Why does JB coach differently in Nov/Dec than March? | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Why does JB coach differently in Nov/Dec than March?

Granted we played well in the postseason, but we lost 5 out of our last 8 games at the end of the season.

Not trying to sound like a jerk about this. I read the original question as "when was the last time we improved over the course of the season" and despite not playing well at the end of conference play, we then went on to the Big East championship game and ultimately the Final Four. To me, that clearly demonstrates improvement over the course of the year and was only last year.
 
Ultimately, in terms of potential program limitations, it is worth considering that Boeheim has one title in 38 years. This is the same total as coaches like Rollie Massimino, Steve Fisher, Jerry Tarkanian, Nolan Richardson, Jim Harrick, Lute Olson, Tubby Smith, Tom Izzo (more Final Fours than Boeheim), Gary Williams, and John Calipari (more Final Fours than Boeheim).
I did this really quickly so may have messed this up, but in Beoheim's 38 years as coach only 20 programs have won the title. We're one of them obviously. That tells me though that even making it on to that list is really, really difficult, and only a handful got more than one in that timeframe.
 
We went the the F4 just 1 year ago and the Elite 8 2 years ago. We weren't an expected final 4 team last year but I remember plenty of posts about how great JB was. Guess he got stupid in 12 months. And if your going to mention a negative record or stat about JB that is partly driven by how many years he has coached compared to others, you should include the positive ones too.
Funny how good/smart JB got by winning a single game. (he pointed that out) So now with a lose because a 3 point shot doesn't go in he is "stupid" again
 
JB is the king of the pre-season tournament. We always seem to win the one that we are playing in. We've beaten countless top level/elite teams over the years in Nov/Dec.

We've been killing our non-conference schedule over the past 6 years, rarely losing a game.

However, March hits and we've been falling short more than achieving success. We rarely pull off the upset of a higher seeded team in March. We've been upset by upstart mid-majors more times than I care to remember. JB is the all-time leader for losses to double digit seeds in the tourney.

Programs like UK, Louisville, Michigan State, Florida, UCLA, UConn, etc have experienced significantly more success in the NCAA over the past decade than SU. Even John Beilien has had equal to more success over the last decade at WVU/Michigan. Why is JB falling short? What does he do differently in Nov/Dec than March?
Actually considering how SU limped into the 2013 BETlosing 4 of last 5 regular season, that was a year with vast improvement. SU scored like 39 in their final game against Georgetown then began a good run the final of the BET then the FF.
 
I did this really quickly so may have messed this up, but in Beoheim's 38 years as coach only 20 programs have won the title. We're one of them obviously. That tells me though that even making it on to that list is really, really difficult, and only a handful got more than one in that timeframe.

There are eleven active coaches who have a national title. Two on that list won them over twenty years ago, and Steve Fisher arguable gets partial credit.
 
I remember young Fabricio's freshman year. Pretty sure the fan base thought he got way too much "developmental time" in 2011. And D-Nic was pegged as a wasted scholarship during his first year.

JB is damned if he plays guys before they're ready, and he's damned if he doesn't.

Playing your center for 30 seconds and then taking him out the rest of the game is not development time.
 
