ACC teams getting better against the zone, trouble for 'Cuse | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

ACC teams getting better against the zone, trouble for 'Cuse

So you haven't once (or 6% of the time this year) shifted to a man? That's simply not true, I promise you (since we're in the "trust me, I promise" mode)
Not one possession in a half court offense in at least a couple years. Your data is not accurate. 6% would equate to 2-3 minutes per game. That just ain't happening.

As for other teams catching up and playing zone. If it were that easy other teams would do it. The only way to switch is to be all in and practice it every day. Coaches won't do that because of period of sucking on defense the team would have to go through. On the offensive end, teams do get better at it but you need the right personnel of having a big man that can hit the foul line jumper and multiple three point threats. Not as easy as it sounds.
 
Sure, but how does that not show up in the defensive numbers? If teams aren't ready for it, then they won't score a lot of points against it. And they don't; we generally rank very well defensively, just not at the super elite level that it seems like we should, considering all the ink we get.

And for sure, last year was a very good example; our defense was off the charts good in the tournament run. But in 2012 you have Wisconsin putting up 63 points in 52 possessions (I know, they made a lot of 3's, so I guess it doesn't count), Ohio State scoring 77 in 69 (right, all the fouls, just saying). I just realized; we've played a ton of big ten teams in the tournament the last few years.

My point is not to knock our defense; we've consistently ranked as a top 20 defense over the last 5 years. I don't know, it just seems to me that the zone has become this mythical thing the last few years (and hey if it works to psyche the other team out before they step on the court, I'm all for it) and gets a disproportionate share of the credit for the success of the team. (Though to be clear; not last year. The defense in the final four run was, like I said already, off the charts good. But even with that; that's not just "the zone"; that's the players executing as well)

There was a post I saw a few days ago that basically said our 2 strengths if we made the East regionals would be the zone and playing in front of a partisan crowd. Like, nothing about one of the best offenses in the country?


Oh Lord This reminds me a lot of a conversation / debate we had a few years ago, where I lamented the Celtics trading away their enforcer, Kendrick Perkins--when they had Miami down in double digits of several playoff games, but couldn't stop Wade / Lebron from going to the hole in the fourth quarter. Your response was: "Well, they're rated the #1 defense, so how much better could they be?"

The answer: even better than they were. Again, the goal isn't to attain a prioritized rating in a list. It is tangible results. I don't know what "super elite" means, but one would have to think that being consistently in the top 20 since things snapped into place with the zone beginning in 2010 is a pretty good indicator of both elite caliber performance and consistency. I'm also a firm believer that the zone yields certain things, takes away others. So the numbers might not always be comparable to other teams.

In this case, I don't think that the numbers tell the comprehensive story. I also think that, while the OP's intent was nothing more than to stir up dopey controversy, he unintentionally makes a minor intelligent point: conference foes will eventually figure the zone out to some extent. That doesn't mean what he was insinuating--that we will start to get run by big, bad ACC teams as soon as they figure out our ostensible "gimmick"--but rather that they'll start to acclimate a little once they see it year in, year out. Doesn't mean that they'll have the talent / gameplanning / coaching needed to exploit it, but they will gain some level of experiential familiarity that will enable some teams [not all, but some] in conference to play us better than the mean.

That said, that experiential "advantage" evaporates for the most part in the NCAA tournament, when we face new teams who aren't familiar with our system / personnel. I think that the hype is attributable to two things: first, we've had an amazing run for three straight years. In 2012, we had only three losses, attained a #1 ranking, and in general an impressive all around year [don't get me started on that OSU debacle]. Last year was a final four team. This year we're 23-0 right now and ranked #1.

Amazing run. And impressive performance begats attention from the sports media which in turn begats narrative about why our team is good. And what makes us different? Viola, the zone.

BTW, I agree about the offensive performance. We're a damn good team... on both sides of the ball.
 
Not one possession in a half court offense in at least a couple years. Your data is not accurate. 6% would equate to 2-3 minutes per game. That just ain't happening.

