ACC, PAC-12, and BIG alliance / conference realignment

[oldpinepoint]

More money doesn’t make up for poorly run athletic departments

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Whoever posted above that the GOR is a speed bump is correct.

FSU will figure it out - one way or another. As will Clemson, Miami and NC. There's too much at stake. Only thing I'm not sure about is whether FSU will go to the SEC or B12 - dunno if UF wants FSU in the SEC.

Hopefully, Wildhack earns his $$ and cements our place (somehow) in the B10. Because it's just a matter of time.

And we ain't getting in the SEC - nor would we want to.

I love CFB and I love SU football. More than hoops. As an alum - this whole thing sucks.

Why would the SEC want FSU at all? Or right now? Without an SEC invite, FSU has no reason to leave. At best that happens right before the next SEC TV contract and not now. Although they do seem to be run by a bunch of idiots who might think going Indy is better.

I could see the B18 taking Miami one day. But again the earliest is right before the next B18 TV contract. More likely that happens right before the contract after next. There is no rush to take Miami before the end of the GOR.

Clemson has no reason to leave as long as the are competing for national titles. If their program starts to fade I could see them wanting out. But again why would the SEC want Clemson? Even if the SEC did want them, it isn't likely until the contract after next.

UNC will stay in the ACC as long as their BBall program is doing well. If they start to struggle, you could see them go elsewhere. But again no reason to leave anytime before the B18/SEC contract after next.

So we are likely looking at 10 years.

If the SEC/ESPN wants ND and a national conference, we would be involved in that. I think the chances of that are slim but it isn't totally out of the picture. It would be taking the best assets from the ACC and the ACCN into the SEC.

I think we are still in play for the B18. If they do one day go to 24 teams and have 6 divisions of 4, a good case could be made for SU as the last team in.

In the mean time it would be good for the next B12 TV contract to stink so the ACC can raid the B12. Worst case we have a landing spot where most of our conference is still in the East.

 

[orangecuse]

Whoever posted above that the GOR is a speed bump is correct.

FSU will figure it out - one way or another. As will Clemson, Miami and NC. There's too much at stake. Only thing I'm not sure about is whether FSU will go to the SEC or B12 - dunno if UF wants FSU in the SEC.

Hopefully, Wildhack earns his $$ and cements our place (somehow) in the B10. Because it's just a matter of time.

And we ain't getting in the SEC - nor would we want to.

I love CFB and I love SU football. More than hoops. As an alum - this whole thing sucks.

'Free will' will ultimately persevere and prevail. And, "where there's a will there's a way."

 

[All4SU]

The ACC sucks and I am not defending them at all but it wouldn’t have mattered with the PAC 12 teams IMO, I am 99% sure the 4 teams who went Big 12 much preferred that conference over the ACC and UW and Oregon going Big 10 was a no-brainer. I agree that the ACC probably has 5-7 years left. Closer to 2036 they get, it gets more affordable to bail. The best thing about the Big 12 is that there are no big shots in the conference who think they should be making more than the other members. At least that will be the case starting in 2024

I would bet that both WVU and Cincy coveted a spot in the ACC far more than in the B12. Can’t speak for UCF, but I’ll say they would have too. As would UCon, Temple, East Carolina, Buffalo, Appalachian St, USF, FAU, and on and on. I’m not suggesting that those schools should be asked. But all of them would kill to get an ACC invite.

 

[kcsu]

Backing up one step to the mechanics of dissolution, there is a Va Tech site which contains the 2020-21 "ACC Manual", which in turn contains the ACC By Laws. I have no reason to doubt its authenticity.
The By Laws have no supermajority requirement for a Board vote on dissolution, so one could argue a simple majority would suffice under NC law. There is, however, a hard 2/3 supermajority required to "amend "any major media rights deal, and I think a strong argument could be made that an FSU led dissolution vote is just that. Another would be that the dissolution vote itself is improper because its primary purpose is to breach a lawful contract.
You don't have to agree with my analysis but any conference looking to bring in FSU or another defector has to recognize there is serious litigation risk. First as to the legality of dissolution and then as to whether the GOR survives dissolution. And as far as FSU persuading 6 or 9 others the question is for what when the latest BiG and Big12 payouts are less than the ACC's.

I dont believe venue is NC i think it is Deleware

I respect your posts. And I'm also a corporate lawyer - for nearly 30 years. As I'm certain you will agree, there is no such thing as a contract that can't be broken - may cost an arm and a leg - but it can, and will be broken.

Look at the PGA merging with LIV. A year ago this would be unimaginable.

