ACC teams getting better against the zone, trouble for 'Cuse

[MaristMike]

Clearly reading comprehension is not one of your strengths. Then again it isn't for most intellectually inept trolls.

Yes, I am a very dumb, uneducated person. A dolt if you will. I'm so glad you spotted that and called me out. Fine, fine post. Well done. Bravo zulu. You are a credit to syracusefan.com. I commend you.

 

[TDTOrange]

not once that I can recall.

anyone else? Bueller?

I could be wrong, but it is a tiny number, nowhere near 6% of possessions. I'm not saying this to be confrontational. Just giving you the insights of a tuned in fan who watches every game. take it or leave it.

We have not played one possession of a man-to-man defense all year. If those are the 2 choices then it has to be some sort of collection error. If they chart versions of our press (which starts out as M2M, then traps, then falls back into a 2-3 if they get it over halfcourt and don't immediately get swatted at the rim) then that could account for some % of the difference. Then it's however they chart fast-break defense, as we might not get setup into our 2-3 before a score, but it would get there if there was no attack.

 

[Orangezoo]

A) the numbers are adjusted based on opponent
B) none of the teams ahead of us are teams like that anyway

maybe but you have to look at consistency as well from year to year. In addition how many of those teams are efficient offensively as well. It is one thing to predicate your entire team on defense or offense. Another to have a consistently good to great defense every year while also being efficient offensively to be an annual contender.

 

[MaristMike]

in all seriousness, Mike - the thing that makes the Syracuse zone different is the full commitment to it. Boeheim has acknowledged as much himself. The decision to practice only the zone, and the years spent studying its failures, are the difference between what Syracuse does and what everyone else cannot do. Boeheim has a database in his head of the various weak spots in the zone, and the adjustments necessary to patch them up. The best thing about the Syracuse zone is the in-game adjustments that Boeheim makes to it. Nobody is going to be able to replicate that, probably not even his chosen successor when his turn comes.

Honestly don't you think that someone, at some point, will go down that same path? I agree that the full commitment is key, but he's been so successful for so long won't other teams eventually go down the 100% road? Part of the problem is the win now mentality and relatively quick turnover in college coaching ranks. Someone has to give a coach a long leash to do this fully.

 

[Orangezoo]

Yes, I am a very dumb, uneducated person. A dolt if you will. I'm so glad you spotted that and called me out. Fine, fine post. Well done. Bravo zulu. You are a credit to syracusefan.com. I commend you.

Considering the fact you decided to assume this board annoints the orange as omnipotent and without flaw vs actually reading some posts to postulate a real opinion you are absolutely intellectually challenged in the art of generating a persuasive argument.

Add to that your assumption that "heated discourse" is a positive thing. It is much more like saying " trolling" is good for a board when in fact this is a board with enough subjective diversity it needs not some angry schlub like yourself buzzing about.

 

[moqui]

Honestly don't you think that someone, at some point, will go down that same path? I agree that the full commitment is key, but he's been so successful for so long won't other teams eventually go down the 100% road? Part of the problem is the win now mentality and relatively quick turnover in college coaching ranks. Someone has to give a coach a long leash to do this fully.

the long leash is the thing, and it is a very rare commodity. The thing Boeheim had going for him is job security. Anyone going down that path who goes 4 years without an NCAA tournament win and 3 consecutive NIT level squads (As JB did) might find himself out of a job before he can get the car out of the garage.

 

[Orangezoo]

Honestly don't you think that someone, at some point, will go down that same path? I agree that the full commitment is key, but he's been so successful for so long won't other teams eventually go down the 100% road? Part of the problem is the win now mentality and relatively quick turnover in college coaching ranks. Someone has to give a coach a long leash to do this fully.

Going down the same path is not congruent with rate of success. You can't simply copy the formula. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[jncuse]

Honestly don't you think that someone, at some point, will go down that same path? I agree that the full commitment is key, but he's been so successful for so long won't other teams eventually go down the 100% road? Part of the problem is the win now mentality and relatively quick turnover in college coaching ranks. Someone has to give a coach a long leash to do this fully.

