Secondary benifit to signing Coleman

[General20]

First off, I just want to say that in my opinion Coleman is a stud and will be ready to contribute from day 1.

Secondly, the guy is a center. I dont see him playing anywhere else while he is at SU.

Assuming that is the case, we will have 4 guys capable of playing the 5 in Melo, Coleman, Keita, Christmas.

We will also have 3 guys capable of playing the 4 spot in Christmas, Fair, and Southerland - maybe a fourth in Keita.

It seems like too many big guys to me, assuming everybody stays.

What I would love to see is Keita red shirt his junior year.

Red shirts in general are rarely used, but unquestionably effective. The last SU team to get a 1 seed had two medical red shirts in Rautins and Onuaku, and a transfer who had to red shirt in Johnson. Last year Notre Dame pulled a 2 seed with a bunch of experienced semi-talented guys who were willing to red shirt.

In the next two years Syracuse has a chance to red shirt two excellent players in Cooney and Keita, assuming everybody stays healthy and stays at SU. I hope they do, because the payoff will be huge. Not many (if any) teams will have the luxury of being able to play talents like Cooney and Keita as 5th year guys without having to sacrifice anything depth-wise along the way.

Keita especially would come back a beast after a year off where all he had to do was hit the gym and scrimmage against his very talented teammates.

 

[OttoMets]

It seems like too many big guys to me, assuming everybody stays.
What I would love to see is Keita red shirt his junior year.
Red shirts in general are rarely used, but unquestionably effective. The last SU team to get a 1 seed had two medical red shirts in Rautins and Onuaku, and a transfer who had to red shirt in Johnson. Last year Notre Dame pulled a 2 seed with a bunch of experienced semi-talented guys who were willing to red shirt.
In the next two years Syracuse has a chance to red shirt two excellent players in Cooney and Keita, assuming everybody stays healthy and stays at SU. I hope they do, because the payoff will be huge. Not many (if any) teams will have the luxury of being able to play talents like Cooney and Keita as 5th year guys without having to sacrifice anything depth-wise along the way.
Keita especially would come back a beast after a year off where all he had to do was hit the gym and scrimmage against his very talented teammates.

A little too early to tell, but I like the idea. There's little worse than a good player wasting a year of eligibility because he's surrounded by very good players and isn't going to see more than 10 minutes a game.

A lot can change in the next twelve months, though.

 

[armory]

Fair/Southerland are 3s, not 4s.

 

[rrlbees]

While CJ will play some 4 this year to get him on the court more due to the presence of KJ at the 3, Fair is really a 3 vs. a 4 and starting next year I expect him to own that 3 spot for 2 years.

 

[RF2044]

It's an interesting idea--not sure if it would ever happen.

 

[orangefan13]

Put me on the record for Melo at the four at Syracuse if he lasts to his Jr year. I am really hoping he will just as much as I hope to see the Dion MCW backcourt extended unearthly ball pressure and passing abilities.

I know a absolutely crazy thought but thets just wait and see
Keita slides better in the middle, Melo will be a monster weakside rebounder/blocker as a jr unstoppable at PF off the dribble(hes our best dribbling big right now). And Dajuan isn't afraid of size in the middle.

 

[Garbs]

not happening

 

[orangefan13]

not happening

Im glad the coaches see and try new things. They could suprise you. You know what wasn't happening last year Rick playing in the high post becoming skinny enough to play the four while being undersized enough to still play the 5. Yet Melo has a much higher ceiling then Rick probably beat Rick down the court in a race and you say it isn't happening.

Think About Melos size in post up against a PF. If he learns to get next to his man he could be unstoppable. You would rather go Keita or Christmas instead of Melo and Coleman if they are clearly our best scoring and isolation bigs? Seriously he could be a more explosive Pau Gasol.

Its our best opportunity ever to put a 7'0 at the PF slot and honestly you do less sliding at the four. At 7'0 with help defense does it even matter if you get beat doing minimal sliding you will just come back to block them once they hit the secondary defender. They would have no choice but to throw a long outlet pass.
Ive explained why I can see it happening and I am sticking with it.

 

[Garbs]

Im glad the coaches see and try new things. They could suprise you. You know what wasn't happening last year Rick playing in the high post becoming skinny enough to play the four while being undersized enough to still play the 5. Yet Melo has a much higher ceiling then Rick probably beat Rick down the court in a race and you say it isn't happening.