I have been running corporations for 40 years and I don't agree with you. I have had many contracts upheld. Some in our favor some not. Your statement needs to be modified to state that contracts can be bought out, which is what FSU will need to do if they plan on leaving.

 

[longtimefan]

BC was 49-21 between 99-04, and went 45-22 first five years in ACC

So those ten years they were 94-43. That's why they were grabbed.

I would kill for a ten year stretch like that again.

They are 65-83 last twelve years. They haven't sustained their early ACC success.

Counting conference games only, they were 26-14 the first five years in the ACC (0-2 in championship games).

Good, but not overwhelming. They have not been over .500 in any season since (2010--present).

And remember how BC's last Big East game went--Diamond Ferri going crazy, sombreros tossed to the wind.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I respect your posts. And I'm also a corporate lawyer - for nearly 30 years. As I'm certain you will agree, there is no such thing as a contract that can't be broken - may cost an arm and a leg - but it can, and will be broken.

Look at the PGA merging with LIV. A year ago this would be unimaginable.

Likewise, and also respectfully, I actually agree- they can break it alright. Question is will it be worth it? 13 years out from the end of the ACC's GOR, I don't think there's a chance in hell of anything happening for at least another 10 years.
They can challenge all they want, but it's likely they'll lose, at which point they can negotiate a payoff amount. That's not what the term "speed bump" would seem to suggest- it certainly won't be a cakewalk.
Experience has shown that after weighing the pros and cons, most schools have deferred. I see FSU doing the same thing. JMHO

 

[Ozcuse]

This will be the next shoe to drop, IMO. At some point it's gonna devolve to teams within conferences wanting more because they bring more "value". The FSU thing is a preview of what's to come, in every conference, down the road.

There will be the happy to be in the B1G teams and then OSU asking why they are getting the same amount as Iowa and Minnesota. Would not be surprised to see OSU ask for $100m a year by the other conference schools giving up 3m each. Or USC and UCLA saying they should get more because their state sub model brings more than the other states do.

Honestly I would be happy to see every team go to individual tv deal models instead of now where schools that happened to join the right conference 90 years ago get $50+M a year to be a doormat.

 

[djorange1989]

I would bet that both WVU and Cincy coveted a spot in the ACC far more than in the B12. Can’t speak for UCF, but I’ll say they would have too. As would UCon, Temple, East Carolina, Buffalo, Appalachian St, USF, FAU, and on and on. I’m not suggesting that those schools should be asked. But all of them would kill to get an ACC invite.

I’m talking about the PAC 12 teams only.

 

[kcsu]

FSU isn't going to JP Morgan to fund a lawsuit. They may be looking to borrow 30 year money in order to pay off the ACC which unless the school guarantees the loan and the BOT and most likely the State approve the deal seems like a huge stretch .

 

[Toga]

There will be the happy to be in the B1G teams and then OSU asking why they are getting the same amount as Iowa and Minnesota. Would not be surprised to see OSU ask for $100m a year by the other conference schools giving up 3m each. Or USC and UCLA saying they should get more because their state sub model brings more than the other states do.

Honestly I would be happy to see every team go to individual tv deal models instead of now where schools that happened to join the right conference 90 years ago get $50+M a year to be a doormat.

Ultimately you could have each individual team negotiate their own deal(s) with whoever is paying at the time. Conferences (or a facsimile thereof) would be more for revenue sports scheduling purposes and perhaps a conference championship game. Non-revenue sports could align geographically.

 

[dasher]

I think the next thing we see will be leagues asking schools to leave.

 

[CuseCactus]

I dont believe venue is NC i think it is Deleware

I have been running corporations for 40 years and I don't agree with you. I have had many contracts upheld. Some in our favor some not. Your statement needs to be modified to state that contracts can be bought out, which is what FSU will need to do if they plan on leaving.

You are correct - if you wish to be technical about it - thanks! I didn’t at all suggest the contract wouldn’t be upheld. By “broken” as you’ll note in my post - I inferred there would be a big fee to escape the agreement. Which of course may and likely will happen - if enough $$ is thrown at it.

 

[007]

This will be the next shoe to drop, IMO. At some point it's gonna devolve to teams within conferences wanting more because they bring more "value". The FSU thing is a preview of what's to come, in every conference, down the road.

I'm in this camp too. Where does the greed end? How much is enough? I can easily see Georgia, Alabama, OSU, and Michigan wanting a bigger cut. And/or leagues pushing out the bottom value teams to increase the per team payouts.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I think the next thing we see will be leagues asking schools to leave.

