2004 FSU at Syracuse | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

2004 FSU at Syracuse

Still, the staff that year did a great job with what it had

Starting the season losing 51-0 to an average team on national TV and then finishing the season losing 51-14 to an average team on national TV is what did Coach P in. There's no reason we should have been so woefully unprepared to compete in either of those games.

But I certainly agree that we played valiantly against FSU. And that road win at BC was amazing.
 
Yeah, a "glorified High School team" with a phenomenal athlete at QB who single handedly won that game in Philadelphia.


Running the same play, over and over again.
 
I will give you that by 2004 we were very weak at QB and at WR.

We can debate why that was the case.

Still, the staff that year did a great job with what it had and the FSU game was a very good example of just how well that staff coached the team that year.

We went 6-6, beat BC for a share of the Big East and went to a Bowl.

The program had problems that needed to be addressed.

But, the issue was not coaching.
We hadn't recruited a decent QB in nearly a decade. That's very much on the coaching staff.

When we lost to BC the previous season they stated they knew what plays were going to run before the ball was snapped. That's coaching.

We lost to Temple that year. A team who's only other win was against Florida A&M. That is far more negative than playing a close game against a team that overlooked us to the following week's game against an undefeated top 10 ranked conference opponent is positive. That's on the coaching staff.

We were 6-6 and were part of a 4 way tie for a conference title in a 7 team conference that no longer included Miami or VaTech. That's not anything to brag about, given our non-conference blowouts.
 
If I recall correctly when PP tried to throw at the end of the game - I think in the FSU redzone - it became quite clear why the staff didn't try to throw all that much earlier in the game. We could not throw against that defense.

In addition to the Reyes fumble I recall the FSU muffed punt that the Orange should have recovered in the endzone - I seem to recall the ball going out of the endzone for a touchback.

That was a great effort by the Orange that day - and a great coaching job by a staff that was obviously completely outmanned.

I remember being told by a very good source that had he been a member of the FSU team that day, Walter Reyes would never have seen the field - that is how good the FSU personnel was.

Problem was we couldn't run against them either, specifically in the 2nd half.

Our best chances were with the home atmosphere (which was 10k light of a sellout but very active and loud), and their backup QB was awful.

Still, if that DL doesn't punch that ball out of Reyes hands and/or we don't miss 2 FGs, that would have been a celebration for the ages.
 
Putting aside the two bookend pastings that season, we were realistically close to being an 8 win team. And we would have won the Big East conference outright if not for that pathetic loss on the road to a 2 win Temple team (one of my favorite What losses of the P era).

Wonder if P would have survived on 8-4 and sole conference champions. Looking back, Gross looks bad enough for following up with GRob. It would have made it even worse.
 
I will give you that by 2004 we were very weak at QB and at WR.

We can debate why that was the case.

Still, the staff that year did a great job with what it had and the FSU game was a very good example of just how well that staff coached the team that year.

We went 6-6, beat BC for a share of the Big East and went to a Bowl.

The program had problems that needed to be addressed.

But, the issue was not coaching.

Not for nothing OPa, but if the staff had landed Joe Dailey, we probably wouldn't have been in such a dire situation at QB. I mean, Joe Fields clearly was a DB playing QB, not the other way around.

And they have noone to blame but themselves for losing Dailey - whomever thought it was a good idea to schedule him to be hosted by Dumas who was disgruntled with the program and left in the spring anyway. They're accountable to that.

They're also accountable to burning Johnnie Morant's redshirt year for what basically amounted to nothing.

With the state of the program at the time, they just didn't have the margin for error to make serious blunders like that.
 
Yeah, a "glorified High School team" with a phenomenal athlete at QB who single handedly won that game in Philadelphia.

Everybody but Florida A&M and us was able to beat Temple with that phenomenal athlete that year. I have tremendous respect for what P did for the program - it may be the best years I ever see. But you really lose credibility when you keep defending that loss.
 
Not this game, the Temple game. Win THAT layup and we're in the Fiesta Bowl and P gets another season.

Losing to a horrific Temple team was a program altering event.

probably gets an extension. Can't be a lame duck coach in D-1 football
 
Yeah, a "glorified High School team" with a phenomenal athlete at QB who single handedly won that game in Philadelphia.

couldn't find his profile on the NFL alumni page. P couldn't figure out how to stop a interior QB runs.
 
probably gets an extension. Can't be a lame duck coach in D-1 football

We would've likely gotten smoked in the Fiesta Bowl against Utah, but 7 wins and a lucrative BCS payday should have earned him a couple years with the new AD.

It's pretty amazing, if we had beat a horrific Rutgers team in 2003 and an equally horrific Temple team in 2004 there's pretty much no way P would've been fired. Say what you will about facilities and all that, but we're talking about Rutgers and Temple.
 
