2010 or 2012?

[bpo57]

Not to be a downer on the 2010 team but to say they were the best team with AO is a stretch. Of their final 7 Big East Games (including the Georgetown Big East Game) Louisville beat us twice and the Georgetown game was over when AO got hurt. We were going to lose that game with AO. We had a 2 game losing streak heading in to the NCAA tournament.

In the NCAA tournament, Louisville lost by 14 in the first round to California and Georgetown got blown out by 14 seed Ohio in the first round. Not stellar performances and maybe a sign the Big East was very overrated that year.

The 2010 team was good but the argument that they were the best team if AO had been available has no proof behind it. There is a lot of conjuncture in that argument. Would they have had a better chance to defeat Butler with AO, probably, but no guarantee they would have won the title. Michigan State made the final four (and lost to Butler) without their best player int he tournament. It would have been nice to see us play at full strength but the facts are we lost in the sweet 16 game. Butler's game plan was brilliant in terms of playing defense against us, very similar to what Louisville had done to us twice.

Totally agree with you. No doubt the AO injury hurt a lot and we'll never know but I didn't see that squad winning the whole thing. We peaked too early. Also the 2010 RJ version was nowhere near the 2011 version. IMO he was a bit of a liability back then.

 

[pfister1]

andy rautins was a better scorer than dion waiters and kris joseph?

lol. i love andy more than anyone here. grew up with his family. andy wasnt a 'scorer', he was a shooter. he hit about 30 2's in his career and 300 3's.

I think he was a scorer in that it was hard to keep him from getting his shot off.

 

[SWC75]

Fully healthy, 2010. 2012 had an edge only in depth and shot blocking and since we are basically going with 7 guys now, the depth edge is gone.

 

[heresjohnny88]

2010 had everything but depth. We had 7 "starters" but the drop-0ff was enormous after that. Riley was nowhere near ready to play important minutes. But with everyone healthy, that 7 man rotation was awesome. Perfect amount of everything. And I'm still waiting for this 2012 team to have a game like the 2010 team did against Nova in the dome. Closest I've seen to that this year was the first half against Marquette.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Put that 2010 team in this years Big East and they go undefeated.

 

[jekelish]

injuries and ft's are part of the game.

a kansas fan would say everyone knows they would have rolled to champ if they made ft's.

2010 wasnt as good because they couldnt take 1 injury to any of the 7 players. the team was dead with 1 injury in the tournament and everyone knew it the second it happened. thats a major flaw that cant be ignored.

Off topic, but that's BS about Kansas. They scored more off of offensive rebounds from their missed FTs than they would have if they'd made them. The point is invalid.

 

[Mistakebythelake90]

On thing that I think that people are taking for granted is turnovers on both teams. The 2010 team was fairly turnover prone - scoop was more bad scoop and less good scoop in 2010, and both andy and wes were good for at least 1-2 impossible pass/turnovers a game. The 2012 team is much better at taking care of the ball.

 

[CusefanATL]

Off topic, but that's BS about Kansas. They scored more off of offensive rebounds from their missed FTs than they would have if they'd made them. The point is invalid.

no offense, but that sounds like a politician's argument...

http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/no_kansas_did_not_choke/

so your overall point could be somewhat valid that kansas was more efficient (this cuse fan doesnt mention, and i dont remember, if we scored off of a missed ft) but kansas only scored 6 points off of ft misses, not 19 or more which you stated.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

At full health...which team would you chose to run with in the tourney? I think its about even..this team is deeper and more talented but 2010 had more experience, i think more leadership and better 3 pt shooting.

Idk, its a toss up

I remember when we had this discussion with 2010 vs 2003. People were saying 2003, hands down. Then if you said 1987 vs 2003, people would probably say 1987 hands down. Of course if you said 1926 Helms Champions vs 1987, you would probably get a few old timers who would say 1926. (Just kidding, I'm pretty sure the 1987 team could beat the 1926 team. No answer for DC).

 

[jdubs30]

I know I'm going back in time here; but Wayne Seimien (spelling?) was out for KU in 03 for the natl' title game, if he plays that game is a totallly different story.

atl is right, injuries are part of the game; it might have got us our first ship, but cost us our second one.

 

[pfister1]

I know I'm going back in time here; but Wayne Seimien (spelling?) was out for KU in 03 for the natl' title game, if he plays that game is a totallly different story.

atl is right, injuries are part of the game; it might have got us our first ship, but cost us our second one.

He missed 22 games that season. He was injured in early Jan. tried to make a couple back in mid-Feb. then put it on the shelf. They would be a totally different team with him, but maybe they don't even make the Final Four. Obviously on paper they'd be a better team with him available, but its hard to know how having him would impact the team in reality....maybe Collison doesn't have the opportunity to develop into the stud he was? Different than the AO injury where you had an important cog that was taken away with no time to adjust to losing him.