Think About Melos size in post up against a PF. If he learns to get next to his man he could be unstoppable. You would rather go Keita or Christmas instead of Melo and Coleman if they are clearly our best scoring and isolation bigs? Seriously he could be a more explosive Pau Gasol.

Its our best opportunity ever to put a 7'0 at the PF slot and honestly you do less sliding at the four. At 7'0 with help defense does it even matter if you get beat doing minimal sliding you will just come back to block them once they hit the secondary defender. They would have no choice but to throw a long outlet pass.
Ive explained why I can see it happening and I am sticking with it.

I was mostly talking about redshirting Keita

 

[Upstate]

One thing we have known for years -- JB will play the guys that are ready to contribute at this level. If you can't you wont see (much) time on the court.

 

[ClamOtto]

I can certainly see the value in redshirting, but what if someone takes a non-medical redshirt and then gets hurt? You can't get a 6th year in that situation, right?

 

[SoBristol]

JB isn't going to red-shirt any of the highly recruited bigs -- that would include Keita, Christmas or obviously Fab or Coleman. Can't think of any time that has happened. You may not think Coleman will play the 4 -- his coach and Coleman himself both said recently that he was preparing to play either position. Coleman is the one guy of the bunch who has moves on offense, including a mid-range jumper. If Rick Jackson could play the 4 to Arinze at center, you have to believe that Coleman could play the 4 (on offense) with Keita or Fab as the center. I expect Christmas will be a 4 only (especially given what we have at center).

 

[007]

I'm not convinced that Coleman is going to contributre "from day 1" due to conditioning issues and ability/desire to play defense. He will be the best inside scoring presence we have had in a long time. Offensively, he can play the 4 0r 5...doesn't matter too much in JBs system as long as the other big can pass. Defenisvely...I believe we will only be able to play the 5, at least his first 2-3 years. The secondary benefit is to Christmas and Keita. Having a 5 that can score means that JB can play an athletic 4 with little/no offense. Simialry, I don't think Christmas is going to get much run at the 4 this year unless Fab can score consistently inside.

 

[reedny]

First off, I just want to say that in my opinion Coleman is a stud and will be ready to contribute from day 1.

Secondly, the guy is a center. I dont see him playing anywhere else while he is at SU.

I don't agree, for reasons stated in my post under a similar (4 versus 5) thread (interested to hear your reaction, General):

Getting his commit is sweet ... now we can relax and speculate about his weight and the various frontcourt rotations.​

In trying to understand DC's skillset, the first thing I notice is that, if he's in shape (i'm guessing in the 255-265 range), he's a defensive matchup problem. If you put a big (like a 7'0) center on him, he's capable of moving around the defender or facing up and shooting the mid-range jumper. If you play a smaller PF against him, he will just post up. If you double him, he's capable of passing out of the block to another big or a perimeter player.​

This gives the coaches options and creates problems for opposing teams, which is why JB has already stated (according to DC) that DC will play "the 4 or the 5". My guess is PF, for a few reasons.​

First, Although DC was an obvious Center in HS with his size, PF is his natural position in college and the NBA. He's already working on a face-up game. According to his coach at JD, he has a mid-range jumper and is even capable of shooting from the outside. Clearly, at the college level, he'll need to slim down in order to move his feet and handle the ball against better/quicker players. But I don't see this as a stretch because his post game is already there and he understands where his future is as a player.​

Second, with KJ moving on and X-Mas the lone sophomore big enough to play the 4, there will be some minutes available off-center. The 5 will have 2 junior players who are not only more experienced but also much taller. Keita can (and has) play(ed) the 4, but practice reports (and X-Mas) have him at center backing up Melo and the need for this is obvious. So the 4 looks like the most likely spot from a 'minutes'/backup standpoint.​

Third, having either Melo or Keita at center with DC at the 4 doesn't mean that DC can't guard the opposing center. This would allow Melo/Keita to block shots off the ball on defense (not DC's forte'). On offense it makes less difference -- DC can do his thing and the center can rotate into the paint for rebounds and put-backs.​

The main issue will be DC's mobility. Can he get his weight down enough (ala RJ) so he can guard the wing and blossom as a PF? I'm guessing he can, but either way, his inside offense will be a godsend.​

 

[SU8888]

The only person i can not see coleman on the floor with is fab. They would definetly not be able to cover the wings. However, Coleman at center with christmas, kieta, CJ, Grant at the 3 0r 4 would be an awesome lineup. Wow, we are going to be load for the next couple of years!

