3 Final Fours in 37 years - Great? Good? OK? Underachieving? | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

3 Final Fours in 37 years - Great? Good? OK? Underachieving?

We played so well in New York. It had a very different feel from our run the next year - no "magic," just hard work and some methodical wins. Roberts and Watkins, I thought, were really becoming good college players.

Everything went wrong after that. Bad seed for us (should've been 2/3), bad seed for them (people were talking 10 or 11 for them), bad location, bad calls, classic Syracuse tightening of the gameplan and subs, classic opponent hitting crazy shots.

Good point about the classic syracuse tightening of the gameplan, that game played out nearly the same way as the Butler game. SU gets down early (of course) seems a bit flat, is missing bench players (suspension vs injury in 2010), makes a run but game is still to close for comfort, does a good job of shutting down the main scoring threat (Coppenrath) but gets burned by a role player who has the game of his lifetime, and then as you noted the ridiculous shots start flying in including the half court prayer that you knew as soon as he pulled up to shoot was going in. Of course with a chance to salvage the game a regular Gmac dribble hits a dead spot in the floor and the ball shoots sideways like it was shot out of a gun out of bounds. UGH If I could choose one game to erase from my memory thats it by far.
 
They had a 26 RPI. We lost to a 9-10 seed.

I agree, no way should we have been playing Vermont, SU gets stuck with underseeded opponents all the time, Texas A&M, Indiana State etc.
 
Calhoun took people who were averaging like 5ppg as a senior in HS and made them into NBA players is ridiculous. You get into the NBA based on your skill set and how hard you work.

A coach can teach a work ethic.

Okafor was going to a midmajor before Calhoun saw him very late. After watching for 10 minutes, he almost cried when he realized how lightly they had been recruiting him.

Ray Allen wasn't considered good enough to play in the ACC.

Ben Gordon was turned down by Duke for Ewing.

Butler was a NBA player the day he walked on the campus.

Kemba Walker was highly regarded in HS but almost invisible nationally after his sophomore season at UCONN.

But really, I think a big difference is the guys each coach wants. JB wants guys who fit into his system which is a college system with zone defense.

Calhoun's always said he picked athletes and body types over polished basketball players because he could teach them basketball but he can't teach them to jump higher and have longer arms.
 
A coach can teach a work ethic.

Okafor was going to a midmajor before Calhoun saw him very late. After watching for 10 minutes, he almost cried when he realized how lightly they had been recruiting him.

Ray Allen wasn't considered good enough to play in the ACC.

Ben Gordon was turned down by Duke for Ewing.

Butler was a NBA player the day he walked on the campus.

Kemba Walker was highly regarded in HS but almost invisible nationally after his sophomore season at UCONN.

But really, I think a big difference is the guys each coach wants. JB wants guys who fit into his system which is a college system with zone defense.

Calhoun's always said he picked athletes and body types over polished basketball players because he could teach them basketball but he can't teach them to jump higher and have longer arms.

Any good coach can talk the talk about work ethic, but only the individual can do it and has to be self-disciplined, self driven to do it, work at it, day after day. And, no, he can not teach athleticism or talent. Talent trumps everything, bare none...don't kid yourself. If GMac or Steve Alford and the likes, etc. had more sheer athleticism, they would've made it in the NBA as they certainly had the work ethic and desire...just not enough athletic talent, which, again, no one can teach...
 
Any good coach can talk the talk about work ethic, but only the individual can do it and has to be self-disciplined, self driven to do it, work at it, day after day.

True.

But you have to admit some coach's teams work harder than others. And hard work is a habit and skill that can be developed.
 
Any good coach can talk the talk about work ethic, but only the individual can do it and has to be self-disciplined, self driven to do it, work at it, day after day. And, no, he can not teach athleticism or talent. Talent trumps everything, bare none...don't kid yourself. If GMac or Steve Alford and the likes, etc. had more sheer athleticism, they would've made it in the NBA as they certainly had the work ethic and desire...just not enough athletic talent, which, again, no one can teach...