Coach Orange said:
I offered thoughts on this thread's questions a couple of weeks ago. I figured that I would just link that here rather than typing the same response again: http://syracusefan.com/threads/is-jab-our-dave-winfield.71952/page-2#post-986524 That said, certain patterns are pretty clear in terms of the program at this point. Some of these patterns allow the program to be as successful as it is, while others limit how successful it can be. The ones that potentially limit include: [*]The lack of recruiting players with sound basketball fundamentals. [*]The lack of recruiting players with complimentary offensive skill sets. [*]The lack of team development throughout individual seasons. [*]The inconsistent player development results. [*]The tactical stubbornness. [*]The commitment to playing exclusively zone defense (which is also part of the program's success) with the occasional desperate 1-2-1-1 press thrown in. [*]The "nepotism" of the coaching staff at this time. Ultimately, in terms of potential program limitations, it is worth considering that Boeheim has one title in 38 years. This is the same total as coaches like Rollie Massimino, Steve Fisher, Jerry Tarkanian, Nolan Richardson, Jim Harrick, Lute Olson, Tubby Smith, Tom Izzo (more Final Fours than Boeheim), Gary Williams, and John Calipari (more Final Fours than Boeheim). For those who defend Boeheim by using the "Keith Smart" argument, Calipari should likewise be granted the "Mario Chalmers" defense. Does racking up more victories, many of them in the regular season against the Cornells and Colgates, really make Boeheim a better coach than some of the others listed above? One could easily contend that Boeheim's championship was earned solely because he had arguably the best college basketball player of the last 20+ years for that magical season. Though no coach wins without good talent, Boeheim detractors could claim that he has not shown the ability to win without the college game's most elite talent--once-in-a-generation talent. This argument would also then explain the once-a-decade visit to the Final Four--transcendent talents don't enter the Melo Center every day. If one accepts that premise as true, one then has to question how "elite" Boeheim's coaching (especially in terms of player development) really is. Let me make it clear that I am an admirer of Boeheim's coaching. I certainly can make a list of patterns that have led to the program's current level of success, and why these items should continue to produce similar results. Along with this, I can list the reasons we are lucky as a fans to have Coach Boeheim at the helm. I'll save that list for another post. However, asking critical questions and identifying areas for improvement are important keys to enhancing success. No one should have a "lifetime pass" from such professional (or personal) development, no matter how many "successes" he or she has on his or her resume. I would hope that Coach Boeheim encourages these vital development tools behind closed doors with his staff and players in order to improve the likelihood of future tournament success; he certainly doesn't accept critical questions or constructive comments from others well. The minute Boeheim stops asking the types of questions and making the sorts of observations that many posters here have offered over the last week or so and, more importantly, the minute he stops trying to improve and correct said issues, is the minute I no longer want him as the head coach of the Syracuse Orange. Would you?
Look I generally really like your posts and I think you make some really good points here (esp re tactical stubbornness). But I very much disagree with your point about lack of recruiting complimentary players. First, who you ultimately get is not the staffs choice, it's the players. Second, we don't control who leaves and who stays. We have been beset by early entries recently, you don't think Fab or Dion or MCW could have helped? Third, you cannot account for injuries, they happen, they hurt and they affect depth. Fourth our teams in 2010 and 2012 were probably our most complete in a long time. Fifth, this team prior to the year looked to compliment. Each other very well.
 
I just have to wonder when multiple people on this board say we're not going anywhere if we rely on CJ to be our main player this year, we play that way for the whole year and the wa-la, the season crashes and burns and were still running an iso-CJ offense and his postseason numbers were brutal.

We finally start running the offense through Ennis at end of games and magically he makes some big plays. Ennis should have been the go to guy all the time once it was established he was a stud and CJ wasn't going to make that leap we hoped he was. Play the offense through him like Florida does with Wilbekin. They have some nice role players, one shooter, similar team to us but he's the guy.

I don't proclaim to know more than JB but I could see how this season would end from my couch when we refused to change up our approach.

Then we let Dayton shorten the game with no apparent adjustments other than JB saying "make shots" at halftime to the sideline reporter? Well, we haven't been making shots aside from FSU and our first round game, maybe try to do something different since shot making is not our forte. It's like me telling my sales team who are incapable of closing to "sell" and then when I get fired because my office has horrible sales numbers I'm like well, I told them to sell but they didn't. Oh well..

If we lose to Florida because we can't make shots, fine, but against a team like Dayton there were things we could have done to overcome bad shooting and still survive and advance ie, not sitting back in a passive zone all game and running the same freakin play where Cooney comes off a screen, then CJ follows him off another screen and then shenanigans ensue or they pass it right back to Ennis with half the shot clock gone and hope he makes a play.

That's my favorite. "We just need to make shots". No, it is not that simple.

If someone is bad at math, telling them they need to just answer the math questions right, doesn't solve the problem.

Not a single thing was changed the entire season on offense. Nothing. That phrase, "just make more shots", might apply when you had one poor shooting game, those can happen, but we had MULTIPLE. For weeks. And we didn't mix up anything in our offense with the exception of more aggression from Ennis, earlier in the game.

I'm not demanding for Jimmy's head, I'm just confused why so many are not frustrated by the complete lack of development/adjustments and just keep saying all we needed to do was make more shots. Maybe I'm alone or off-base here, but I stand by it.
 
