The "Carolina Way"

[itsbotime]

This is not hard. UNC athletic staff guided student-athletes to courses they knew were not credible in order to keep them academically eligible to compete. This provided them a competitive advantage on a massive scale - certainly on a much greater scale than anything close to what happened with Cuse.

The bolded part is not true. The advisers knew the classes were easy...they did not know that

do you have any other documentation stating it was false? there were big news outlets that reported this and none seem to have back tracked. And a quick google search doesn't yield any other outlets claiming it to be false.

and not to say i am right here, but i need more than www.cracked.com to prove to me the paper wasn't real. call me crazy.

There were a number of back tracks when the thing first broke. I think Deadspin published another notable one. Unfortunately, most in the media never published a retraction. IIRC, Willingham herself even admitted that the "paper" wasn't what she claimed it was.

 

[itsbotime]

and the only people who didnt know fab didnt write the paper was kissel and the secretary.

the only difference is that ours only happened once. Yours happened with 1500 athletes and another 1600 students.

3,100 total. 25 yr postseason ban would be making off pretty good IMO.

It wasn't against the rules when Duke did it. Wasn't against the rules when Michigan did it. Wasn't against the rules when Auburn did it. And it won't be against the rules that UNC did it. Zero postseason ban coming. The NCAA owes UNC an apology.

 

[TheCusian]

The bolded part is not true. The advisers knew the classes were easy...they did not know that There were a number of back tracks when the thing first broke. I think Deadspin published another notable one. Unfortunately, most in the media never published a retraction. IIRC, Willingham herself even admitted that the "paper" wasn't what she claimed it was.

They admitted the bolded part.

Also: if it went on that long with that many people? They knew.

 

[itsbotime]

You've convinced me. It's a travesty that academics took advantage of athletes like this!

Not all academics...just two people in the AFAM department-Crowder and Nyangaro. Crowder's stated goal was not to help athletes stay eligible. She wanted to help all students stay eligible. And she figured that since she actually required work in the classes and expected competent assignments to be completed, what she was doing was not wrong. It was wrong-but it was not (IMO) an NCAA violation.

 

[rrlbees]

It wasn't against the rules when Duke did it. Wasn't against the rules when Michigan did it. Wasn't against the rules when Auburn did it. And it won't be against the rules that UNC did it. Zero postseason ban coming. The NCAA owes UNC an apology.

That's why the accreditation people called your 200 courses fraudulent. Just stop with your bs.

 

[ssbriefcase]

So where in the hell is this 600k slush fund coming from??

 

[TheCusian]

Not all academics...just two people in the AFAM department-Crowder and Nyangaro. Crowder's stated goal was not to help athletes stay eligible. She wanted to help all students stay eligible. And she figured that since she actually required work in the classes and expected competent assignments to be completed, what she was doing was not wrong. It was wrong-but it was not (IMO) an NCAA violation.

Weak. Hope that's not all that's protecting you from mammoth sanctions.

A rogue teacher wanted to get all students eligible? Why?!

 

[rrlbees]

A rogue teacher wanted to get all students eligible? Why?!

In the words of their AD at the time "to keep athletes eligible".

 

[HOFCeluck]

Did it give North Carolina a competitive advantage? Yes.

 

[CarolinaCuse]

The bolded part is not true. The advisers knew the classes were easy...they did not know that

(1) It's been well documented that UNC has admitted that these classes weren't creditble (thus, the apology to the public and promise of academic change); and (2) in what world do you live in, in which academic advising/support staff should direct students to the easiest classes. I recognize that this is the practice of many athletic support staff but it is the last thing any university academic professional should admit to doing.

 

[CusefanATL]

Did it give North Carolina a competitive advantage? Yes.

is this post accurate? Yes.

 

[CusefanATL]

Did it give North Carolina a competitive advantage? Yes.

Is docsu a Doctor? Yes.

 

[CusefanATL]

Did it give North Carolina a competitive advantage? Yes.

Is this post grammatically correct? Yes.

 

[CusefanATL]

Did it give North Carolina a competitive advantage? Yes.

Is docsu's avatar a picture of a goof ball? Yes.

 

[CusefanATL]

Did it give North Carolina a competitive advantage? Yes.

Will docsu tutor you to grow from a boy to man? a man to a gladiator? a gladiator to a swanson? Yes.

