hey, the dome opens in 80 and we're in the top 5 in attendance every year from there on out. That's a huge advantage.' Have to feel like fan support has, in fact, been a big factor in this program's success, even though he probably hates most of us message-board types.

The second thing is that there is a really simple set of truths in there (paraphrased): You can have bad coaching years, bad recruiting years and bad playing years.

I mean, these are all the points that most here are debating with this group. So those criticisms are, by definition, warranted since we seem to be struggling a bit in all three phases. Having said that he makes a pretty good point (relative to those saying he has to leave or retire): Sometimes you simply miss. We missed on recruits, we added a couple key transfers but they weren't home runs, which has translated into really uneven performance, and we obviously have struggled a bit on the coaching front.

There are reasons to be concerned but some of what's happening this year is as simple as the staff missing on a series of calls. It's not quite that simple, but it happens to everyone at times, even hall of famers.

 

[ar inj]

As was suggested above, "you can have bad coaching years, bad recruiting years and bad playing years," but like it or not, SU athletics, SU basketball and JB, are in the entertainment business. JB decided to go all zone all the time and when it does not work, pull out the trunk monkey press. Last year it produced a Final Four and great memories that I will always have, but all zone, all the time, sit back and see if the other side cannot make threes or the other coach cannot get his team to do what every TV analyst tells them they need to do combined with no semblance of offense has become boring. And I do not mean this year, I mean for several years now. I never thought I would say this (and neither did my wife who has become a great fan) maybe I will skip the game.

Whether its a new old coach or a new coach, SU needs to start playing an exciting brand of basketball again. Lots of teams do, but SU no longer does.

P.S. I will not miss the game tomorrow night or Saturday or this season, but I cannot believe that after decades of being a fan I am even thinking about thinking about it.

 

[Cusefan95]

Eh, Boeheim says things. This is so evidently false: "if your fan base stays behind you, there is almost no chance you won’t recover." He just says it; that doesn't make it so. Reality is a lot more nuanced than his simple one-liners.

It is a good read, by the way, and there are some tremendous insights into Boeheim's mind. But I wouldn't put too much stock into any one thing he says.

I don't know how accurate the statement is, but I look at programs like Kentucky, or North Carolina, or many other top programs - and they still have decent crowds at their games when it's a down years. Programs like DePaul and Houston that were dominant programs in the 70s/80s also had more "pro-mentality" fans - when they started to struggle a bit fans disappeared and the programs fell off a cliff.

The only program I can think of that makes me question the statement is Indiana - it shocks me how largely mediocre they've managed to be for two decades now.

TL;DR version - I think the "evidently false" portion of your comment needs elaboration - what programs am I missing that make it a clearly false statement?