3 Final Fours in 37 years - Great? Good? OK? Underachieving?

[Cuseregular]

Good post CR, I think a lot of people feel the way you do, its hard to argue that SU hasnt had some bad losses in the tourney, I am not even going to mention the nuclear meltdown/doomsday scenario we avoided last year. When you say you feel overall its probably underachieving do you look at that from a strictly tournament results perspective or do other issues come into play?

strictly tourney at most levels in it. Just win baby is what they base you on for right or for wrong.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Let's not forget the guy taht hit that 3 shot like 15% from 3 all year.

One that really bothered me if it was us--Scottie Reynolds vs. Pitt in 08 to go the Final 4, they let him dribble the length of the court and get the game winning layup as time expired, no one even tried to step infront of him.

Great point, I still cant believe that went in. Also on teh first three, Butlers coach called a To with like 3 seconds on the shot clock, every person watching knew they were going to jack a long 3, how we didnt have it covered I will never know.

If theres one team who has had it worse its by far Pitt, they have lost some tourney games in ways I cant even imagine.

 

[bpo57]

The most remarkable thing about JB is that his program has never really had a bad year. The consistency over 37 years has been essentially unmatched in all of college basketball. You can look at the best programs and they have all had down periods, even if very briefly. JB's track record in the BET has also been stellar. JB's track record in the NCAAs has been good but not great. Too many flameouts to lower seeds to put it in the great category but that is somewhat mitigated by some great runs- 1996 was amazing and if SU had made a FT here or there in 1987 he'd have two NCs, which ain't shabby - and some bad luck (Fab and AO for example).

 

[themole]

Mildly underachieving compared to the overall record. At least last year he broke through to the Elite 8 again.

1995/Arkansas was awful, but I bet if we'd gone to the FF that year, Wallace wouldn't have stuck around the next. It's almost as if the 1996 run was a makeup FF from the hoops gods for that blasted timeout.

2010 was horrible simply because there was no dominant team and a FF could have been a cakewalk and a title oh-so-achievable. Sigh. As I have said before, in the "Fringe" alternate universe, AO didn't get injured and SU beat Duke for the title. Heh.

 

[PoppyHart]

The shot from Smart went through with 4 seconds on the clock. In today's game, the clock would have stopped and we may have actually got a semi-decent shot off.

For years, though, I could never understand why we waited until .01 was left to call TO.

 

[Orangezoo]

You could call it underachieving - I guess. You could also call it unlucky - I guess. For SU's sake I would say that in both 2010 and 2012 we snuck into getting our 1 seed. With the information that was distributed right before the tourney we were able to get our 1 seed. Realistically we easily could have been moved down considering the circumstances. Recently ,some of the more frustrating losses were such as those against Marquette in the 2nd round, Alabama in the Sweet 16 ( that bracket was really setting up nicely for us - didnt grab the opportunity), Vermont of course, Oklahoma in the sweet 16 ( we looked shell shocked against that trapping zone-press) and then of course the past two times we have had #1 seeds.

Success is certainly cyclical and you look to recruiting first. I look at what we have this year and what is coming next year and can see a program thats setup to make consecutive runs. We were all somewhat blindsided by the success in 2010 and 2012. Part of it was the relative unknowns regarding new players or the development of 2nd year players. Next year we bring a haul of freshmen recruits to go along with a decent talent base. Unlike the Frosh years of Forth/Hak/Pace - the cupboard is not full of drama and no hope. Add that to the possibility of adding a player like Whitehead to Mccullough and the rich get richer. You could certainly fall on the side of favoring the occasional fall into obscurity and then a return with vengeance and a title - but personally watching a team every year that is in the hunt is a pleasure. Our frustrations boil over to acting like we are a mid major team at the bottom of the horizon league - but its fun to be following a team that is a dissapointment when they fall out of the top 15 and are not a lock to get to the sweet 16.

 

[PhatOrange]

In the same time period where does Syracuse rank? Who has equal or more final fours, elite 8's, sweet 16's ?

 

[NKR1978]

Gene Keady, Lou Carneseca, Rollie and Norm Stewart are considered legends in college basketball and none of them can hold JB's jock. While there have been some disappointments in the NCAA, he somehow manages to have more championship appearances and Sweet 16 appearances than all but a handful of coaches.

 

[tbonezone]

when you finally bring home that big pink giraffe from the carnival your aim might rightly be judged by how many balls it took you to win the damn thing. did it take one bucket of balls or say maybe...37 ?

 

[bpo57]

The shot from Smart went through with 4 seconds on the clock. In today's game, the clock would have stopped and we may have actually got a semi-decent shot off.

