3 Final Fours in 37 years - Great? Good? OK? Underachieving?

[AZOrange]

Why isn't terrible an option? God this thread is goofy.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Zelda - You're a member of a decently sized fraternity in Syracuse that has never much cared for JB. And by now he will never change those people's opinion of him. And guess what - he doesn't give a damn. As for your comment that people in the profession don't respect him, I think you're nuts. You don't get in the HOF if you're not respected. You're not chosen by Coach K to be an Olympic team coach without being respected. I could go on and on but suffice it to say, I'll take those examples over the opinion of any internet poster.

You're misrepresenting what i said and/or not understanding what i wrote.

• Didn't say he's not respected. I'm suggesting that the level of actual respect for his coaching ability isn't the same as the amount of lipservice respect he gets by broadcasters. He's been around a long time. He's made friends and connections. Guys like Bilas and Raftery like him.

• He doesn't give a damn about opinions? I would assert that he absolutely does. He's human. Anyone who doesn't care, even in the slightest, is so far into arrogance that they'd be insufferable. Oh, wait — maybe that's what's happening. No, actually, i completely believe he's a good fellow. I've said often that i like him, personally. For the most part. I detest his ornery attitude and inability to 'suffer fools,' but to him, everyone is a fool...

• He got into the HOF because that's what happens when you win that many games. It's a building. It's an honor. They have to have pretty simple passages to get into it — milestones and the like that are simple enough that people understand why they're in there. Has nothing to do with a panel's qualitative assessment of his abilities. Chosen by Coach K? They're friends, no? JB is supposed to bring a certain skillset to the table. And, he gets along with K. We're not talking about JB being named as the Head Coach. Heck, Hopkins is there, too. Are you saying K respects Hop more than Calhoun or Pitino or Brey or Izzo or...

• "never much cared for JB" is a reduction of the truth. I don't dislike him. My 'not caring for him' can best be expressed by a dismissal of the hype that goes along with him. I simply have never seen a reason to feel he's as good as the publicity. And, to echo Gottlieb (just threw up in my mouth a little), "great? No." We've played a few teams this year who i feel have better coaches. And, that's just our schedule, this year. So, while his milestone and accomplishments may put him into the "great" league, i don't believe his coaching is in that same league. Many people wrap all that up into the same ball of discussion. I separate things. A person can preside at the head of a great program with great accomplishments, but still not be great at what he, in particular, does. Whether people like or can acknowledge that kind of nuance is another matter.

• Back in the day, the talk about JB was decidedly different than it is now. When certain jobs became open, other coaches were mentioned. Not JB. When people talked about who were the best in-game strategists, JB was not mentioned. When people talked about preparation and player development, JB wasn't mentioned. And, none of those things have changed. What has changed is the win total and the publicity. JB himself commonly says he's the same coach he was back then. It's the perceptions of some that have changed. And, people evaluate based on different criteria. To not accept that is silly. I don't disagree with opinions that JB is a great coach. I tend to disagree with the reasons why. More nuance. Sorry.

• This, again, is just my opinion, as i've not seen an actual poll... But, i'd wager that if you asked the top 10 'basketball minds' who they'd choose as a coach, from any school, from any era — to coach one game, or one season — JB wouldn't be in the top 10 or 20 of coaches named. This is way speculative and perhaps out of bounds, but it's the kind of conceptual thinking that i find more interesting that a simple measurement of 900+ wins. And, that's the kind of respect i was referring to. Not the simple 'do you respect JB or not' kind of thing. Of course the answer is 'yes' in the latter situation.

 

[thebigeast44]

You're misrepresenting what i said and/or not understanding what i wrote.

• Didn't say he's not respected. I'm suggesting that the level of actual respect for his coaching ability isn't the same as the amount of lipservice respect he gets by broadcasters. He's been around a long time. He's made friends and connections. Guys like Bilas and Raftery like him.

• He doesn't give a damn about opinions? I would assert that he absolutely does. He's human. Anyone who doesn't care, even in the slightest, is so far into arrogance that they'd be insufferable. Oh, wait — maybe that's what's happening. No, actually, i completely believe he's a good fellow. I've said often that i like him, personally. For the most part. I detest his ornery attitude and inability to 'suffer fools,' but to him, everyone is a fool...

