UNC Academic Fraud Details

[Cowtown]

Too much cynicsm. UNC will get the book thrown at them, everything short of the SMU death penalty: championship disqualified, post season ban and loss of scholly's.

:rolling:

 

[Full_Rebar]

It's not that clear cut they did anything wrong.

Disagree. It's going to be interesting to see if this is a case of "lack of institutional control" or the lesser one, something to do with monitoring. It's clear that UNC staff knew that the classes were not meeting legitimate standards and were using them for eligibility purposes.

 

[RF2044]

Last I checked, easy A courses aren't NCAA violations. These courses weren't "fake"-they required work. The grading was simply lax, and they were graded by someone that shouldn't have been grading. Academic counselors steered students (athletes and non-athletes alike) needing a GPA boost to the "Easy A" courses, just like they do at every school. Duke, Michigan, Stanford...all have been caught doing similar things. Women's BB comes off poorly (they have an email on record from an assistant there noting that one of the papers was plagiarized and laughing it off), football comes off poorly (they told Crowder what grades players needed, but Crowder ignored their input since everyone got good grades in her class), basketball doesn't come off poorly.

At the end of the day this was college students flocking to easy classes to boost their GPAs. Happens every single day at every single university.

That's a laughable conclusion. There's rationalization, and then there's burying your head in the sand while repeating "see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil" over and over again in order to conveniently ignore the facts being reported.

I'm a former academic, and the notion that these were not fake classes is complete bunk. That "they required work" -- with blatant disregard to the rampant plagarism and academic fraud that was perpetrated -- is completely irrelevant. Last time I checked, having students pretend to make a token effort isn't "work." To imply that looking up information on the internet to plagarize requires "work" necessitates requires applying the loosest possible definition of what the word means. Rewriting somebody else's paper and submitting it as my own might also be said to require "work," by your definition. There's a reason why college students aren't awarded college credits for undertaking such "work."

"Work" isn't the benchmark for earning a passing grade, or for a college course being deemed appropriate for conveying a certain amount of credits. Every academic institution has clearly deliniated criteria to calculate the amount of class room time / contact time, and course work required for any specific class to qualify for 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 or more college credits. I don't even have to look up UNC's specifications to know that none of the classes socially engineered by Crowder meet the minimum thresholds of any such criteria in place at North Carolina.

You are right that many [most?] colleges have "easy A" courses, with some professors requiring less work or grading less stringently than others. Equating those type of classes to what we're hearing described at UNC under Crowder is an intellectually dishonest comparison.

 

[sdhusky]

It's not that clear cut they did anything wrong.

Huh? This is the level of academics at the #5 Public University in the country???

Nothing Wrong??? Wow. We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[rrlbees]

Last I checked, easy A courses aren't NCAA violations. These courses weren't "fake"-they required work. The grading was simply lax, and they were graded by someone that shouldn't have been grading. Academic counselors steered students (athletes and non-athletes alike) needing a GPA boost to the "Easy A" courses, just like they do at every school. Duke, Michigan, Stanford...all have been caught doing similar things. Women's BB comes off poorly (they have an email on record from an assistant there noting that one of the papers was plagiarized and laughing it off), football comes off poorly (they told Crowder what grades players needed, but Crowder ignored their input since everyone got good grades in her class), basketball doesn't come off poorly. At the end of the day this was college students flocking to easy classes to boost their GPAs. Happens every single day at every single university.

5 seperate academic counselors in the athletic department have said they steered players who couldn't compete in the classroom to these courses so that they could compete on the court or on the field.

It's a little more than lil Johnny signing up for a course because he heard mrs smith is an easy grader and it's an easy A.

 

[sdhusky]

5 seperate academic counselors in the athletic department have said they steered players who couldn't compete in the classroom to these courses so that they could compete on the court or on the field.

It's a little more than lil Johnny signing up for a course because he heard mrs smith is an easy grader and it's an easy A.

From Fox

Minnesota’s men’s basketball program a one-year postseason ban, reduced scholarships and vacated a Final Four appearance because a secretary for longtime coach Clem Haskins had written papers (with his knowledge) for at least 18 players over a five-year period. In its report, the committee described the violations as “among the most serious academic fraud violations to come before it in the past 20 years. The violations were significant, widespread and intentional. More than that, their nature — academic fraud — undermined the bedrock foundation of a university and the operation of its intercollegiate athletics program.”

On Wednesday, Kenneth L. Wainstein released the results of an independent investigation into academic fraud at the University of North Carolina so massive in scope that the word serious hardly does it justice. If three rogue employees and 18 cheating basketball players over a five-year period at Minnesota merited those strong words, what will the NCAA eventually say about a bogus-class scheme in Chapel Hill that Wainstein found to involve more than 3,100 students — 47.4 percent of them athletes — over 18 years?