 

[arrow2arinzesknee]

I will say this until I see a better team,

2010 Syracuse was the best college basketball team I have ever seen play

it wasn't about comparing defenses or depth or scoring
it isn't about winning or losing more games as like we have said the Big East in 2010 was also the deepest conference college basketball has ever seen as opposed to this years version.

the basketball that was played that year was absolutely beautiful, there were 7 players who worked together flawlessly, knew each others strengths, and the ball movement good god the ball movement!

They were a threat inside and out to score and Rautins was always there with a dagger when you needed it.

With that being said, the depth on this team makes them more prepared for a tournament run and their non-reliance on one particular player makes them all the more scary. But like 2010 if Fab goes down its gonna be hard to recover.

and lets face it even without AO that team beats Butler 95 out of 100 times
and they just couldn't finish


in terms of pure basketball I would say
1. 2010
2. 2012
3. 2003

To compare teams from the late 80's with them is too hard to do IMO

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Not to be a downer on the 2010 team but to say they were the best team with AO is a stretch. Of their final 7 Big East Games (including the Georgetown Big East Game) Louisville beat us twice and the Georgetown game was over when AO got hurt. We were going to lose that game with AO. We had a 2 game losing streak heading in to the NCAA tournament.

In the NCAA tournament, Louisville lost by 14 in the first round to California and Georgetown got blown out by 14 seed Ohio in the first round. Not stellar performances and maybe a sign the Big East was very overrated that year.

The 2010 team was good but the argument that they were the best team if AO had been available has no proof behind it. There is a lot of conjuncture in that argument. Would they have had a better chance to defeat Butler with AO, probably, but no guarantee they would have won the title. Michigan State made the final four (and lost to Butler) without their best player int he tournament. It would have been nice to see us play at full strength but the facts are we lost in the sweet 16 game. Butler's game plan was brilliant in terms of playing defense against us, very similar to what Louisville had done to us twice.

UCONN beat us 3 times in 2003. Ditto for Gtown in 1987.

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[Fairlylegal]

If there's one thing this board loves to dwell on it's...

"If we had a healthy AO in 2010 we would've cut down the nets"

Just can't go a week on this board without hearing it.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

If there's one thing this board loves to dwell on it's...

"If we had a healthy AO in 2010 we would've cut down the nets"

Just can't go a week on this board without hearing it.

JB should have three championships: 1987, 2003 and 2010. That's the god's honest truth.

 

[cap2nine]

I usually cringe when any “what if” question pops-up regarding the 2010 team but this is pretty intriguing. Seems that the consensus here is leaning pretty heavily toward 2010 but I’m not so sure that it would be a lopsided match-up.

I think that 1-6, the 2010 team was more talented. However, I think our 2012 team has more upside and given more time would supersede its predecessor. This year’s team has greater depth, is better from the free-throw line and is FAR better at protecting the ball. 2010 was more dynamic and complete on offense and better on the boards.

But, who would win?

For me, the question comes down to which team would have more success cracking the others zone. From there it’s pretty simple. Our 2012 group has inexplicably had difficulty against zones, even with Scoop, Triche, Waiters, KJ and Fair, (all capable of driving to the basket) they have often settled for jumpers and 3s. The 2010 had better shooters and a better inside game and was more successful against zone defenses.

So, in the end, I have to side with the majority and say that 2010 wins. With one caveat… if the 2012 squad could force a close game in the final minutes I would give them the edge to pull it out. They have proven this year that they can do what’s necessary to win a tight game.

 

[moqui]

If there's one thing this board loves to dwell on it's...

"If we had a healthy AO in 2010 we would've cut down the nets"

Just can't go a week on this board without hearing it.

I don't know whether they would have won - there is a lot of luck involved, but I do know, to a moral certainty, that they were the best team in the nation with AO. And, Syracuse fans are not the only ones who think that. Coach K, the guy who benefited from that misfortune and won the whole thing that year, said so himself. So did Bobby Knight. Two guys who know as much about what it takes to win the NCAA tournament as anyone (and more than most).

My vote goes to the 2010 team, which I think is probably the best SU team in the whole time I have been watching them. I used to go with 1989, but I have switched over to 2010.

 

[senorpalmer]

UCONN beat us 3 times in 2003. Ditto for Gtown in 1987.