• He got into the HOF because that's what happens when you win that many games. It's a building. It's an honor. They have to have pretty simple passages to get into it — milestones and the like that are simple enough that people understand why they're in there. Has nothing to do with a panel's qualitative assessment of his abilities. Chosen by Coach K? They're friends, no? JB is supposed to bring a certain skillset to the table. And, he gets along with K. We're not talking about JB being named as the Head Coach. Heck, Hopkins is there, too. Are you saying K respects Hop more than Calhoun or Pitino or Brey or Izzo or...

• "never much cared for JB" is a reduction of the truth. I don't dislike him. My 'not caring for him' can best be expressed by a dismissal of the hype that goes along with him. I simply have never seen a reason to feel he's as good as the publicity. And, to echo Gottlieb (just threw up in my mouth a little), "great? No." We've played a few teams this year who i feel have better coaches. And, that's just our schedule, this year. So, while his milestone and accomplishments may put him into the "great" league, i don't believe his coaching is in that same league. Many people wrap all that up into the same ball of discussion. I separate things. A person can preside at the head of a great program with great accomplishments, but still not be great at what he, in particular, does. Whether people like or can acknowledge that kind of nuance is another matter.

• Back in the day, the talk about JB was decidedly different than it is now. When certain jobs became open, other coaches were mentioned. Not JB. When people talked about who were the best in-game strategists, JB was not mentioned. When people talked about preparation and player development, JB wasn't mentioned. And, none of those things have changed. What has changed is the win total and the publicity. JB himself commonly says he's the same coach he was back then. It's the perceptions of some that have changed. And, people evaluate based on different criteria. To not accept that is silly. I don't disagree with opinions that JB is a great coach. I tend to disagree with the reasons why. More nuance. Sorry.

• This, again, is just my opinion, as i've not seen an actual poll... But, i'd wager that if you asked the top 10 'basketball minds' who they'd choose as a coach, from any school, from any era — to coach one game, or one season — JB wouldn't be in the top 10 or 20 of coaches named. This is way speculative and perhaps out of bounds, but it's the kind of conceptual thinking that i find more interesting that a simple measurement of 900+ wins. And, that's the kind of respect i was referring to. Not the simple 'do you respect JB or not' kind of thing. Of course the answer is 'yes' in the latter situation.

Zelda - you're certainly entitled to your opinion of course. And your opinion is JB does not live up to his reputation and there are multiple coaches better than him out there. Including several we have played against this year. Your opinion is no different than those I've heard in Syracuse through the years. I'd argue that he gets less respect in Syracuse among some SU fans than he gets on a national basis. For those who feel he has underachieved, I'd say the biggest reason why is because they overrate the talent we have recruited throughout the years. I'm not saying that is the reason you do not hold him to higher esteem but it is a common reason I've found. Too many people in Syracuse think we're on the same level as Duke, NC, Kansas, Kentucky etc. We're not. For the talent he has brought in, I think he has had a tremendous career. I can just imagine what he would have accomplished if he had all the McD AA's the elite schools get.

I'm not going to argue that he is the best of all time. But he is among the best who have ever lived IMHO. Ultimately, you are what your record says you are. And his record speaks for itself. By the way, you mentioned that there are several coaches he has faced this year you regard as better than him. I'd be interested in knowing who they are. Cheers and Let's Go Orange!

 

[kirbivore]

I can still see DC clanging those free throws that would have made Keith Smart's shot irrelevant and clinched the '87 title. Think that would change a few minds and make people feel better with 2 titles?

Uncle Howie also missed a front end of a one and one with a minute and change left.

 

[kirbivore]

Not only that but the last 4 minutes played out like it was straight out of the SU collapse handbook. Butler guy hits a 3 from NBA range with the shot clock at 1, SU has two horrific turnovers, Butler hits another 3 where the shot hit the back rim bounced up to the ceiling and somehow went in, Rautins misses a wide open 3, KJ gets shoved out of the way on a putback to seal it.

Also JB went to the stall too early and the refs missed an out of bounds on a Butler save.

 

[kirbivore]

You could call it underachieving - I guess. You could also call it unlucky - I guess. For SU's sake I would say that in both 2010 and 2012 we snuck into getting our 1 seed. With the information that was distributed right before the tourney we were able to get our 1 seed. Realistically we easily could have been moved down considering the circumstances. Recently ,some of the more frustrating losses were such as those against Marquette in the 2nd round, Alabama in the Sweet 16 ( that bracket was really setting up nicely for us - didnt grab the opportunity), Vermont of course, Oklahoma in the sweet 16 ( we looked shell shocked against that trapping zone-press) and then of course the past two times we have had #1 seeds.