Nah. The world needs ditch diggers too. Sure TV might want to B18 to be the B9, but that wouldn't be what the schools or fans want.

I think we see 3 conferences of 24 with each having 6 divisions of 4. That allows for at least 6 programs to flourish at a time. That was part of the issue with prior expansion, only having 2 divisions allowed only 2 teams to make the CCG.

Then those 72 schools break away into a new FB sub division.

Think about the money for the conference playoffs. That IMO will be where the next round of money will come from, not regular season games. You can have the 6 division champs in the QFs. Then 4 Wild Cards play for those last 2 QF spots. That gives you a 9 game conference playoff (lots of money).

The 3 conference champs make the Final Four. Two Wild Cards play for the 4th spot.

For example...

B1G division champs: USC, Nebraska, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Miami with Wild Cards Oregon, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Penn State.

 

[tep624]

I dont believe venue is NC i think it is Deleware

I have been running corporations for 40 years and I don't agree with you. I have had many contracts upheld. Some in our favor some not. Your statement needs to be modified to state that contracts can be bought out, which is what FSU will need to do if they plan on leaving.

If it is Delaware then the whole NC discussion is a moot point. I know DE is the hub of LLC organization so it may very well be DE.

However, their tax documents list state of legal domicile as NC. So I assume that’s where they are organized.

Atlantic Coast Conference - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

 

[tep624]

I think the next thing we see will be leagues asking schools to leave.

Northwestern and Vanderbilt, etc?

 

[oldpinepoint]

Northwestern and Vanderbilt, etc?

Rutgers, wake forest

 

[NYCCuse826]

FSU isn't going to JP Morgan to fund a lawsuit. They may be looking to borrow 30 year money in order to pay off the ACC which unless the school guarantees the loan and the BOT and most likely the State approve the deal seems like a huge stretch .

What is the interest rate going to be on that? With APRs going up, the state would be foolish to approve that.

 

[dasher]

Nah. The world needs ditch diggers too. Sure TV might want to B18 to be the B9, but that wouldn't be what the schools or fans want.

I think we see 3 conferences of 24 with each having 6 divisions of 4. That allows for at least 6 programs to flourish at a time. That was part of the issue with prior expansion, only having 2 divisions allowed only 2 teams to make the CCG.

Then those 72 schools break away into a new FB sub division.

Think about the money for the conference playoffs. That IMO will be where the next round of money will come from, not regular season games. You can have the 6 division champs in the QFs. Then 4 Wild Cards play for those last 2 QF spots. That gives you a 9 game conference playoff (lots of money).

The 3 conference champs make the Final Four. Two Wild Cards play for the 4th spot.

For example...

B1G division champs: USC, Nebraska, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Miami with Wild Cards Oregon, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Penn State.

They can get their patsies in other ways. Not by sharing their money with them.

 

[Newhouser]

I think the next thing we see will be leagues asking schools to leave.

I agree and I think that is when Su needs to start moving. The have nots of the Big and SEC are our future conference members. Assuming we keep at big time football.

 

[Orangefan1]

I think it’s interesting we actually have a more rich history in football than many in the ACC. We’ve had some of the greater running backs and wide receivers in college football history. People shouldn’t be surprised by being 6th in viewing.

I think the next thing we see will be leagues asking schools to leave.

wow if your hearing that is interesting where would this start?

 

[Shenexon]

If the enemy of my enemy is my friend
and
The SEC & BIG seek to destroy all other conferences
then
then shouldn’t there be some interest in an alliance between the Big 12 and the ACC?

How many sub-conferences would make sense from the teams currently in the ACC and Big 12? The SEC & BIG will not stop their power grab unless effectively countered by the remaining programs in the P5. There are few remaining attractive nonaligned programs, if any. A merger could help us all. A conference basketball final four of Arizona, Kansas, Duke, and Syracuse could be fun.

 

[Willy75]

If it is Delaware then the whole NC discussion is a moot point. I know DE is the hub of LLC organization so it may very well be DE.

However, their tax documents list state of legal domicile as NC. So I assume that’s where they are organized.

Atlantic Coast Conference - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.

projects.propublica.org

As we all know venue is different from choice of law is different from jurisdiction (sic). I don’t know how Delaware comes into the discussion. Btw I re-read the GOR agreement and the recitals describe the ACC as an unincorporated association

 

[tep624]

As we all know venue is different from choice of law is different from jurisdiction (sic). I don’t know how Delaware comes into the discussion. Btw I re-read the GOR agreement and the recitals describe the ACC as an unincorporated association

They’re a 501c for tax purposes which is a not for profit filing designation.