I love Gmac but his off-season conditioning program amounted to literally going fishing from everything I've read.
 
True.

But you have to admit some coach's teams work harder than others. And hard work is a habit and skill that can be developed.

Yes, a habit (I wouldn't call hard work a skill as talent has nothing to do with working hard), but certainly not one that will make you an NBA player if the extent of the underlying talent isn't there. So, again, getting back on point, individual talent is by far what determines whether an individual will make it in the NBA.
 
Yes, a habit (I wouldn't call hard work a skill as talent has nothing to do with working hard), but certainly not one that will make you an NBA player if the extent of the underlying talent isn't there. So, again, getting back on point, individual talent is by far what determines whether an individual will make it in the NBA.


But really, I think a big difference is the guys each coach wants. JB wants guys who fit into his system which is a college system with zone defense.

Calhoun's always said he picked athletes and body types over polished basketball players because he could teach them basketball but he can't teach them to jump higher and have longer arms.
 
I love Gmac but his off-season conditioning program amounted to literally going fishing from everything I've read.

Well, I have no idea...can't always believe what you read. :) If true, Gmac probably (deep down) knew all along that he didn't possess the borne athleticism required. But, the premise of my point is that I don't care how hard your work ethic is, it will not turn you into an NBA success if the underlying physical talent/athleticism isn't there.
 
But really, I think a big difference is the guys each coach wants. JB wants guys who fit into his system which is a college system with zone defense.

Calhoun's always said he picked athletes and body types over polished basketball players because he could teach them basketball but he can't teach them to jump higher and have longer arms.

But really...not really. JB wants/picks guys that he knows/thinks he can actually get, AND, that will fit his system. If JB could routinely land that high blue chip/NBA sure thing types, uh, well, he's not stupid...he would...if he could. SU, traditionally, has never been that type of school that lands that type (in numbers) so he does the next best thing, gets players that fit his program that he believes gives him the greatest chance for success...
 
A coach can teach a work ethic.

Okafor was going to a midmajor before Calhoun saw him very late. After watching for 10 minutes, he almost cried when he realized how lightly they had been recruiting him.

Ray Allen wasn't considered good enough to play in the ACC.

Ben Gordon was turned down by Duke for Ewing.

Butler was a NBA player the day he walked on the campus.

Kemba Walker was highly regarded in HS but almost invisible nationally after his sophomore season at UCONN.

But really, I think a big difference is the guys each coach wants. JB wants guys who fit into his system which is a college system with zone defense.

Calhoun's always said he picked athletes and body types over polished basketball players because he could teach them basketball but he can't teach them to jump higher and have longer arms.
Yeah yeah. Every guy in the NBA who wasn't a 5 star recruit has their own story about how colleges turned them down but they made it anyway.

So if Okafar, with his immense talent (he was really incredible in college), happened to go to Syracuse, would he have been a total bust in the league (he hasn't been great, but very solid) ?

Coaches do make a difference, but Okafor clearly proved how he was a high D1 talent, I think that would have shown no matter where he went. I do have to give credit to Calhoun for recognizing the talent, but I don't know if I can say that Emeka wouldn't be in the NBA without him.
 
You're misrepresenting what i said and/or not understanding what i wrote.

• Didn't say he's not respected. I'm suggesting that the level of actual respect for his coaching ability isn't the same as the amount of lipservice respect he gets by broadcasters. He's been around a long time. He's made friends and connections. Guys like Bilas and Raftery like him.

• He doesn't give a damn about opinions? I would assert that he absolutely does. He's human. Anyone who doesn't care, even in the slightest, is so far into arrogance that they'd be insufferable. Oh, wait — maybe that's what's happening. No, actually, i completely believe he's a good fellow. I've said often that i like him, personally. For the most part. I detest his ornery attitude and inability to 'suffer fools,' but to him, everyone is a fool...