I'm always upset losing in the NCAA's, but I don't see the OU game from 2009 in the same league as those other games listed. They were the higher seed and had the best player on the court by a mile.

 

[kirbivore]

Lets compare it to Connecticut. Both of us had three championship game appearances. Connecticut is 3-0 and we are 1-2. We had to play a damn good Indiana team and lost at a buzzer beater, possibly the greatest basketball team since UCLA dynasty in Kentucky in 96. We finally broke through in 03 against a good Kansas team. Connecticut Beat a freaking good Duke team I will give them that, a mediocre Georgia Tech team after Chris Bosh left and possibly the greatest abomination in college basketball against Butler. None the less 2010 and 2012 sucked, and I never saw the hype about the 1995 team. Weren't they 20-10 and had like a seven seed?

Stumbled with a 3-7 mark in their last 10 before the NCAA tourney. Loads of talent that didn't quite fit together right. Had Arkansas dead to rights and that region opened up with games against #6 Memphis and #4 UVA if Moten doesn't lose his head. IMO Final Four is as far as they go. I don't see them beating the Stackhouse/Wallace UNC team that year.

 

[kirbivore]

there are also those oldtimer robin yount type of stats. you can tend to run up some lofty numbers if you can stick around the game long enuf. was robin yount a great player...sure. alltimer...?

Another reason Pearl was critical to the fortunes of JB and SU. After the 1980 upset to Iowa, the three follow up years to the Louie and Bouie show were NIT, NIT, NCAA 2nd round. No Pearl, no upward trajectory in the 80's and maybe JB gets canned.

 

[bszbsz]

With all the talk about JB and if he is slowing down and nearing the end, I was curious as to how the fanbase feels about the tournament success under Coach. His 900+ career wins, BE tournament titles, BE road record, 20+wins seasons, recruiting, repeated success, are all off the charts and the reason why he is a legend and a hall of famer. But I was curious if some of the diehard fans feel a bit frustrated to see teams like Mich State, Lville, Duke etc in the final four every few years while our appearances seem to be once a decade at best. I think its clear that in the past few years we have had two of the best teams of the JB era and due to extenuiating circumstances (especially 2010) we lost out on what should have been another final four and possibly a championship. How much better would JB's record look and how would the fanbase be with a second title and another final four appearance?

It is not the lack of final fours, Calhoun only had 4, it is the lack of elite 8s. Only 5 in 37 and 1 since we won our only ring is honestly an embrasement. If we compare JB to the other top tier coaches at high major schools, whether it be active, retired, or no longer alive, JB is one of the worst if not THE worst come dance time.

It is a hard pill to swallow, but it has always been the thing about JB that has far and away bothered me the most.

 

[Marsh01]

The shot from Smart went through with 4 seconds on the clock. In today's game, the clock would have stopped and we may have actually got a semi-decent shot off.

For years, though, I could never understand why we waited until .01 was left to call TO.

I have steadfast maintained that if you watch the replay, when the ball comes out of the net and Rony catches it, he is reaching up to call a timeout. Steve Alford then slaps the ball out of his hand which distracts Rony and he doesnt end up calling the TO. Then he looks around at his teammates to see if someone actually called a time out. I am 100% convinced that if Alford doesnt knock the ball out of his hands, Rony calls a TO.

The clock stopping thing would have been huge. Damn then for making this rule change after our game.

 

[Knicks411]

I have steadfast maintained that if you watch the replay, when the ball comes out of the net and Rony catches it, he is reaching up to call a timeout. Steve Alford then slaps the ball out of his hand which distracts Rony and he doesnt end up calling the TO. Then he looks around at his teammates to see if someone actually called a time out. I am 100% convinced that if Alford doesnt knock the ball out of his hands, Rony calls a TO.

The clock stopping thing would have been huge. Damn then for making this rule change after our game.

I was gonna ask when they changed that rule, because it's something I notice every time I see the highlight.

 

[bszbsz]

Also, another thing that really hurts his legacy is how poorly our players (obviously except for melo) have done in the NBA.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Another reason Pearl was critical to the fortunes of JB and SU. After the 1980 upset to Iowa, the three follow up years to the Louie and Bouie show were NIT, NIT, NCAA 2nd round. No Pearl, no upward trajectory in the 80's and maybe JB gets canned.