For years, though, I could never understand why we waited until .01 was left to call TO.

To be honest, I don't think we ever did call a TO - our guys were in shock.

 

[realorange]

when you finally bring home that big pink giraffe from the carnival your aim might rightly be judged by how many balls it took you to win the damn thing. did it take one bucket of balls or say maybe...37 ?

Nah. Just the fact you finally got it is what counts.

 

[thebigeast44]

It's not 3 FF's - it's 3 Championship Game appearances - a very important distinction in my mind. And we are not one of the elite programs in college basketball. We're a near elite but not on the level of Kentucky, Duke, NC, Kansas etc. Proper expectations for the SU program are most years - top 4 in conference, semi's of the conference tournament and a Sweet 16 appearance. Once every 5 years a legitimate chance to win it all. And once every decade an appearance in the championship game. We've been even better of late having legitimate chances to win it all in 2010 and 2012 but we all know what happened to our Centers.

This is who we are and wishing we were an elite program will not make it so. If you want regular appearances in the Final 4, then you should root for one of the elite programs. Otherwise, set your expectations accordingly and Let's Go Orange!

 

[orangecuse]

I can still see DC clanging those free throws that would have made Keith Smart's shot irrelevant and clinched the '87 title. Think that would change a few minds and make people feel better with 2 titles?

No doubt. Triche also missed his front end of the one & one before DC...and Monroe only converted 1 of 2 prior to that. So, out of a potential 6 points down the stretch very late in the game...we get 1 point...and the unfortunate history in that aftermath. Damn, just typing that made me remember the taste of those tears again...

 

[strumpfasaurus]

Lets compare it to Connecticut. Both of us had three championship game appearances. Connecticut is 3-0 and we are 1-2. We had to play a damn good Indiana team and lost at a buzzer beater, possibly the greatest basketball team since UCLA dynasty in Kentucky in 96. We finally broke through in 03 against a good Kansas team. Connecticut Beat a freaking good Duke team I will give them that, a mediocre Georgia Tech team after Chris Bosh left and possibly the greatest abomination in college basketball against Butler. None the less 2010 and 2012 sucked, and I never saw the hype about the 1995 team. Weren't they 20-10 and had like a seven seed?

 

[rrlbees]

Has to be at least good. You can't compare against ourselves or our own expectations. I would compare against all programs and if 3 and 1 is better than 80% of the other programs then it is a B.

Sent using my Commodore 64

 

[tbonezone]

there are also those oldtimer robin yount type of stats. you can tend to run up some lofty numbers if you can stick around the game long enuf. was robin yount a great player...sure. alltimer...?

 

[strumpfasaurus]

there are also those oldtimer robin yount type of stats. you can tend to run up some lofty numbers if you can stick around the game long enuf. was robin yount a great player...sure. alltimer...?

Didn't know happy hour had started early today.

 

[tbonezone]

you prefer paul molitor? big game changer.light maybe. long career. certainly.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Some bad luck in the past few years with AO and Fab. 'Bad luck' in '87. No chance in '96 against 12 NBA players at Kentucky.

I think the word "legendary" bandied about is ridiculous. How many legends are there? He's prominent in the record books. I actually don't believe he's respected by the coaching fraternity and media as much as is portrayed. He's a big name and people talk because they talk.

I started at SU in 85 and never really liked him as a coach. He (the teams) did some wonderful things in the past 28 years, but some maddening things as well.

I've said this before (even started a thread about it): I have a sense that how you feel about JB and his 'accomplishments' has a great deal to do with your expectations and when you first became attached to SU. When i came along, we had Pearl and Seikaly, and the next year Coleman, and we went to the championship. While i was at SU, we recruited the #1 player in Billy Owens. We were ranked Pre-Season #1 during my early years. My frame of reference is there. If you came to us at a lower point, anything above that is possibly gravy to you.

I'm entirely loyal to our program. Not loyal at all to any one person, and that includes its head. I don't think it's at all contradictory to proclaim love of something and in the same breath acknowledge its faults. I worry about people who can't do that or can't even see those faults. JB does some wonderful things. He also does some batsh!t stupid stuff. It's that mix that is maddening.

 

[tbonezone]

if you want to call the IU smart shot luck well then you have to also nullify john wallace's 3 pointer or pass.

 

[thebigeast44]

Zelda - You're a member of a decently sized fraternity in Syracuse that has never much cared for JB. And by now he will never change those people's opinion of him. And guess what - he doesn't give a damn. As for your comment that people in the profession don't respect him, I think you're nuts. You don't get in the HOF if you're not respected. You're not chosen by Coach K to be an Olympic team coach without being respected. I could go on and on but suffice it to say, I'll take those examples over the opinion of any internet poster.