 

[sutomcat]

That's a laughable conclusion. There's rationalization, and then there's burying your head in the sand while repeating over and over again "see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil" while blatantly ignoring the facts.

I'm a former academic, and the notion that these were not fake classes is complete bunk. That "they required work" -- with blatant disregard to the rampant plagarism and academic fraud that was perpetrated -- is completely irrelevant. Last time I checked, having students pretend to make a token effort isn't "work." Looking up information on the internet to plagarize also requires "work" if I apply the loosest possible definition. Rewriting somebody else's paper and submitting it as my own also requires "work." There's a reason why college students aren't awarded college credits for undertaking such "work."

"Work" isn't the benchmark for earning a passing grade, or for a college course being deemed appropriate for conveying a certain amount of credits. Every academic institution has clearly deliniated criteria for the amount of class room time / contact time, and course work required for any specific class to qualify for 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 or more college credits. I don't even have to look up UNC's specifications to know that none of the classes socially engineered by Crowder meet the minimum thresholds of any such criteria in place at North Carolina.

You are right that many [most?] colleges have "easy A" courses, with some professors requiring less work than others. Equating those type of classes to what we're hearing described at UNC under Crowder is an intellectually dishonest comparison.

Well said.

I have tried to give itsbotime the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes in its quest to land the big story, the media makes a major mistake and is just dead wrong, running a story with factual inaccuracies during to bad fact checking, inability to get additional sources to verify info, etc. We saw that with the disastrous story ESPN ran that destroyed Mark Schwartz' career as a creditable journalist.

At this point, any attempt to pooh pooh what has happened is foolish. This is the biggest academic scandal in the history of college sports and UNC needs to be punished severely to ensure these kind of unprecedented abuse never happens again.

I hope the NCAA shows a spine and throws the book at the Tarheels. And then reinstates the penalties they originally put in place on Penn State times two. If they don't, they should just close up shop and dissolve. They serve no purpose otherwise.

 

[Crusty]

5 seperate academic counselors in the athletic department have said they steered players who couldn't compete in the classroom to these courses so that they could compete on the court or on the field.

It's a little LESS than lil Johnny signing up for a course because he heard mrs smith is an easy grader and it's an easy A.

Fixed. You actually had to attend Mrs. Smith's class.

 

[sdhusky]

I hope the NCAA shows a spine and throws the book at the Tarheels. And then reinstates the penalties they originally put in place on Penn State times two. If they don't, they should just close up shop and dissolve. They serve no purpose otherwise.

]

It will be interesting to see what the NCAA does with P5 "Royalty".

With this news getting deep into the main stream media, it's looking more and more likely the NCAA will do something severe.

However, I expect the penalties to be rolled back - ala Penn St - in a year or so because of all the great progress made.

This is also bad news for SU from a timing perspective. All eyes will be on the NCAA judgement of SU.

 

[CuseHulk]

]

This is also bad news for SU from a timing perspective. All eyes will be on the NCAA judgement of SU.

First it's not (All eyes are on North Carolina) The Syracuse news last week was a mouse in a china shop.

Not shocked by your perspective. How bout you head on back to the junk yard.

 

[moqui]

]

It will be interesting to see what the NCAA does with P5 "Royalty".

With this news getting deep into the main stream media, it's looking more and more likely the NCAA will do something severe.

However, I expect the penalties to be rolled back - ala Penn St - in a year or so because of all the great progress made.

This is also bad news for SU from a timing perspective. All eyes will be on the NCAA judgement of SU.

I think this kind of cynicism is unfounded. University of Southern California football is P5 royalty, and they got absolutely hosed. That is not to say the NCAA is good, coherent or consistent. But I have to dismiss the notion that the game is rigged in favor of the "royalty". You don't need to have a vast conspiracy - venality, corruption and incompetence explains 98% of their actions.

 

[Dave85]

I think this kind of cynicism is unfounded. University of Southern California football is P5 royalty, and they got absolutely hosed. That is not to say the NCAA is good, coherent or consistent. But I have to dismiss the notion that the game is rigged in favor of the "royalty". You don't need to have a vast conspiracy - venality, corruption and incompetence explains 98% of their actions.

The problem with the NCAA is like all government institutions, anarchy is about just as good. All power corrupts so people with power are a holes.

 

[DoctorBombay]

What happens/doesn't happen to UNC will have absolutely no bearing on what happens/doesn't happen to us.
The worst thing about the NCAA is that there is no expectation standard when it comes to punishments...they're literally all over the map.

 

[AirForceOrange]

The problem with the NCAA is like all government institutions, anarchy is about just as good. All power corrupts so people with power are a holes.

 

[sutomcat]

]

It will be interesting to see what the NCAA does with P5 "Royalty".

With this news getting deep into the main stream media, it's looking more and more likely the NCAA will do something severe.