Bad Granville Waiters flashbacks.

 

[jdubs30]

Also, another thing that really hurts his legacy is how poorly our players (obviously except for melo) have done in the NBA.

I hate this stigma. It's 100% up to the player if they make it in the league. Either you have the talent or you don't. Georgia Tech has more players in the NBA than Michigan State does; so if people want to say Hewitt prepared his guys for the NBA better than Izzo did, go for it. Do people really think that if someone like Darryl Watkins went to UNC instead of Syracuse he'd be a starting C in the league?

Coaching obviously helps. But the player has to have elite level talent regardless. Hakim Warrick was a 2 star, which shows either he a little late to mature into his game, or that he was extremely underrated by scouting services; I do not believe it means JB created a miracle and got someone in the league who didn't have the talent to get there in the first place.

The notion that guys like Coach K or Calhoun took people who were averaging like 5ppg as a senior in HS and made them into NBA players is ridiculous. You get into the NBA based on your skill set and how hard you work.

 

[bszbsz]

I hate this stigma. It's 100% up to the player if they make it in the league. Either you have the talent or you don't. Georgia Tech has more players in the NBA than Michigan State does; so if people want to say Hewitt prepared his guys for the NBA better than Izzo did, go for it. Do people really think that if someone like Darryl Watkins went to UNC instead of Syracuse he'd be a starting C in the league?

Coaching obviously helps. But the player has to have elite level talent regardless. Hakim Warrick was a 2 star, which shows either he a little late to mature into his game, or that he was extremely underrated by scouting services; I do not believe it means JB created a miracle and got someone in the league who didn't have the talent to get there in the first place.

The notion that guys like Coach K or Calhoun took people who were averaging like 5ppg as a senior in HS and made them into NBA players is ridiculous. You get into the NBA based on your skill set and how hard you work.

While it obviously rests with the players ultimately does not take away from the fact that many people do think that this is a crutch on the legacy because of our glaring lack of players making the leap. Also Emeka Okafor and Jeremy Lamb were both three star recruits coming out of HS. But, JBs use of the zone may have something to do with our lack of success.

 

[Flora'cuse]

If Arinze does not get hurt, we would have 2 Championships

 

[ForeverOrange]

I hate this stigma. It's 100% up to the player if they make it in the league. Either you have the talent or you don't. Georgia Tech has more players in the NBA than Michigan State does; so if people want to say Hewitt prepared his guys for the NBA better than Izzo did, go for it. Do people really think that if someone like Darryl Watkins went to UNC instead of Syracuse he'd be a starting C in the league?

Coaching obviously helps. But the player has to have elite level talent regardless. Hakim Warrick was a 2 star, which shows either he a little late to mature into his game, or that he was extremely underrated by scouting services; I do not believe it means JB created a miracle and got someone in the league who didn't have the talent to get there in the first place.

The notion that guys like Coach K or Calhoun took people who were averaging like 5ppg as a senior in HS and made them into NBA players is ridiculous. You get into the NBA based on your skill set and how hard you work.

It may be true that it's 100% up to the player if they make it in the league. There is one thing that has slowly started to become a reputation for Syracuse players, and that is, they don't play good defense because they are used to the zone. From Wallace down to Melo have been holding that tag, so whether it is true or not perception slowly starts to become reality.

 

[ForeverOrange]

If Arinze does not get hurt, we would have 2 Championships

We really need to stop with the "IF" championships, I am sure there's a lot of teams that think the same thing, hell I am sure Uconn fans think IF they were in our bracket they would have 4 Championships because they swept us that year. We have 1. I am glad I got to witness it.

 

[JeremyCuse]

We really need to stop with the "IF" championships, I am sure there's a lot of teams that think the same thing, hell I am sure Uconn fans think IF they were in our bracket they would have 4 Championships because they swept us that year. We have 1. I am glad I got to witness it.

Ya I gotta agree with you here, as good as that 2010 team was they still got beat pretty convincingly by Lville twice and we were losing that Gtown game when AO got hurt. Not saying we wouldnt have won and I think a final four appearance was a lock but theres no way you can say we definitely would have won.

 

[OttoMets]

Any specific years in your mind where you feel the team underachieved on what could have been a final four year? To me 2005 jumps out, I honestly felt that if we could have gotten by that Vermont game somehow we were going on a long run, still haunts me.