Starting the season losing 51-0 to an average team on national TV and then finishing the season losing 51-14 to an average team on national TV is what did Coach P in. There's no reason we should have been so woefully unprepared to compete in either of those games.

But I certainly agree that we played valiantly against FSU. And that road win at BC was amazing.


And we won six games - including a win against a decent Pitt team - and went bowling.

There were a number of very good reason why we were "unprepared" for the Purdue game.

It was scheduled fairly late in the process - we had no experience at the QB position and other positions - we were facing a great college QB and a team that was predicted by many to win the Big Ten that year - and we were playing at Purdue.

Again we can debate why our talent level by 2004 had reached an alarmingly low level.

You all know my feelings in that regard.

But in my opinion you cannot challenge how well that coaching staff handled the 2004 team and the tough opening game - getting to a bowl game and winning some solid games and coming this close to defeating a very good FSU team.

The Robinson Staff demonstrated the next year just how well Coach P and his staff coached the 2004 team.
 
And we won six games - including a win against a decent Pitt team - and went bowling.

There were a number of very good reason why we were "unprepared" for the Purdue game.

It was scheduled fairly late in the process - we had no experience at the QB position and other positions - we were facing a great college QB and a team that was predicted by many to win the Big Ten that year - and we were playing at Purdue.

Again we can debate why our talent level by 2004 had reached an alarmingly low level.

You all know my feelings in that regard.

But in my opinion you cannot challenge how well that coaching staff handled the 2004 team and the tough opening game - getting to a bowl game and winning some solid games and coming this close to defeating a very good FSU team.

The Robinson Staff demonstrated the next year just how well Coach P and his staff coached the 2004 team.


One of the reasons we declined was that losing games by scores like 0-51 were tolerated. Recruits didn't want to be on the wrong side of those games. They were huge negative advertising for the program.
14-46, 12-35, 0-49, 0-43, 0-31, 7-31, 3-31, 0-62, 13-45, 0-26, 9-33, 0-59, 7-34, 7-49, 7-51, 0-51, 14-51
Man, those were some looong afternoons. Oh Lord
 
One of the reasons we declined was that losing games by scores like 0-51 were tolerated. Recruits didn't want to be on the wrong side of those games. They were huge negative advertising for the program.
14-46, 12-35, 0-49, 0-43, 0-31, 7-31, 3-31, 0-62, 13-45, 0-26, 9-33, 0-59, 7-34, 7-49, 7-51, 0-51, 14-51
Man, those were some looong afternoons. Oh Lord


Sorry, but that's nonsense.

The problem was plain and simple - lack of funding for the Program.

That has been well-documented - time and again.

You need look no further than the fact that we finally built an indoor practice two years ago.

For some perspective on that, note that Indiana University - a very mediocre football school with no real history of success - had the Mellencamp Indoor Practice Facility by 1996 - nearly twenty years before we had the Ensley Center.

We were so far behind in the facilities war is isn't funny.

And most fans of the Program - many who purport to follow the Program very closely - had no idea how far behind we were.
 
We would've likely gotten smoked in the Fiesta Bowl against Utah, but 7 wins and a lucrative BCS payday should have earned him a couple years with the new AD.

It's pretty amazing, if we had beat a horrific Rutgers team in 2003 and an equally horrific Temple team in 2004 there's pretty much no way P would've been fired. Say what you will about facilities and all that, but we're talking about Rutgers and Temple.

We got smoked my Megatron in our bowl game anyway, Much rather would have had a chance to get smoked in Bcs bowl and get a much bigger paycheck for it.
 
Sorry, but that's nonsense.

The problem was plain and simple - lack of funding for the Program.

That has been well-documented - time and again.

You need look no further than the fact that we finally built an indoor practice two years ago.

For some perspective on that, note that Indiana University - a very mediocre football school with no real history of success - had the Mellencamp Indoor Practice Facility by 1996 - nearly twenty years before we had the Ensley Center.

We were so far behind in the facilities war is isn't funny.

And most fans of the Program - many who purport to follow the Program very closely - had no idea how far behind we were.

The lack of an indoor practice facility had nothing to do with losing to horrendous Rutgers and Temple teams.
 
I worked this game for ESPN holding a Parabolic microphone. One of the coolest experiences of my life. I still remember one of the rules was we weren't supposed to take sound from the bench but if a coach came off the sideline they were fair game. Coach Bowden came off to argue one call in particular and used some very colorful language. Those dishes really are neat, you could pick up sound from anywhere if you lined it up right. I also remember hearing Patterson's cadence from at least 40 yards away.
 
Sorry, but that's nonsense.

The problem was plain and simple - lack of funding for the Program.

That has been well-documented - time and again.

You need look no further than the fact that we finally built an indoor practice two years ago.

For some perspective on that, note that Indiana University - a very mediocre football school with no real history of success - had the Mellencamp Indoor Practice Facility by 1996 - nearly twenty years before we had the Ensley Center.