However, I expect the penalties to be rolled back - ala Penn St - in a year or so because of all the great progress made.

This is also bad news for SU from a timing perspective. All eyes will be on the NCAA judgement of SU.

Not sure how the indictment of a mass murderer affects the fate of the jaywalker, but I appreciate your attempt to connect the two.

 

[sdhusky]

Not sure how the indictment of a mass murderer affects the fate of the jaywalker, but I appreciate your attempt to connect the two.

The only point I was making that the media is going to be looking for ways to write about this.

My suspicion is that the SU story will get more pub because of the media hype around the UNC story. (kinda like what happened with the JoePa story in Syracuse)

Bad timing. Not equating the two situations.

 

[The Governor]

The difference for UNC is the huge media play this is getting. The NCAA will look like they are totally shirking their responsibilities if they don't come down with some kind of penalty.

Huge media play? Where? Around the Horn didn't mention the story, PTI didn't mention the story, Mike and Mike didn't mention the story, one 30 minute outside the lines and a quick blurb on SportsCenter is all it got from the sports media. Jeff Goodman, Andy Katz, Doug Gottlieb, Jay Bilas, Dick Vitale, none of them will touch this. Go check ESPN.com and show me all the coverage. There's a certian type of person and program that the media is willing to drop everything to destroy, the UNC coaches and administration does not fit that profile.

 

[AirForceOrange]

Huge media play? Where? Around the Horn didn't mention the story, PTI didn't mention the story, Mike and Mike didn't mention the story, one 30 minute outside the lines and a quick blurb on SportsCenter is all it got from the sports media. Jeff Goodman, Andy Katz, Doug Gottlieb, Jay Bilas, Dick Vitale, none of them will touch this. Go check ESPN.com and show me all the coverage. There's a certian type of person and program that the media is willing to drop everything to destroy, the UNC coaches and administration does not fit that profile.

Front page on CNN.Com for two days...and front page of USAToday.com is pretty big media coverage...

 

[sdhusky]

Huge media play? Where? Around the Horn didn't mention the story, PTI didn't mention the story, Mike and Mike didn't mention the story, one 30 minute outside the lines and a quick blurb on SportsCenter is all it got from the sports media. Jeff Goodman, Andy Katz, Doug Gottlieb, Jay Bilas, Dick Vitale, none of them will touch this. Go check ESPN.com and show me all the coverage. There's a certian type of person and program that the media is willing to drop everything to destroy, the UNC coaches and administration does not fit that profile.

Its getting a ton of play in the mainstream media, not the sports media.

Its a big deal.

 

[realorange]

Huge media play? Where? Around the Horn didn't mention the story, PTI didn't mention the story, Mike and Mike didn't mention the story, one 30 minute outside the lines and a quick blurb on SportsCenter is all it got from the sports media. Jeff Goodman, Andy Katz, Doug Gottlieb, Jay Bilas, Dick Vitale, none of them will touch this. Go check ESPN.com and show me all the coverage. There's a certian type of person and program that the media is willing to drop everything to destroy, the UNC coaches and administration does not fit that profile.

Well, you must have missed the national network news programs last night and this morning. Feature story complete with interviews with academics and students.

 

[AlaskaSU]

This has to take some of the heat off us, no?

The difference for UNC is the huge media play this is getting. The NCAA will look like they are totally shirking their responsibilities if they don't come down with some kind of penalty.

Just look at the NFL and Ray Rice. The NCAA is on shaky ground after its chicken sheet handling of PSU. If they blow this one sheet will hit the fan

Huge media play? Where? Around the Horn didn't mention the story, PTI didn't mention the story, Mike and Mike didn't mention the story, one 30 minute outside the lines and a quick blurb on SportsCenter is all it got from the sports media. Jeff Goodman, Andy Katz, Doug Gottlieb, Jay Bilas, Dick Vitale, none of them will touch this. Go check ESPN.com and show me all the coverage. There's a certian type of person and program that the media is willing to drop everything to destroy, the UNC coaches and administration does not fit that profile.

Tell that to anyone connected to any school that lost a game to NC in any sport over the last 20 years.

 

[IthacaMatt]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/10/22/4255098_unc-investigation-bogus-classes.html?rh=1

This went on for 18 years?? Wow. I don't know how Roy Williams will keep his job.

 

[sdhusky]

This went on for 18 years?? Wow. I don't know how Roy Williams will keep his job.

UCONN may be about to pass UNC in National Championships.

I always expected that would happen, just not this quickly

 

[rrlbees]

Front page on CNN.Com for two days...and front page of USAToday.com is pretty big media coverage...

Sara Ganim is all over this and has been for a year or more. She broke the Pedst scandal and is now with CNN.

 

[pearl31]

it's been blowing up on social media too - I've noticed facebook friends that barely follow sports all into it