 

[armory]

I think that whether DC2 plays the 4 or 5 will depend on who is out there with him.

- If the opponent has a big-bodied center then you need DC2 @ the center putting a body on him (a la Onuaku) until Rak fills out his frame over the next few years.

No big center opponent? ...

- If Rak is out there with DC2 then if we have a quick & athletic player on the opposite wing = you can put DC2 at a wing since that would allow him to cheat out to the perimeter knowing Rak could provide help (and block almost anything) while the opposite wing can quickly slide in to help defend the weak side.
- If Rak is out there and, say, Mookie or a guard (3-guard lineup) is on the opposite wing then you need to switch them and leave DC2 under the basket, otherwise the weakside will get beat on size alone.
- If BMK is out there with DC2 then I'd push BMK to a wing since BMK is much quicker and not a noticeably better defender than DC2 under the basket.
- If Melo is out there then I'd put DC2 at the wing to utilize Melo's length in the lane and limit the liability of his slow feet.

All theories aside, one thing is for sure... if DC2 is to ever play the 4 then he really needs to improve his conditioning because the wings need to move a lot in the zone and move quickly. And he is a big dude.

The only person i can not see coleman on the floor with is fab.

Was going to say the exact same thing (though I don't want to rule anything out so soon). If they were to play together then one of them would be a liability on defense.

 

[General20]

I don't agree, for reasons stated in my post under a similar (4 versus 5) thread (interested to hear your reaction, General):

Getting his commit is sweet ... now we can relax and speculate about his weight and the various frontcourt rotations.​

In trying to understand DC's skillset, the first thing I notice is that, if he's in shape (i'm guessing in the 255-265 range), he's a defensive matchup problem. If you put a big (like a 7'0) center on him, he's capable of moving around the defender or facing up and shooting the mid-range jumper. If you play a smaller PF against him, he will just post up. If you double him, he's capable of passing out of the block to another big or a perimeter player.​

This gives the coaches options and creates problems for opposing teams, which is why JB has already stated (according to DC) that DC will play "the 4 or the 5". My guess is PF, for a few reasons.​

First, Although DC was an obvious Center in HS with his size, PF is his natural position in college and the NBA. He's already working on a face-up game. According to his coach at JD, he has a mid-range jumper and is even capable of shooting from the outside. Clearly, at the college level, he'll need to slim down in order to move his feet and handle the ball against better/quicker players. But I don't see this as a stretch because his post game is already there and he understands where his future is as a player.​

Second, with KJ moving on and X-Mas the lone sophomore big enough to play the 4, there will be some minutes available off-center. The 5 will have 2 junior players who are not only more experienced but also much taller. Keita can (and has) play(ed) the 4, but practice reports (and X-Mas) have him at center backing up Melo and the need for this is obvious. So the 4 looks like the most likely spot from a 'minutes'/backup standpoint.​

Third, having either Melo or Keita at center with DC at the 4 doesn't mean that DC can't guard the opposing center. This would allow Melo/Keita to block shots off the ball on defense (not DC's forte'). On offense it makes less difference -- DC can do his thing and the center can rotate into the paint for rebounds and put-backs.​

The main issue will be DC's mobility. Can he get his weight down enough (ala RJ) so he can guard the wing and blossom as a PF? I'm guessing he can, but either way, his inside offense will be a godsend.​

I will go into why I think Coleman is a 5.

First, I think that the people saying things like "he needs to get into shape" haven't seen him play much. Coleman is a big guy, but he he moves well. Is he going to get in better shape while at SU? Yes, but you can say that about every freshman at every position. I dont think Coleman has any farther to go to get in that regard than any other freshman.

That said, he is a big guy, and it takes a lot of quickness to cover the wing of the zone. Those saying "Jackson did it so Coleman can do it" are missing the point. Jackson did it out of a lack of other good options. He was never ideal for Syracuse as a 4, he played the position smart, but he gave up shots he should not have because of a lack of quickness, and if you look at the actual minutes played in his career, he played a lot more 5 than he did 4.

Unlike the last few years, with Jackson, Syracuse will have better options at the 4. Christmas and Keita are both quicker than Coleman if you want to go big, and Fair and Southerland are both viable options if you want to go small.

For those saying that Fair and Southerland are 3's, I'd say that defensively in the zone there is no difference between the 3 or the 4. You can either handle playing on the wing of the zone or you cant. I believe that both Fair and Southerland can, so I have no problem with both playing at the same time. Especially knowing we have bigger options like Christmas when we play bigger teams and need it.