We were so far behind in the facilities war is isn't funny.

And most fans of the Program - many who purport to follow the Program very closely - had no idea how far behind we were.


Indiana's winning percentage since they built their IPF is .336: 93 wins and 184 losses. Ours is .463: 118 wins and 137 losses. So the IPF, while convenient, doesn't seem to have been all that critical.

I would suggest national TV blow-outs have a bigger impact, at least if you are trying to maintain your reputation as a national power.
 
When we lost to BC the previous season they stated they knew what plays were going to run before the ball was snapped. That's coaching.
Syracuse beat BC decisively at the Dome in 2003.
 
Indiana's winning percentage since they built their IPF is .336: 93 wins and 184 losses. Ours is .463: 118 wins and 137 losses. So the IPF, while convenient, doesn't seem to have been all that critical.

I would suggest national TV blow-outs have a bigger impact, at least if you are trying to maintain your reputation as a national power.


Steve - As you may or may not know, I attended IU. I have a relationship with the school. It would take hours to explain the history of IU Football - why the Program is what it is and has been where it has been. I suspect that you have no real understanding of what is probably, from a statistical standpoint, the worst performing football program in NCAA history.

I am certain, based upon what I know, that Syracuse University does not have - and never has had - the kind of limitations that have negatively impacted IU Football.

For that reason, the effort to compare the programs in the way you have sought to do is not valid in my opinion.

What I don't think you understand - and could not be expected to understand - is that we could build a "Taj Mahal" football facility in Bloomington, and it would make little difference in the success of the Program. There are just too many other factors that have blunted the impact of the vast amount of money that has been spent on the program.

The Syracuse Football experience has been quite different than the IU Football experience. Jim Brown at IU? Ernie Davis at IU? Don McNabb at IU? No. Our stars at IU have been guys like Tom Nowatzke, Harry Gonso, Joe Norman and Anthony Thompson.

And yet the IU Program - as bad as it has always been - has been far better funded than the Syracuse Program.

I know for a fact that the lack of funding for the Syracuse Program had a direct impact on recruiting starting during the McNabb years.

No weight room. No indoor facility. An insufficient training room. AstroTurf. Insufficient funding of the coaching staff. (I was there in 2011 when Doug Marrone made it very clear that at that point the Program was dead last in the Big East in terms of football infrastructure. I remember him complaining that we didn't even have basic training room facilities that were desperately needed.)

All of that - and the rise of other programs such as Rutgers, UConn and Pitt - led to a reduction in talent - and a less competitive team in 2004.

The 51-0 loss at Purdue - I was there and had to live through that - was the product of a lack of talent.

And, yet, at the end of the 2004 season at the BC game - I was there and rejoiced with the rest of the SU fans in the stadium - the Purdue game was a distant memory - it had no impact that day. That 2004 season was I believe the coaching staff's shining moment. It took a depleted team to a co-championship and a bowl game - it gave FSU a game to the very end. And it was fired because too many folks had no real understanding of the Syracuse Football Program. And we have paid for that misunderstanding for more than a decade.

I could go through my media guides and come up with winning scores that would bury the scores you picked out in preparing your post.

But that would be a futile exercise in my opinion - because the scores of the games are the rabbits. Money - funding - is the elephant that best explains what happened to Syracuse Football.






And that has to do with a lot of things the most important of which, really, is the complete lack of football tradition at the school.

The fact is that for years very few have cared all that much about football at IU.

So,

Trust me, there really is no comparison between the two schools when it comes to football.

And for that reason, even the
 
The 2004 season was an indictment on the fall of Coach P. We were mediocre. After the last decade and 3 years we would take mediocre.

Could P have used better facilities of course. Should we have fired him after giving him a vote of confidence a few weeks earlier? Of course not. Change was needed at Syracuse the problem was the school didn't invest in the facilities till almost 6 years after P left and they hired an incompetent over his head bad defensive coordinator as P's replacement.

P wasn't as good a coach as Marrone. Give Doug the 2004 team we don't get blown out 51-0 or 51-13 or the beatdowns at WVU/UVA and who knows about Temple.
 
maybe Jake and P were railing at Buzz behind the scenes but at some point the good soldier routine has to stop and they needed to go public about the funding
 
Syracuse beat BC decisively at the Dome in 2003.
My bad. Maybe I'm thinkjng the previous year when they beat up on us.

Regardless, there was a quote in the paper from their head coach following one of the games toward the end of the PP era. It put an exclamation point on how predictable our offense had become. I had season tickets at that point and routinely heard people yell out the play (certainly not the specific verbage but the general play) prior to the ball being snapped.
 
My bad. Maybe I'm thinkjng the previous year when they beat up on us.