Look I generally really like your posts and I think you make some really good points here (esp re tactical stubbornness). But I very much disagree with your point about lack of recruiting complimentary players. First, who you ultimately get is not the staffs choice, it's the players. Second, we don't control who leaves and who stays. We have been beset by early entries recently, you don't think Fab or Dion or MCW could have helped? Third, you cannot account for injuries, they happen, they hurt and they affect depth. Fourth our teams in 2010 and 2012 were probably our most complete in a long time. Fifth, this team prior to the year looked to compliment. Each other very well.
This team was recruited to and built to have CJ Fair and Jerami Grant as the starting 3/4. Those guys don't compliment each other at all, nevermind the fact that no longer can you win in CBB when neither of your forwards can step out and shoot the 3 ball.
 
longislandcuse said:
This team was recruited to and built to have CJ Fair and Jerami Grant as the starting 3/4. Those guys don't compliment each other at all, nevermind the fact that no longer can you win in CBB when neither of your forwards can step out and shoot the 3 ball.
Jerami didn't start until Coleman went down and I think jb thought cj could shoot the 3 ball. He did last year.
 
Look I generally really like your posts and I think you make some really good points here (esp re tactical stubbornness). But I very much disagree with your point about lack of recruiting complimentary players. First, who you ultimately get is not the staffs choice, it's the players. Second, we don't control who leaves and who stays. We have been beset by early entries recently, you don't think Fab or Dion or MCW could have helped? Third, you cannot account for injuries, they happen, they hurt and they affect depth. Fourth our teams in 2010 and 2012 were probably our most complete in a long time. Fifth, this team prior to the year looked to compliment. Each other very well.

He said players with complimentary offensive skill sets. I took this two ways - first, our recruiting lately feels more system oriented than ever before - going after long players who will make our zone tough. We had one guy who was a 'deep threat' this year. That's just not enough in college hoops today. Who did JB expect would be able to shoot the threes besides Cooney? Clearly based on results he told Grant to stop or face sitting down. We need at least 2 guys who can regularly make 3 point shots, and one of those guys should be a small forward guy to go with the shooting guard.

Secondly, and I think this is probably more to your point (and you make some valid arguments), you have to have guys whose offensive game works together. A big who has a couple moves in the post but can kick out as well. A forward who can drive effectively but also looks for others when he is doubled. But when you have three guys whose main weapon is driving, and two big men who aren't smart enough to clear the lane for them, offensive troubles are to be expected.
 
Jerami didn't start until Coleman went down and I think jb thought cj could shoot the 3 ball. He did last year.

He only took 64 threes last year. Sure he did shoot a high percentage, but thinking he was going to be able to sustain that percentage was not ill conceived. Jabari Parker took 106 threes this year, as a freshman on a team that likes to shoot threes (meaning he wasn't the only one, or even the main shooter - 3 players shot more than him). CJ took 87 this year, and there was only one guy on the team who took more than him. We need more shooters, and we need much more balance.
 
CuseFaninVT said:
He said players with complimentary offensive skill sets. I took this two ways - first, our recruiting lately feels more system oriented than ever before - going after long players who will make our zone tough. We had one guy who was a 'deep threat' this year. That's just not enough in college hoops today. Who did JB expect would be able to shoot the threes besides Cooney? Clearly based on results he told Grant to stop or face sitting down. We need at least 2 guys who can regularly make 3 point shots, and one of those guys should be a small forward guy to go with the shooting guard. Secondly, and I think this is probably more to your point (and you make some valid arguments), you have to have guys whose offensive game works together. A big who has a couple moves in the post but can kick out as well. A forward who can drive effectively but also looks for others when he is doubled. But when you have three guys whose main weapon is driving, and two big men who aren't smart enough to clear the lane for them, offensive troubles are to be expected.
I think he was counting on Ennis and CJ to supply some ammo from deep. It's not like there weren't shooters on the team, they just didn't perform (or play). Up through Duke 1 did any of this appear to be missing?
 
CuseFaninVT said:
He only took 64 threes last year. Sure he did shoot a high percentage, but thinking he was going to be able to sustain that percentage was not ill conceived. Jabari Parker took 106 threes this year, as a freshman on a team that likes to shoot threes (meaning he wasn't the only one, or even the main shooter - 3 players shot more than him). CJ took 87 this year, and there was only one guy on the team who took more than him. We need more shooters, and we need much more balance.
Ok. I don't want to be a team that jacks a lot of threes in the half court. I want to run, pound in transition, get some threes in transition and go inside-out in the half court. That's why I've been saying that the guy a team like this needs is dion. And why I'm so looking forward to KJ.
 
Jerami didn't start until Coleman went down and I think jb thought cj could shoot the 3 ball. He did last year.
Then we have 2 Centers playing. Rak cannot be an effective PF.

You may be right about CJ.
 
I think he was counting on Ennis and CJ to supply some ammo from deep. It's not like there weren't shooters on the team, they just didn't perform (or play). Up through Duke 1 did any of this appear to be missing?