• He got into the HOF because that's what happens when you win that many games. It's a building. It's an honor. They have to have pretty simple passages to get into it — milestones and the like that are simple enough that people understand why they're in there. Has nothing to do with a panel's qualitative assessment of his abilities. Chosen by Coach K? They're friends, no? JB is supposed to bring a certain skillset to the table. And, he gets along with K. We're not talking about JB being named as the Head Coach. Heck, Hopkins is there, too. Are you saying K respects Hop more than Calhoun or Pitino or Brey or Izzo or...

• "never much cared for JB" is a reduction of the truth. I don't dislike him. My 'not caring for him' can best be expressed by a dismissal of the hype that goes along with him. I simply have never seen a reason to feel he's as good as the publicity. And, to echo Gottlieb (just threw up in my mouth a little), "great? No." We've played a few teams this year who i feel have better coaches. And, that's just our schedule, this year. So, while his milestone and accomplishments may put him into the "great" league, i don't believe his coaching is in that same league. Many people wrap all that up into the same ball of discussion. I separate things. A person can preside at the head of a great program with great accomplishments, but still not be great at what he, in particular, does. Whether people like or can acknowledge that kind of nuance is another matter.

• Back in the day, the talk about JB was decidedly different than it is now. When certain jobs became open, other coaches were mentioned. Not JB. When people talked about who were the best in-game strategists, JB was not mentioned. When people talked about preparation and player development, JB wasn't mentioned. And, none of those things have changed. What has changed is the win total and the publicity. JB himself commonly says he's the same coach he was back then. It's the perceptions of some that have changed. And, people evaluate based on different criteria. To not accept that is silly. I don't disagree with opinions that JB is a great coach. I tend to disagree with the reasons why. More nuance. Sorry.

• This, again, is just my opinion, as i've not seen an actual poll... But, i'd wager that if you asked the top 10 'basketball minds' who they'd choose as a coach, from any school, from any era — to coach one game, or one season — JB wouldn't be in the top 10 or 20 of coaches named. This is way speculative and perhaps out of bounds, but it's the kind of conceptual thinking that i find more interesting that a simple measurement of 900+ wins. And, that's the kind of respect i was referring to. Not the simple 'do you respect JB or not' kind of thing. Of course the answer is 'yes' in the latter situation.
Hard to make many of the criticisms that you have when you don't take into account how he built a regional basketball program into a legitimate national power. "Back in the day" was 1976, not 1985. Your point of reference is not fair to JB. This is all part of the story as well...just sayin'
 
But really...not really. JB wants/picks guys that he knows/thinks he can actually get, AND, that will fit his system. If JB could routinely land that high blue chip/NBA sure thing types, uh, well, he's not stupid...he would...if he could. SU, traditionally, has never been that type of school that lands that type (in numbers) so he does the next best thing, gets players that fit his program that he believes gives him the greatest chance for success...

Agreed.

But when it comes to guys outside the top 50, I think Calhoun looked for qualities that translated better to the NBA and doing well in the post season.
 
Besides Johnny Flynn and Pearl Washington who has busted under Boeheim that was a top recruit? Wes and Hak were 2 star recruits and Andy Rautins has to be the only one star recruit to ever make the NBA. Please correct me if I am wrong about Rautins.
 
Besides Johnny Flynn and Pearl Washington who has busted under Boeheim that was a top recruit? Wes and Hak were 2 star recruits and Andy Rautins has to be the only one star recruit to ever make the NBA. Please correct me if I am wrong about Rautins.
Donte Greene (I assume you're talking aobut busting in the NBA)
 
Any specific years in your mind where you feel the team underachieved on what could have been a final four year? To me 2005 jumps out, I honestly felt that if we could have gotten by that Vermont game somehow we were going on a long run, still haunts me.
I go way back for 3 years...85-86 , 89-90, and 90-91. There should have been 1 more FF in there some where.
 

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