As for other teams catching up and playing zone. If it were that easy other teams would do it. The only way to switch is to be all in and practice it every day. Coaches won't do that because of period of sucking on defense the team would have to go through. On the offensive end, teams do get better at it but you need the right personnel of having a big man that can hit the foul line jumper and multiple three point threats. Not as easy as it sounds.

Personally speaking, I think that the OP is a clown whose only intent was to rabble rouse. So this response isn't to support him.

But to your point about the 6%--here's a thought: we DO play some press situationally on defense. Not sure how much / what percentage, but might that account for the variance?
 
Personally speaking, I think that the OP is a clown whose only intent was to rabble rouse. So this response isn't to support him.

But to your point about the 6%--here's a thought: we DO play some press situationally on defense. Not sure how much / what percentage, but might that account for the variance?
it's mostly a zone press (so it would go under zone anyway), and SU has not used it that much this year - certainly nowhere near 6% of either possessions or game time
 
if we average 60 possessions a game, then 6% is about 4 possessions a game . . . every game. Now, if they categorize our press as man (I think its a zone press), that's a few, but it ain't 4 times a game. probably at the most half a dozen times and that only in a few games.

the other possibility is on fast break opportunities for the other team, when they beat the defense back. It's probably easier to get to 6% using those possessions. I guess you can call all transition defense man defense, because it's just a jailbreak.

if that's the case, then I stand corrected -it's not a data collection problem. It's a semantic problem. We are a 99 to 100 percent zone team - when the defense is set and it is a matter of choice. We never "switch" to man by design.
 
not once that I can recall.

anyone else? Bueller?

I could be wrong, but it is a tiny number, nowhere near 6% of possessions. I'm not saying this to be confrontational. Just giving you the insights of a tuned in fan who watches every game. take it or leave it.
Not once, do we set our defense in man to man, as everyone on this board knows.
 
Last edited:
The answer: even better than they were. Again, the goal isn't to attain a prioritized rating in a list. It is tangible results. I don't know what "super elite" means

I think I agree; I'm pointing to those tangible results. They point to a really good defense. (As for the super elite, well it's basically something I just made up so I can make it whatever I want. But as a for instance, if things end where they are now, this would be the first time since 2oo5 Kansas finished outside the top 11 in defensive efficiency (they had one year at 11th). But there seems to be (and i could be wrong) a lot more ink spilled on the SU defense than the KU defense, even though Kansas has had a better defense basically every year for over a decade.

In this case, I don't think that the numbers tell the comprehensive story. I also think that, while the OP's intent was nothing more than to stir up dopey controversy, he unintentionally makes a minor intelligent point: conference foes will eventually figure the zone out to some extent. That doesn't mean what he was insinuating--that we will start to get run by big, bad ACC teams as soon as they figure out our ostensible "gimmick"--but rather that they'll start to acclimate a little once they see it year in, year out. Doesn't mean that they'll have the talent / gameplanning / coaching needed to exploit it, but they will gain some level of experiential familiarity that will enable some teams [not all, but some] in conference to play us better than the mean.

Ha, see now I'm gonna go the other way. I don't think this is a huge factor, though it might be a small one. We had the best defensive in BE games in 2012; those teams had certainly had experience against it. We were just awesome.

That said, that experiential "advantage" evaporates for the most part in the NCAA tournament, when we face new teams who aren't familiar with our system / personnel

This gets to the crux of it for me. Do we perform any better in the tournament than you'd expect us to, based on our regular season performance? I'm basically asking for someone else to crunch the numbers here. Last year would certainly be a data point in favor of that, though at the same time, our best defensive performance purely on a points per possession basis in the tournament last year was against Marquette. (I'm throwing Montana out)

And as for Perkins, well, I'm sure OKC would give him back to Boston now, if they're interested... (this was the 2012 east finals I take it?)
 
it's mostly a zone press (so it would go under zone anyway), and SU has not used it that much this year - certainly nowhere near 6% of either possessions or game time

Yeah, just a thought.
 
GoSU96 said:
This clown used to post on one of the old boards.

Think he was a BC fan.
 

Similar threads

Forum statistics

Threads
169,739
Messages
4,849,845
Members
5,979
Latest member
SYRtoBOS

Online statistics

Members online
267
Guests online
1,360
Total visitors
1,627


...
Top Bottom