Regardless, there was a quote in the paper from their head coach following one of the games toward the end of the PP era. It put an exclamation point on how predictable our offense had become. I had season tickets at that point and routinely heard people yell out the play (certainly not the specific verbage but the general play) prior to the ball being snapped.
It is pretty sad for BC then that they lost three of their last four games against Pasqualoni.
 
Steve - As you may or may not know, I attended IU. I have a relationship with the school. It would take hours to explain the history of IU Football - why the Program is what it is and has been where it has been. I suspect that you have no real understanding of what is probably, from a statistical standpoint, the worst performing football program in NCAA history.

I am certain, based upon what I know, that Syracuse University does not have - and never has had - the kind of limitations that have negatively impacted IU Football.

For that reason, the effort to compare the programs in the way you have sought to do is not valid in my opinion.

What I don't think you understand - and could not be expected to understand - is that we could build a "Taj Mahal" football facility in Bloomington, and it would make little difference in the success of the Program. There are just too many other factors that have blunted the impact of the vast amount of money that has been spent on the program.

The Syracuse Football experience has been quite different than the IU Football experience. Jim Brown at IU? Ernie Davis at IU? Don McNabb at IU? No. Our stars at IU have been guys like Tom Nowatzke, Harry Gonso, Joe Norman and Anthony Thompson.

And yet the IU Program - as bad as it has always been - has been far better funded than the Syracuse Program.

I know for a fact that the lack of funding for the Syracuse Program had a direct impact on recruiting starting during the McNabb years.

No weight room. No indoor facility. An insufficient training room. AstroTurf. Insufficient funding of the coaching staff. (I was there in 2011 when Doug Marrone made it very clear that at that point the Program was dead last in the Big East in terms of football infrastructure. I remember him complaining that we didn't even have basic training room facilities that were desperately needed.)

All of that - and the rise of other programs such as Rutgers, UConn and Pitt - led to a reduction in talent - and a less competitive team in 2004.

The 51-0 loss at Purdue - I was there and had to live through that - was the product of a lack of talent.

And, yet, at the end of the 2004 season at the BC game - I was there and rejoiced with the rest of the SU fans in the stadium - the Purdue game was a distant memory - it had no impact that day. That 2004 season was I believe the coaching staff's shining moment. It took a depleted team to a co-championship and a bowl game - it gave FSU a game to the very end. And it was fired because too many folks had no real understanding of the Syracuse Football Program. And we have paid for that misunderstanding for more than a decade.

I could go through my media guides and come up with winning scores that would bury the scores you picked out in preparing your post.

But that would be a futile exercise in my opinion - because the scores of the games are the rabbits. Money - funding - is the elephant that best explains what happened to Syracuse Football.






And that has to do with a lot of things the most important of which, really, is the complete lack of football tradition at the school.

The fact is that for years very few have cared all that much about football at IU.

So,

Trust me, there really is no comparison between the two schools when it comes to football.

And for that reason, even the


No weight room? Here is a segment from my "Facilities" post of a couple of years back:

"The 1982 Yearbook has an article on our weight room at that time. Mike Woicik, our strength and conditioning coach, who later wrote a book on the field and became the S&C guy for the Dallas Cowboy’s Super Bowl winners on the 90’s, is quoted as saying “The administrative support has been great. They’ve expanded the weight room for us, purchased new equipment and supplied us with just about everything we need.” The article says that before Woicik, “there was no one to either design or administer a much needed strength program. In past years, winter was a time when the coaches took to the recruiting trail and athletes were pretty much left on their own. Since Woicik’s arrival, the winter months have produced some of the athlete’s greatest gains in strength….Woicik’s program at Syracuse, barely a fledgling at two years old, has already seen 13 athletes surpass the 400-pound mark for a bench press. And there were several others hovering just below that figure…For years, one of the most respected weight programs in the East has been at the University of Maryland, under the guidance of former coach Jerry Clairborne. In eight years there, Clairborne’s program yielded 20 players who could bench press more than 400 pounds.

I remember that what brought us back in that era was a hard-hitting defense. The exciting offensive players came later. It wasn’t just attitude or scheme. Woicik’s weight room had a lot to do with that. “I think that the SU coaches understood that in order to be competitive with Penn State, Pittsburgh and some of the other teams on our schedule, we had to step up our efforts in weight training.” The article went on: “-So the commitment was made. Woicik was hired in the summer of 1980. During the following year, the Manley Field House weight room was switched to a much bigger location. More equipment of all types was purchased and put into use. The new equipment included benches, squat racks, Olympic bars and weights. Nautilus machines and wall-mounted pull-up stations. Woicik summed up the new commitment to weight training: ‘What we need, we have. It wasn’t like that two years ago.’”
 

Forum statistics

Threads
167,603
Messages
4,714,816
Members
5,909
Latest member
jc824

Online statistics

Members online
107
Guests online
2,108
Total visitors
2,215


Top Bottom