ACC teams getting better against the zone, trouble for 'Cuse

[MaristMike]

The whole zone trope is getting a little annoying to me.

A) our offense has been better than our defense this year. This is not a freak occurrence; this is the 12th year Pomeroy is tracking this stuff, our offense has ranked higher than the D 8 times in 12 years.
B) We don't have this record of outperforming our seed in tournaments, despite the idea that teams "aren't ready for our zone"

To the extent that our defense is good, to me, it has a hell of a lot more to do with the fact that we have really good players then the type of defense we play. Kansas plays man to man; lots of teams in the Big 12 play man to man, KU has won the conference a million years in a row because they have the best players and the best coach.

I agree. In the same vein tired of Bo getting the genius label. I'd say good recruiting label, but D genius? Nope, rangy quick athletes makes for good D.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

By the way, how many great one on one defenders in the NBA went to Syracuse...um, none? Wonder why?

Because nobody in the NBA plays defense?

 

[jncuse]

You got sniffed out as a troll on your first post.

Your about as good at trolling as Tyler Olander is at NCAA basketball.

 

[Knicks411]

Because nobody in the NBA plays defense?

Nah, might want to try again. Though dont watch any Knicks games.

 

[MaristMike]

It's not like these guys didn't know how to play against a zone defense until they got to college. The issue that teams have against us is with our unique brand of the zone which no other team executes as well, along with the amazing athletes that we're now signing consistently to play in it.

You could even look at the flip side and say that ACC players who've gone against other zones will feel a false sense of security about their ability to go against ours, we see this mentality in opposing fans all the time.​

I think you're nuts. There's not a single team that walks into a Syracuse game with a false sense of security in their ability to play well against the 'Cuse zone. Teams fear it. What are you talking about?

 

[Crusty]

Time to put MaristMike on ignore.

 

[MaristMike]

The Big East saw our zone for 33 years in a row and we did OK.

Teams undersandably prepared more for the man they say 90% of the year vs the 2 games (plus BE tourney) they saw zone.

Live in the future, babe. The past is, well, you know.

 

[pearl31]

I think you're nuts. There's not a single team that walks into a Syracuse game with a false sense of security in their ability to play well against the 'Cuse zone. Teams fear it. What are you talking about?

you sore cuz you got a bad taste of houston and smu in your moufs?

 

[PeteCalvin]

Troll stomp on flowers! Troll angry at world! Must insult others to feel better!!!

 

[moqui]

You actually run it 94% of the time, not 100% of the time. And other teams have great athletes. Stop breaking your arm patting yourself on the back. Bo was ahead of his time but time is catching up with him. You'll see.

you can believe what you choose to believe, but I promise you that whatever website you went to that reported 94% has a data collection error

 

[Knicks411]

you can believe what you choose to believe, but I promise you that whatever website you went to that reported 94% has a data collection error

First thought it was Pomeroy, but I don't think so.

 

[MaristMike]

Time to put MaristMike on ignore.

Just challenging some long held beliefs, using stats while I'm at it. If all you want to do is yap about Cuse's greatness, have at it. An open and at times heated discourse is healthy. Enjoy your Barney group if you like ("I love you, you love me, we're one happy family...")

 

[MaristMike]

you can believe what you choose to believe, but I promise you that whatever website you went to that reported 94% has a data collection error

So you haven't once (or 6% of the time this year) shifted to a man? That's simply not true, I promise you (since we're in the "trust me, I promise" mode)

 

[Orangezoo]

Just challenging some long held beliefs, using stats while I'm at it. If all you want to do is yap about Cuse's greatness, have at it. An open and at times heated discourse is healthy. Enjoy your Barney group if you like ("I love you, you love me, we're one happy family...")

Clearly reading comprehension is not one of your strengths. Then again it isn't for most intellectually inept trolls.

 

[moqui]

in all seriousness, Mike - the thing that makes the Syracuse zone different is the full commitment to it. Boeheim has acknowledged as much himself. The decision to practice only the zone, and the years spent studying its failures, are the difference between what Syracuse does and what everyone else cannot do. Boeheim has a database in his head of the various weak spots in the zone, and the adjustments necessary to patch them up. The best thing about the Syracuse zone is the in-game adjustments that Boeheim makes to it. Nobody is going to be able to replicate that, probably not even his chosen successor when his turn comes.