Maybe coach Ollie can think of a unique system that can help your team as well Certainly pounding the doors of 2 star recruits will not get your team far.

 

[Knicks411]

that is by design - commitment to the zone was a stroke of genius on JB's part because it played on the general lack of skill in the college game, allowing teams to beat themselves by taking bad shots, and by allowing SU to get a lot of steals, blocks and transition points without having to exert a lot of energy on defense, which as you point out pays big dividends on the offensive side of the ball.

This all didn't really begin to bear fruit until 2010, it was just a crazy experiment until then with, as you point out, very mixed results. But since the players fully committed in 2010, it really has been remarkable.

That's true, last 5 years, they have ranked 20th, 18th, 17th, 8th, and 19th. So basically consistently a top 20 defense. Which is really good, don't get me wrong. But it just seems to me, the way it's talked about, here and other places, you'd think they are top 5 every year. Not the case. I don't think nearly enough time is spent on the offense, which is working on it's 4th top 10 finish int he last 6 years

 

[creatorsgam]

Yes, I am a very dumb, uneducated person. A dolt if you will.

Put that in your sig. Sort of like a disclaimer for those that read your posts.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

not once that I can recall.

anyone else? Bueller?

I could be wrong, but it is a tiny number, nowhere near 6% of possessions. I'm not saying this to be confrontational. Just giving you the insights of a tuned in fan who watches every game. take it or leave it.

Not once that I remember.

 

[moqui]

That's true, last 5 years, they have ranked 20th, 18th, 17th, 8th, and 19th. So basically consistently a top 20 defense. Which is really good, don't get me wrong. But it just seems to me, the way it's talked about, here and other places, you'd think they are top 5 every year. Not the case. I don't think nearly enough time is spent on the offense, which is working on it's 4th top 10 finish int he last 6 years

back in 96 when he went full zone for the NCAA tournament run, a comment from Rick Majerus in the CBS studio still sticks with me (I'll have to paraphrase here): Jimmy has found a way to rest his guys on defense so they can go all out on offense, without giving up much on the defensive end.

so, even in the beginning, it was all about the offense.

 

[RF2044]

You actually run it 94% of the time, not 100% of the time. And other teams have great athletes. Stop breaking your arm patting yourself on the back. Bo was ahead of his time but time is catching up with him. You'll see.

I'm glad you clarified that you are an outsider with the "you" above.

So what was up with the "we" in the last sentence of your OP?

 

[jncuse]

Honestly don't you think that someone, at some point, will go down that same path? I agree that the full commitment is key, but he's been so successful for so long won't other teams eventually go down the 100% road? Part of the problem is the win now mentality and relatively quick turnover in college coaching ranks. Someone has to give a coach a long leash to do this fully.

This team has 2 things going for it
1) Unique system that is recruited for
2) Consistently getting top 10 / top 15 recruiting classes.

A team can copy #1, but I am not sure how they are going to go about #2.

Only a certain number of teams can get in the top 10 in recruiting and play the 2-3 (hint - its less than 11)

 

[rstone7727]

I'm thinking he's afraid to reveal his colors...

 

[RF2044]

I agree. In the same vein tired of Bo getting the genius label. I'd say good recruiting label, but D genius? Nope, rangy quick athletes makes for good D.

One thing's for sure: with perspectives like these, you sure won't get the genius label.

 

[jncuse]

back in 96 when he went full zone for the NCAA tournament run, a comment from Rick Majerus in the CBS studio still sticks with me (I'll have to paraphrase here): Jimmy has found a way to rest his guys on defense so they can go all out on offense, without giving up much on the defensive end.

so, even in the beginning, it was all about the offense.

I agree. That's how I perceive the old defence. We played it as a way to focus on offence.

Now we use it as a weapon.

 

[mike32768]

Because nobody in the NBA plays defense?