 

[CusefanATL]

Did it give North Carolina a competitive advantage? Yes.

is docsu the MVP of this thread? Yes.

Unless you think I am.

 

[CaptainJ]

is docsu the MVP of this thread? Yes.

Unless you think I am.

Am I picturing y'all doing these yeses in a Marv Albert voice? YES! Am I also picturing y'all abusing a TV prostitute? Maybe.

 

[CusefanATL]

Am I picturing y'all doing these yeses in a Marv Albert voice? YES! Am I also picturing y'all abusing a TV prostitute? Maybe.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Lol I didn't expect that.

 

[BlackKnight76]

Every school has "easy classes." In my experience, easy classes actually met as much as a normal class, and while there may or may not have been attendance, there were at least four term papers or exams.

Calling something that requires one paper that doesn't actually need to be of any quality, where there are no meetings, no interactions with a professor, and no actual standards the same as an easy course at any other school is next level insanity.

Good luck in the tournament this year, though. Cherish these moments.

 

[Macky44]

It isn't cheating. It is gaming the system, but it isn't cheating. I don't think Duke should have been punished, and I don't think UNC should be punished either. That's how this game is played, and everyone knows it. You don't take ballers with SAT scores in the 900 range and put them in colleges with a mean SAT score of 1300-1500 and expect them to be great students. The math just doesn't work.

Wow... i guess ill be the first to say it.

You are an idiot.

 

[Macky44]

Right, why wouldn't they? Duke, Michigan, and Auburn had already been caught doing the same thing, and the NCAA said "no foul." The classes didn't meet UNC's standards, but they weren't, according to the NCAA's own past rulings, violations.

You keep referencing Duke, Michigan and Auburn...stop.
If you want to play the comparison game...take what Syracuse just did and got penalized for..and look at every single SEC school in the past 20 years and getting zero punishment. What you don't want to understand clearly is that times have changed. High profile programs like Cuse and UNC are now going to be the poster programs for punishment. What UNC did is making everyone in the college game blush because they have done it since Dean Smith was on campus and havent stopped. Its an absolute joke.

 

[sert]

Good summary of what SU did:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/14/opinion/joe-nocera-syracuse-boeheim-and-the-ncaa.html?_r=1

Good read. As the fans of any school under fire can tell you, what gets bandied about by the media - especially the slinging disgraces for journalists that call themselves sportswriters (Forde) - is often incredibly far from the truth.

In defense of Carolina, I only have two points, neither of which is exonerating from an institutional or ethical standpoint, but both of which should end the NCAA's role in this saga:

1) The AD had nothing to do with the creation of these classes. Academic support staff specifically checked with higher-ups about the obvious discrepancies with these classes. They were told they were not in a position to question the pedagogy of faculty. Professors get tremendous latitude in how they manage their classes, I'm sure most of us have seen some weird in a college or grad school classroom. This professor and his assistant used that latitude poorly, and the advisers took advantage of ostensibly sanctioned slide classes.

2) The NCAA has no business telling Carolina how to teach its classes. It is not qualified to do so. It was not asked to do so. I hope it will never be asked to do so. I understand that it strains the underlying notion of the NCAA when classes seem to be so far outside of what we consider to be normal, but it is not the NCAA's place to make those determinations.

Part of why I don't care is that I have taken completely useless classes in both undergrad and law school, and I just don't care if a class is too easy, or the grading was extremely soft. I don't care if one professor graded papers while drunk, or gives the same exam that can be found in the library repository every single year, or has his grad student, or TA, or secretary, or a 17 sided dice determine grades. I have no evidence that my professors actually graded any of my papers in school, and I disagreed with many of the grades I received - in both directions. College is exactly what you make of it, and we know that many athletes took these classes seriously, did real work, and got something out of it. I also know I got a lot of good grades in classes I got nothing out of, and for which I invested very little time or effort - that is true from grade school through grad school.

I know you guys don't really care. You know the true facts about your scandal that exonerate you and make what happened no big deal. And you know the popular wisdom with respect to Carolina's scandal, and why it is totally the biggest deal ever. It honestly sounds like you guys got screwed by the NCAA. On the other hand, that $600k slush fund that everyone knows about might be the most egregious pay-to-play scandal in the history of college sports...

 

[RF2044]

Good read. As the fans of any school under fire can tell you, what gets bandied about by the media - especially the . . . . slinging disgraces for journalists that call themselves sportswriters (Forde) - is often incredibly far from the truth.