 

[br801]

Just challenging some long held beliefs, using stats while I'm at it. If all you want to do is yap about Cuse's greatness, have at it. An open and at times heated discourse is healthy. Enjoy your Barney group if you like ("I love you, you love me, we're one happy family...")

Yeah, it's one big happy family on this board...

 

[Knicks411]

in all seriousness, Mike - the thing that makes the Syracuse zone different is the full commitment to it. Boeheim has acknowledged as much himself. The decision to practice only the zone, and the years spent studying its failures, are the difference between what Syracuse does and what everyone else cannot do. Boeheim has a database in his head of the various weak spots in the zone, and the adjustments necessary to patch them up. The best thing about the Syracuse zone is the in-game adjustments that Boeheim makes to it. Nobody is going to be able to replicate that, probably not even his chosen successor when his turn comes.

This is true, but I feel like at some point we also need to acknowledge that in the last 12 years, we've had one top 10 defense. I get the impression from the way it is discussed that we should be in the top 5 every year or something

 

[moqui]

So you haven't once (or 6% of the time this year) shifted to a man? That's simply not true, I promise you (since we're in the "trust me, I promise" mode)

not once that I can recall.

anyone else? Bueller?

I could be wrong, but it is a tiny number, nowhere near 6% of possessions. I'm not saying this to be confrontational. Just giving you the insights of a tuned in fan who watches every game. take it or leave it.

 

[jncuse]

First thought it was Pomeroy, but I don't think so.

I don't doubt its 94%. Any possession that starts in transition / semi-transition can force our defence to break down initially where we are not able to set up in the 2/3 right away.

The same can happen in the very few times we have pressed, and it is broken. That is not playing man. I can't even remember pressing this year, but I am sure they have done it a few times.

 

[Orangezoo]

in all seriousness, Mike - the thing that makes the Syracuse zone different is the full commitment to it. Boeheim has acknowledged as much himself. The decision to practice only the zone, and the years spent studying its failures, are the difference between what Syracuse does and what everyone else cannot do. Boeheim has a database in his head of the various weak spots in the zone, and the adjustments necessary to patch them up. The best thing about the Syracuse zone is the in-game adjustments that Boeheim makes to it. Nobody is going to be able to replicate that, probably not even his chosen successor when his turn comes.

exactly. That and the fact it leverages mtm help defense principles as well as trapping and ball pressure tactics found in many different types of zones. Its much closer to an amoeba zone than any sort of traditional zone. In many senses its the defensive equivalent to a motion offense and highly unique in that it can change every game to match the opponents offensive tactics.

 

[creatorsgam]

Used the pronoun "we" in your OP, then it is all "you." Nice try. You're in or you're out. You are out.

 

[Orangezoo]

This is true, but I feel like at some point we also need to acknowledge that in the last 12 years, we've had one top 10 defense. I get the impression from the way it is discussed that we should be in the top 5 every year or something

ehh.. gotta remember its bumped against all 300 plus D-1 teams including those who don't face a single opponent as difficult as 8 0r 9 SU does.

 

[Knicks411]

ehh.. gotta remember its bumped against all 300 plus D-1 teams including those who don't face a single opponent as difficult as 8 0r 9 SU does.

A) the numbers are adjusted based on opponent
B) none of the teams ahead of us are teams like that anyway

 

[moqui]

The whole zone trope is getting a little annoying to me.

A) our offense has been better than our defense this year. This is not a freak occurrence; this is the 12th year Pomeroy is tracking this stuff, our offense has ranked higher than the D 8 times in 12 years.

that is by design - commitment to the zone was a stroke of genius on JB's part because it played on the general lack of skill in the college game, allowing teams to beat themselves by taking bad shots, and by allowing SU to get a lot of steals, blocks and transition points without having to exert a lot of energy on defense, which as you point out pays big dividends on the offensive side of the ball.

This all didn't really begin to bear fruit until 2010, it was just a crazy experiment until then with, as you point out, very mixed results. But since the players fully committed in 2010, it really has been remarkable.

 

[StopCoolio]

not once that I can recall.

anyone else? Bueller?

I could be wrong, but it is a tiny number, nowhere near 6% of possessions. I'm not saying this to be confrontational. Just giving you the insights of a tuned in fan who watches every game. take it or leave it.

We occasionally switch to man on last second shot opportunities, like Pitt earlier this year for literally 3-5 seconds to throw them off.

I assume that the 6%, if that number is accurate, refers to full court pressing, which we do every now and again, more so in non-conference. Even that seems high though.

Other than that, all zone, all the time, from what I can remember.