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Only lost to UCon twice in 03 (along with Memphis, Pitt and Rutgers)

 

[cusetown1]

Just a few questions, did JB ever tell the 2010 team that they could win the NT at the beginning of the year? He did this year. Did the 2010 get the extremely glowing post game comments from the opposing teams coaches? They have had a ton of them this year. Did the 2010 team beat Louisville or Pitt? This team did. The 2010 team barely lost to a winless in conference team This team did not. We make this comparison a month ago and I'm sure many more would say the 2012 team hands down. No this team doesn't have the low post scoring or the shooting of Rautins and Wes, or rebounding. When shooting well this team is one of the best teams I have ever seen, so go ahead and laugh. This year's team has all of the intangibles. Their defense, steals, transition game, free throw shooting, blocking ability is at the best it has ever been. I also think we are starting to see a floor general emerge in Scoop, which the 2010 team didn't have. What I'm trying to say is, I really, really like this team. If Dion can get his head on straight and if they can shore up their rebounding, and Southerland get his shot back, watch out! Those aren't really big ifs either. BTW I don't groan anymore when Melo gets fouled, I know he has a great chance of making his free throws unlike AO.
And lastly, the number 1 reason why this team is better than 2010 is because Buzz Williams says so. He coached against both. LOL

 

[moqui]

did JB ever tell the 2010 team that they could win the NT at the beginning of the year?

yes, and not just secretly to the team, but to Andy Katz as well

Did the 2010 get the extremely glowing post game comments from the opposing teams coaches?

yes, after nearly every game

Did the 2010 team beat Louisville or Pitt?

No, but the 2012 team didn't play teams as good as 2010 Louisville or Pitt, did they? And, this team struggled to beat the 2012 versions of those Pitt and Ville teams that are mere shadows of what they were in 2010

The 2010 team barely lost to a winless in conference team This team did not.

This team struggled to beat Rutgers; that team did not. See, I can play the false equivalency game, too.

We make this comparison a month ago and I'm sure many more would say the 2012 team hands down.

yeah . . . it's not a month ago. Judge the team as it is.

No this team doesn't have the low post scoring or the shooting of Rautins and Wes, or rebounding.

that's a lot of limitations when making a head to head comparison.

When shooting well this team is one of the best teams I have ever seen,

once every six games or so?

so go ahead and laugh. This year's team has all of the intangibles. Their defense, steals, transition game, free throw shooting, blocking ability is at the best it has ever been.

but it is coming against a very suspect schedule, so you have to take all that into consideration

I also think we are starting to see a floor general emerge in Scoop, which the 2010 team didn't have.

Andy was a terrific lead guard and his examples of unselfishness on both ends of the floor are what made that team special.

What I'm trying to say is, I really, really like this team.

glad you cleared that up, I couldn't tell

If Dion can get his head on straight and if they can shore up their rebounding, and Southerland get his shot back, watch out!

if, if, if . . .

Those aren't really big ifs either.

yeah, they are

BTW I don't groan anymore when Melo gets fouled, I know he has a great chance of making his free throws unlike AO.

finally, that is one point in your favor

 

[cusetown1]

He must've not told it to Scoop, because this was the first time he ever told him that.

 

[Knicks411]

I think 2010 suffers from a bit of the halo effect (and I know I have said this before) because of
1) The injury to AO, and
2) I think they did peak a bit early.

You can't disprove the point "with AO, we win the title." Of course you can't prove it either, but the point is in a single elimination tournament, you never know what's going to happen. I think we make the FF with AO that year, and I think we have as good a shot of anyone as winning, no question, but you never know. The narrative around that team is a lot different if we have AO, make the final four, and go out in a tough game to Duke or Michigan State or whoever.

And the team didn't play as well down the stretch, as has been pointed out they lost twice to Louisville and had pretty much lost to Gtown before AO got hurt. No shame in those losses, but the defense had seemingly regressed. Still one of the best teams in the country, but as I have said before, the narrative for that team was basically written when we smoked UNC and it was going to be hard for that to be changed. (For all the talk about the defense, that team finished 18th in the country in defensive efficiency; we were 16th last year and are 15th right now. I would be curious to see how the narrative would've changed if instead of beating a UNC team that everyone thought was going to be great,we beat a team that ended up as good as them, but without the name of UNC).

All that being said, I am still not sure which way I go. I think it would be pretty close, I don't see a reason to think either team is all that much better than the other. I'll give the edge to 2010 right now, because I think AO may have been able to get Fab in trouble.

 

[HakAttack]

2010's like your first girlfriend. She may have been ugly, you may never have had sex with her, but damn, was it great!

No one's ever going to say anything bad about 2010, because we were a juggernaut that year, and it allows us to play the ultimate "what if?" game.

I'd prefer the girlfriend I have now, (2012) that has a better record, warts and all.

 

[cusetown1]

2010's like your first girlfriend. She may have been ugly, you may never have had sex with her, but damn, was it great!

No one's ever going to say anything bad about 2010, because we were a juggernaut that year, and it allows us to play the ultimate "what if?" game.

I'd prefer the girlfriend I have now, (2012) that has a better record, warts and all.

hit the nail on the head.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

2010's like your first girlfriend. She may have been ugly, you may never have had sex with her, but damn, was it great!

No one's ever going to say anything bad about 2010, because we were a juggernaut that year, and it allows us to play the ultimate "what if?" game.

I'd prefer the girlfriend I have now, (2012) that has a better record, warts and all.

What if you don't have sex (NC/FF) with this girlfriend either.

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