So, to sum, I think Coleman is best used in the middle of the zone, and while I'm sure he could physically handle playing on the wing if he had to, I dont think he will be asked to due to other good options.

The real point of my post was that if Melo, Coleman, and Christmas take up all the minutes at the 4 and 5, I would love to see Keita red shirt, because it would do wonders for his career, both here and in the future.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I say we just run waves and waves of quality bigs at people. Being overwhelmed by size and length can be really uncomfortable.

 

[007]

I will go into why I think Coleman is a 5.

First, I think that the people saying things like "he needs to get into shape" haven't seen him play much. Coleman is a big guy, but he he moves well. Is he going to get in better shape while at SU? Yes, but you can say that about every freshman at every position. I dont think Coleman has any farther to go to get in that regard than any other freshman. quote]


You realize that some of the "people" talking about him needing the S&C once he gets to SU include the guy who has coached him for the last 4 years. He was up to/over 295 this summer. It is the overwhelming opinion of most that he needs work in this area. He is much, much larger than the "typical" freshman entering college. The transition from HS to college is that much more difficult for someone with Coleman's body type.

 

[General20]

Actually since I wrote that, I read that he has put on a lot of weight since the end of last season. If that is the case, I am wrong, but from what I saw of him during last year's games he was moving very well for a big guy.

 

[senorpalmer]

We just don't see guys red-shirted here for being too far down on the depth chart. It wouldn't be a bad idea but on this team I think it's just not happening.

I don't see Coleman being a 4 in this program, possibly ever. Certainly not as a freshman. 4's in this program are athletes, they're quick, they're big leapers, etc. Rick Jackson was something of an exception to the rule, he also had to drop a lot of weight to do it, and he still played way more center in his last 3 years.

Fab Melo at the 4? Will never happen. Not in this program, or in any possible future professional capacity.

Between those two and Keita, Rak will probably never end up at center, not to mention the coaching staff is on record saying they consider him a 4. Keita as a prospective 4 is intriguing, he has the body type to possibly pull it off for this program but his game isn't there yet.

If all 4 of those guys are all on the roster starting at this time next year, I think we may just see one of them ending up out of the rotation, sad as that may seem. These things have a way of sorting themselves out though, good or bad, we may see a declaration for the draft, a transfer, an injury, an academic issue, a suspension.

I understand that it's fun to speculate about this stuff but there's a whole season to be played before this even becomes an issue. Fab and Keita will have another year under their belts, a vastly important year in the development of many a collegiate big man, certainly in the Syracuse experience. Rak hasn't played in a game for this team yet. The bottom line is that this team should be in very good shape up front for the foreseeable future.

 

[Knicks411]

Think About Melos size in post up against a PF. If he learns to get next to his man he could be unstoppable. You would rather go Keita or Christmas instead of Melo and Coleman if they are clearly our best scoring and isolation bigs? Seriously he could be a more explosive Pau Gasol.

Yeah I don't think Melo is going to turn into a more explosive version of one of the 10-12 best players in the NBA.

Fab in no way strikes me as a 4. Doesn't have anywhere near the quickness. He's going to get out and guard the 3 point line and then get back to rebound?

 

[SouthernCuse]

If we are playing 6'8" 3's then we are beasts.

Fair/Southerland are 3s, not 4s.

 

[Upstate]

I say we just run waves and waves of quality bigs at people. Being overwhelmed by size and length can be really uncomfortable.

No kidding, my wife knows all about that..

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

I say we just run waves and waves of quality bigs at people. Being overwhelmed by size and length can be really uncomfortable.

This... the kids will figure out the playing time, but the fact is, they will all play. I personally think that Fab is getting the short-end of the stick here. He has shown flashes of what he can do, but hasn't come close to showing the consistency to leave more than a year early, IF that.

I think in a perfect world, Fab has a 8/6 or 7/7 type of season this year, foreshadowing a semi-dominant junior year. If that's the case we have options galore. Most likely our two best scoring bigs will be the true centers. So do we let Fab and Coleman split the center duties? Not a bad idea given that each has been saddled with conditioning issues in the past. Being able to go all out in a couple ten minute bursts, would a two-headed monster capable of combining for about 25 and and 15 be a possibility? And when we need offense, do we put both in at once? And if we need to just lock down on defense do we just send Baye and Rak out together to own the paint? It's going to be fun to watch.