You have to play zone as a team or it no workie. Hardly anything done on the floor in the NBA is done as a team.

 

[Knicks411]

back in 96 when he went full zone for the NCAA tournament run, a comment from Rick Majerus in the CBS studio still sticks with me (I'll have to paraphrase here): Jimmy has found a way to rest his guys on defense so they can go all out on offense, without giving up much on the defensive end.

so, even in the beginning, it was all about the offense.

That and the lack of foul trouble are 2 things that I don't think get mentioned enough. So, very good point.

 

[moqui]

That and the lack of foul trouble are 2 things that I don't think get mentioned enough. So, very good point.

thank you, but it was really your point to begin with

 

[RF2044]

That's true, last 5 years, they have ranked 20th, 18th, 17th, 8th, and 19th. So basically consistently a top 20 defense. Which is really good, don't get me wrong. But it just seems to me, the way it's talked about, here and other places, you'd think they are top 5 every year. Not the case. I don't think nearly enough time is spent on the offense, which is working on it's 4th top 10 finish int he last 6 years

Yeah, but the goal isn't to attain a ranking on a statistical list. It's to throw a system at teams that they aren't familiar with, with personnel perfectly suited to play this defense.

Its talked about with reverential awe in the sports media because teams--even elite teams--think that they're ready to execute against it, only to be flummoxed when they face it in live action. Remember Indiana's overconfidence about how they were going to run us off of the floor last year, only to instead look completely inept against zone?

That doesn't prevent talking heads from talking about all of the key things that teams can to beat the zone, but it is easier said than done--and not all teams have the right personnel to make it happen.

 

[Orangezoo]

Yeah, but the goal isn't to attain a ranking on a statistical list. It's to throw a system at teams that they aren't familiar with, with personnel perfectly suited to play this defense.

Its talked about with reverential awe because teams--even elite teams--think that they're ready to execute against it, only to be flummoxed when they face it in live action. Remember Indiana's overconfidence about how they were going to run us off of the floor last year, only to instead look completely inept against zone?

Just call it the fool's gold zone.

 

[CuseTroop]

How in the heck are we supposed to behave.. when things like this keep happening

 

[dasher]

There is, but give the other teams 5 years. 'Cuse's D will be commonplace and they'll be one of many running it.

By the way, how many great one on one defenders in the NBA went to Syracuse...um, none? Wonder why?

see, you came here as a fraud. Used the word we're as if you are a syracuse fan. Because you are so dumb, it didn't take long for you to unmask yourself. Oh, and we played in a much better league for over 30 years and they couldn't solve the zone. The nitwit coaches in this league (save K) sure won't.

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah, but the goal isn't to attain a ranking on a statistical list. It's to throw a system at teams that they aren't familiar with, with personnel perfectly suited to play this defense.

Sure, but how does that not show up in the defensive numbers? If teams aren't ready for it, then they won't score a lot of points against it. And they don't; we generally rank very well defensively, just not at the super elite level that it seems like we should, considering all the ink we get.

And for sure, last year was a very good example; our defense was off the charts good in the tournament run. But in 2012 you have Wisconsin putting up 63 points in 52 possessions (I know, they made a lot of 3's, so I guess it doesn't count), Ohio State scoring 77 in 69 (right, all the fouls, just saying). I just realized; we've played a ton of big ten teams in the tournament the last few years.

My point is not to knock our defense; we've consistently ranked as a top 20 defense over the last 5 years. I don't know, it just seems to me that the zone has become this mythical thing the last few years (and hey if it works to psyche the other team out before they step on the court, I'm all for it) and gets a disproportionate share of the credit for the success of the team. (Though to be clear; not last year. The defense in the final four run was, like I said already, off the charts good. But even with that; that's not just "the zone"; that's the players executing as well)

There was a post I saw a few days ago that basically said our 2 strengths if we made the East regionals would be the zone and playing in front of a partisan crowd. Like, nothing about one of the best offenses in the country?