I'd say many folks were concerned about the lack of depth shooting the three ball. Everyone knows CJs game is mid-range. I had no idea what Ennis would bring to the table, but many folks were concerned about Cooney's numbers in the early season against weak competition being shaky potatoes. (See what I did there?)
 
longislandcuse said:
Then we have 2 Centers playing. Rak cannot be an effective PF. You may be right about CJ.
I don't disagree with you on point 1. Although I do think the Dc/rak combo is pretty good running the high/low stuff.
 
Ok. I don't want to be a team that jacks a lot of threes in the half court. I want to run, pound in transition, get some threes in transition and go inside-out in the half court. That's why I've been saying that the guy a team like this needs is dion. And why I'm so looking forward to KJ.

Completely fair, and I'd never want to be a team like Duke that relies completely on the long ball. See where it led them. We need a few shooters who can take and make a shot on their own when the clock is running down. I don't care where it's from, but give me a couple guys like the Harrisons or Napier and I'll be very happy. And a Grant with the ability to make a three would be devastating.
 
Not a single thing was changed the entire season on offense. Nothing. That phrase, "just make more shots", might apply when you had one poor shooting game, those can happen, but we had MULTIPLE. For weeks. And we didn't mix up anything in our offense with the exception of more aggression from Ennis, earlier in the game.
You contradicted yourself. Ennis taking charge on offense and taking it to the basket were changes. They started looking for Christmas more, for a while. They pushed the ball more. Those were changes. I'm sure there were more subtle changes that shmoes like you and me didn't notice.

My frustration is more with things JB said needed to happen that were barely attempted. Cooney driving, getting it inside to Christmas. Those things could have made a huge difference but even though JB said they had to happen, for some reason he didn't make them happen. If he can bench G for not being aggressive, you'd think he could have convinced the guys to make those plays.
 
You contradicted yourself. Ennis taking charge on offense and taking it to the basket were changes. They started looking for Christmas more, for a while. They pushed the ball more. Those were changes. I'm sure there were more subtle changes that shmoes like you and me didn't notice.

My frustration is more with things JB said needed to happen that were barely attempted. Cooney driving, getting it inside to Christmas. Those things could have made a huge difference but even though JB said they had to happen, for some reason he didn't make them happen. If he can bench G for not being aggressive, you'd think he could have convinced the guys to make those plays.

That is the purpose of the word "exception".
 
I'm a JB fan. Just longing for the post season success that mirrors his regular season success. The once a decade FF and once a half-century championship leaves me impatient. We just need to get over the hump. I thought we were on our way with last year's FF and this year's great start. It wasn't to be and we seem to be regressing to our old patterns.

This of course will never happen as the quality of opponents gets increasingly better. Quite often mid majors are simply under rated because they have not faced the same competition the major conference teams face. Who saw Dayton coming? They went on to defeat Stanford rather easily and gave Florida a very tough game.
 
GoHamSU said:
That's my favorite. "We just need to make shots". No, it is not that simple. If someone is bad at math, telling them they need to just answer the math questions right, doesn't solve the problem. Not a single thing was changed the entire season on offense. Nothing. That phrase, "just make more shots", might apply when you had one poor shooting game, those can happen, but we had MULTIPLE. For weeks. And we didn't mix up anything in our offense with the exception of more aggression from Ennis, earlier in the game. I'm not demanding for Jimmy's head, I'm just confused why so many are not frustrated by the complete lack of development/adjustments and just keep saying all we needed to do was make more shots. Maybe I'm alone or off-base here, but I stand by it.

Saying we need to make shots to a sideline reporter is keeping it short and sweet. I'm sure if he could talk less he would. You expected a sit down discussion? Ever seen a JB timeout? Lot more going on there, when he's not chewing someone's butt, than let's make more shots.
 
Not sure. I've never seen "not a single thing", "nothing", and "exception" in the same paragraph before.

Nothing was changed on offense except for more aggression from Tyler, earlier in the game. I can't quite get how you are not following this.

Outside of some more takes to the basket from our starting point guard, no adjustments on offense were apparent. How's that?
 
Saying we need to make shots to a sideline reporter is keeping it short and sweet. I'm sure if he could talk less he would. You expected a sit down discussion? Ever seen a JB timeout? Lot more going on there, when he's not chewing someone's butt, than let's make more shots.
I'm not talking about what the man says during a halftime interview. I hate those things. Gregg Popovich does too.
 

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