In defense of Carolina, I only have two points, neither of which is exonerating from an institutional or ethical standpoint, but both of which should end the NCAA's role in this saga:

1) The AD had nothing to do with the creation of these classes. Academic support staff specifically checked with higher-ups about the obvious discrepancies with these classes. They were told they were not in a position to question the pedagogy of faculty. Professors get tremendous latitude in how they manage their classes, I'm sure most of us have seen some weird . . . . in a college or grad school classroom. This professor and his assistant used that latitude poorly, and the advisers took advantage of ostensibly sanctioned slide classes.

2) The NCAA has no business telling Carolina how to teach its classes. It is not qualified to do so. It was not asked to do so. I hope it will never be asked to do so. I understand that it strains the underlying notion of the NCAA when classes seem to be so far outside of what we consider to be normal, but it is not the NCAA's place to make those determinations.

Part of why I don't care is that I have taken completely useless classes in both undergrad and law school, and I just don't care if a class is too easy, or the grading was extremely soft. I don't care if one professor graded papers while drunk, or gives the same exam that can be found in the library repository every single year, or has his grad student, or TA, or secretary, or a 17 sided dice determine grades. I have no evidence that my professors actually graded any of my papers in school, and I disagreed with many of the grades I received - in both directions. College is exactly what you make of it, and we know that many athletes took these classes seriously, did real work, and got something out of it. I also know I got a lot of good grades in classes I got nothing out of, and for which I invested very little time or effort - that is true from grade school through grad school.

I know you guys don't really care. You know the true facts about your scandal that exonerate you and make what happened no big deal. And you know the popular wisdom with respect to Carolina's scandal, and why it is totally the biggest deal ever. It honestly sounds like you guys got screwed by the NCAA. On the other hand, that $600k slush fund that everyone knows about might be the most egregious pay-to-play scandal in the history of college sports...

That's a very level headed post.

But what $600K slush fund are you referring to? I'm not sure if that's what you honestly believe, or whether you are poking fun of the other UNC poster who pulled that out of thin air.

 

[rrlbees]

Good read. As the fans of any school under fire can tell you, what gets bandied about by the media - especially the slinging disgraces for journalists that call themselves sportswriters (Forde) - is often incredibly far from the truth. In defense of Carolina, I only have two points, neither of which is exonerating from an institutional or ethical standpoint, but both of which should end the NCAA's role in this saga: 1) The AD had nothing to do with the creation of these classes. Academic support staff specifically checked with higher-ups about the obvious discrepancies with these classes. They were told they were not in a position to question the pedagogy of faculty. Professors get tremendous latitude in how they manage their classes, I'm sure most of us have seen some weird in a college or grad school classroom. This professor and his assistant used that latitude poorly, and the advisers took advantage of ostensibly sanctioned slide classes. 2) The NCAA has no business telling Carolina how to teach its classes. It is not qualified to do so. It was not asked to do so. I hope it will never be asked to do so. I understand that it strains the underlying notion of the NCAA when classes seem to be so far outside of what we consider to be normal, but it is not the NCAA's place to make those determinations. Part of why I don't care is that I have taken completely useless classes in both undergrad and law school, and I just don't care if a class is too easy, or the grading was extremely soft. I don't care if one professor graded papers while drunk, or gives the same exam that can be found in the library repository every single year, or has his grad student, or TA, or secretary, or a 17 sided dice determine grades. I have no evidence that my professors actually graded any of my papers in school, and I disagreed with many of the grades I received - in both directions. College is exactly what you make of it, and we know that many athletes took these classes seriously, did real work, and got something out of it. I also know I got a lot of good grades in classes I got nothing out of, and for which I invested very little time or effort - that is true from grade school through grad school. I know you guys don't really care. You know the true facts about your scandal that exonerate you and make what happened no big deal. And you know the popular wisdom with respect to Carolina's scandal, and why it is totally the biggest deal ever. It honestly sounds like you guys got screwed by the NCAA. On the other hand, that $600k slush fund that everyone knows about might be the most egregious pay-to-play scandal in the history of college sports...

Well since your AD admitted those classes were used to keep athletes eligible and since your chancellor apologized for 200 bogus courses, I'd say that doesn't jive with your garbage. And why do UNC people keep saying there was a $600k slush fund? You make things up for the hell of it?