Same.

I'm never going to stop playing "what if" with a couple calls (UConn and BC; all 10 of Warrick's Vermont turnovers), missteps (coughing up the 22-5 lead at Pitt), and other unlucky incidents (especially the seeding/placement nightmare) that season.

Third scorer or no, that was a Final Four team.

 

[OttoMets]

Some bad luck in the past few years with AO and Fab. 'Bad luck' in '87. No chance in '96 against 12 NBA players at Kentucky.

I think the word "legendary" bandied about is ridiculous. How many legends are there? He's prominent in the record books. I actually don't believe he's respected by the coaching fraternity and media as much as is portrayed. He's a big name and people talk because they talk.

I started at SU in 85 and never really liked him as a coach. He (the teams) did some wonderful things in the past 28 years, but some maddening things as well.

I've said this before (even started a thread about it): I have a sense that how you feel about JB and his 'accomplishments' has a great deal to do with your expectations and when you first became attached to SU. When i came along, we had Pearl and Seikaly, and the next year Coleman, and we went to the championship. While i was at SU, we recruited the #1 player in Billy Owens. We were ranked Pre-Season #1 during my early years. My frame of reference is there. If you came to us at a lower point, anything above that is possibly gravy to you.

I'm entirely loyal to our program. Not loyal at all to any one person, and that includes its head. I don't think it's at all contradictory to proclaim love of something and in the same breath acknowledge its faults. I worry about people who can't do that or can't even see those faults. JB does some wonderful things. He also does some batsh!t stupid stuff. It's that mix that is maddening.

Really good post...except too many people are misusing "luck" as it relates to Fab.

Luck comes into play when somebody's quad tendon ruptures after a routine jump, or when the committee underseeds you and matches you up against a good mid-major two hours from their campus.

Luck doesn't have much to do with things you have control over - for instance, a kid everyone knows to be a checked-out student who allegedly should be meeting all sorts of benchmarks in order to play and practice. Fab's situation represented a personal failing, for sure. And some kind of institutional breakdown. But not bad luck.

 

[orangecuse]

Also, another thing that really hurts his legacy is how poorly our players (obviously except for melo) have done in the NBA.

That is such a fallacy, even moreso than Marrone eats and is full of baloney. You make it in the NBA based upon one's pure talent level. Now, if you want to say that JB contributed to someone's success by making that person grow up, mature, etc., that's one thing, but once a player leaves the program, his individual talent and work ethic will determine his success and longetivity. Plain and simple...

 

[JeremyCuse]

Same.

I'm never going to stop playing "what if" with a couple calls (UConn and BC; all 10 of Warrick's Vermont turnovers), missteps (coughing up the 22-5 lead at Pitt), and other unlucky incidents (especially the seeding/placement nightmare) that season.

Third scorer or no, that was a Final Four team.

I think I blocked out that Pitt game ditto for Uconn. I remember 2005 being a really weird year for a lot of the reason you noted. We then seemed to catch fire and after winning the BE tourney I was pretty shocked by not only our seed but the opponent. I remember seeing a lot about Vermont that year and I kept thinking to myself, anyone but them anyone but them, of course sure enough.

 

[OttoMets]

I think I blocked out that Pitt game ditto for Uconn. I remember 2005 being a really weird year for a lot of the reason you noted. We then seemed to catch fire and after winning the BE tourney I was pretty shocked by not only our seed but the opponent. I remember seeing a lot about Vermont that year and I kept thinking to myself, anyone but them anyone but them, of course sure enough.

We played so well in New York. It had a very different feel from our run the next year - no "magic," just hard work and some methodical wins. Roberts and Watkins, I thought, were really becoming good college players.

Everything went wrong after that. Bad seed for us (should've been 2/3), bad seed for them (people were talking 10 or 11 for them), bad location, bad calls, classic Syracuse tightening of the gameplan and subs, classic opponent hitting crazy shots.

 

[Marsh01]

I think I blocked out that Pitt game ditto for Uconn. I remember 2005 being a really weird year for a lot of the reason you noted. We then seemed to catch fire and after winning the BE tourney I was pretty shocked by not only our seed but the opponent. I remember seeing a lot about Vermont that year and I kept thinking to myself, anyone but them anyone but them, of course sure enough.

They had a 26 RPI. We lost to a 9-10 seed.