 

[anomander]

Big East Conference Titles don't count for anything? Neither do Big East Tournament Titles? The Big East Tournament titles have been pretty exciting in their own right. How many other schools can list the accomplishments we have? I can die a happy man saying I witnessed my team win a title. I am happy with 1, not at all. I thought I would be living with the 87 heart break forever. Take the title away, you may be able to say it's been slightly disappointing, but that 1 chip goes a long way. If it wasn't for the early departures (Navy, Richmond, Vermont, Texas AM, Marquette), and the 2 Johnny Flynn years this would be an easy answer.

 

[anomander]

Some bad luck in the past few years with AO and Fab. 'Bad luck' in '87. No chance in '96 against 12 NBA players at Kentucky.

I think the word "legendary" bandied about is ridiculous. How many legends are there? He's prominent in the record books. I actually don't believe he's respected by the coaching fraternity and media as much as is portrayed. He's a big name and people talk because they talk.

I started at SU in 85 and never really liked him as a coach. He (the teams) did some wonderful things in the past 28 years, but some maddening things as well.

I've said this before (even started a thread about it): I have a sense that how you feel about JB and his 'accomplishments' has a great deal to do with your expectations and when you first became attached to SU. When i came along, we had Pearl and Seikaly, and the next year Coleman, and we went to the championship. While i was at SU, we recruited the #1 player in Billy Owens. We were ranked Pre-Season #1 during my early years. My frame of reference is there. If you came to us at a lower point, anything above that is possibly gravy to you.

I'm entirely loyal to our program. Not loyal at all to any one person, and that includes its head. I don't think it's at all contradictory to proclaim love of something and in the same breath acknowledge its faults. I worry about people who can't do that or can't even see those faults. JB does some wonderful things. He also does some batsh!t stupid stuff. It's that mix that is maddening.

probation killed us. we were rolling in those days. that was fun

 

[jncuse]

You must remember that a major part of the Jimmy B era (1992-2008) was marked by very solid teams, but not superb teams that you cannot expect to make the final four. We made a bunch of tourneys... were a 4 or 5 seed several times...but only once were we a 3 seed, and we won the National Title. With only one team above a 4 seed in that 17 year period, we won a title, and also lost the final. 4s and 5s lose fairly frequently in round one, and only twice did we lose (Vermont and Texas AM (when we were overseeded)). 2004/2005 were disappointing, But overall in this period, with relatively modest teams, we actually did very well in the tourney.

The 2009-2012 period was one of resurgence. With two 3 seeds, and two 1 seeds, sure it would be reasonable to expect more than one elite 8... its a little underwelmin. At the same time, it is a period of really bad luck -- Onauku and Melo.

88-91, I was not following te team much but from afar that seems like a disappointing part of our history. I believe we made one elite 8, and more was expected -- also embarrassing 2-15 defeat, when difference between a 2 and a 15 is larger than today. To be fair the period back ended a year that we could ave won te national title as a 2 seed.

Not really informed about pre 1986.

Overall, when we assess our tourney success, we need to remember that the Jimmy B era is marked by consistently solid teams, and not many superb 1 or 2 seed teams (except for a few periods).

 

[strumpfasaurus]

You must remember that a major part of the Jimmy B era (1992-2008) was marked by very solid teams, but not superb teams that you cannot expect to make the final four. We made a bunch of tourneys... were a 4 or 5 seed several times...but only once were we a 3 seed, and we won the National Title. With only one team above a 4 seed in that 17 year period, we won a title, and also lost the final. 4s and 5s lose fairly frequently in round one, and only twice did we lose (Vermont and Texas AM (when we were overseeded)). 2004/2005 were disappointing, But overall in this period, with relatively modest teams, we actually did very well in the tourney.

The 2009-2012 period was one of resurgence. With two 3 seeds, and two 1 seeds, sure it would be reasonable to expect more than one elite 8... its a little underwelmin. At the same time, it is a period of really bad luck -- Onauku and Melo.

88-91, I was not following te team much but from afar that seems like a disappointing part of our history. I believe we made one elite 8, and more was expected -- also embarrassing 2-15 defeat, when difference between a 2 and a 15 is larger than today. To be fair the period back ended a year that we could ave won te national title as a 2 seed.

Not really informed about pre 1986.

Overall, when we assess our tourney success, we need to remember that the Jimmy B era is marked by consistently solid teams, and not many superb 1 or 2 seed teams (except for a few periods).

Interesting that 96-2003 we had 2 championship appearances and a title while not getting better than a 3 seed. While 05-12 we had 2 ones and 2 three's and nothing to show for it.