All Time SU Roster(s)

[General20]

How do we get this far with not even a mention of Preston Shumpert? No crap intended, maybe there's something I don't know?

I think you make a great point. He played small forward (sometimes power forward!) on pretty bad teams by SU standards. If he played now a days, he'd have more talent around him and be a two guard, so he'd look a lot better both offensively and defensively.

 

[RF2044]

I'll preface this by stating "no offense", but - there's no way to state this without offending people:


Anyone who has AO on ANY all-time SU hoops player list (for anything besides epicly awful FT shooting) is on drugs.

I love the guy, and appreciate what he did for us, but he's not even in the Top 5 (or probably Top 10) SU centers.
Period.

His "offense" was monster dunks, and O-reb putbacks of his own bricked shots.

If you saw DC1, then you saw Rony.
Who is 1000x better than AO at everything in basketball.

Also: Fab (much as we hate to mention his name) and Rak would be ahead of AO too, just in recent vintage.

Shump or Southy at forward??
Just, NO.

Cmon people.

No offense, but you are out of your mind if you have Fab over AO on an all time SU list. Onuaku would have eaten Fab alive in the post.

 

[Conrad13]

This is just too much fun. I started watching SU sports in the mid 80's so I'm sure that I'm missing some good older players. I went a little nuts but I couldn't stand leaving some players off so I kept adding teams. I feel like my big men started to taper off in talent before my guards. One thing I noticed is that my third team, and maybe my fourth team, would give my first team a good game. After that the overall talent starts to drop a bit.

First Team

1. Pearl

2. Bing

3. Melo

4. Coleman

5. Seikaly


Second

1. Sherm

2. Thompson

3. Owens

4. Wallace

5. Thomas


Third:

1. Flynn

2. Moten

3. Wes Johnson

4. Warrick

5. Christmas


Fourth:

1. MCW

2. Waiters

3. Gbinije

4. Rick Jackson

5. Onuaku



Fifth Team:

1. Hart

2. McNamara

3. Kris Joseph

4. Fair

5. Otis Hill


6th Team

1. Autry

2. Rautins

3. Shumpert

4. Damone Brown

5. Forth

 

[721Comstock]

No offense, but you don't know what the hell you're talking about if you have Fab over AO on an all time SU list. Onuaku would have eaten Fab alive in the post.

LOL.
Fab had like 4" on AO, better mobility, and was the BE DPOY.
And was a first round draft pick.

But honestly - NEITHER OF THEM belong on any SU all-time list.

Newer-vintage SU fans consistently overrate and overvalue AO.
His best season statistically was his Jr year, when he avg'd 10.3, 7.3, and 1.4 blocks.
Very solid, but hardly All-Time SU worthy.

I'd take Sr Rak over him, and it's not even close.

 

[RF2044]

LOL.
Fab had like 4" on AO, better mobility, and was the BE DPOY.
And was a first round draft pick.

But honestly - NEITHER OF THEM belong on any SU all-time list.

Better mobility? LOL--ok.

That at least put your opinion in context.

Fab was a first round draft pick--BFD. He was recently listed as the worst player in the entire NBA when he was with Boston, and is considered one of the worst draft picks of all time. AO would have torched him all day, every day.

 

[721Comstock]

Better mobility? LOL--ok.

That at least put your opinion in context.

Fab was a first round draft pick--BFD. He was recently listed as the worst player in the entire NBA when he was with Boston, and is considered one of the worst draft picks of all time. AO would have torched him all day, every day.

Yet, AO has never had more than a cup of coffee in the NBA.
Hmmm. He's so great, and would have torched the BE DPOY. :crazy:

Yeah, Fab was a bust as a Pro.
So was Pearl.
And Moten. And Owens.
And J-Dub. And... AO.

As a college player, at his best, Fab was much better than AO was.
That's why he got drafted and AO didn't.

 

[Waltdods]

Nothing you are saying is wrong, but I'd argue that the team I picked would operate more like an NBA team and doesn't need a traditional point guard. On defense it has no weak points, and nothing to exploit. Its A+ in every area from positional defense, to forcing turnovers, to blocking shots, to rebounding. On offense it would look like a spread the floor and exploit the mismatch type of NBA offense. Gbinije (39% from 3) Rautins (41% from 3) and Johnson (40% from three) hang out behind the line and dump the ball down low to either Coleman or Ownes (whoever has a bigger mismatch). The offense would flow through one of those two guys, either of which is more than capable of dominating their opponent or passing the ball to an open man if the double team came. If, for some reason, a team could match up with both of Owens and Coleman (maybe the Mutumbo & Mourning Georgetown team?) then you bring in a true point guard like Jardine and an automatic scoring machine like Anthony off the bench and run a more typical college offense.


Now if you want a really fun, exciting to watch, team, then you take Sherman Douglas and surround him with four guys who can run the court and dunk. None of them need to be able to handle the ball since he can handle all that. Bonus points if one or two of them can shoot.

Douglas
Nichols
Johnson
Warrick - Imagine Douglas throwing him alley oops!
Christmas - would love to have Keita's motor in this position, but not his hands

It's an interesting thought but I still think you're under-rating talent and over-rating zone capability. Obviously any of these hypothetical all-star teams would hammer a normal college basketball team. But since you mentioned Mutumbo and Morning, imagine that all-time Syracuse was going to play all-time Georgetown. The Georgetown team might look something like (1) Iverson, (2) Sleepy Floyd, (3) Reggie Williams, (4) Jeff Green, (5) Ewing. I think it's unlikely even the best zone stops that that team from putting up points, and that G, Rautins, and Wes would all really struggle to get shots against the aggressive man-t0-man from top-level athletes. (None of Wes/G/Rautins, despite their ostensible fit for an NBA offense, have made any mark in the NBA, recognizing that G's story isn't fully written yet.) Owens probably has a bit of a matchup edge over Green but not to such an extent that he's going to be automatic and force the D to collapse (and if he is, they could bring in Zo.) (1) Douglas (2) Rautins (3) Anthony (4) Owens (5) Coleman gives you 85% of the defense and 200% of the offense.

 

[tee1222]

I'll preface this by stating "no offense", but - there's no way to state this without offending people:


Anyone who has AO on ANY all-time SU hoops player list (for anything besides epicly awful FT shooting) is on drugs.

I love the guy, and appreciate what he did for us, but he's not even in the Top 5 (or probably Top 10) SU centers.
Period.

His "offense" was monster dunks, and O-reb putbacks of his own bricked shots.

If you saw DC1, then you saw Rony.
Who is 1000x better than AO at everything in basketball.

Also: Fab (much as we hate to mention his name) and Rak would be ahead of AO too, just in recent vintage.

Shump or Southy at forward??
Just, NO.

Cmon people.

I am putting AO on this list just because I wanted a post coming off the bench who had a knack for getting points in the point Edit: (that should read points in the paint, but I will leave it there just cause it's pretty funny!). Just a role player in this specific context, but all good things - to each his or her own.

And about this:
"His "offense" was monster dunks, and O-reb putbacks of his own bricked shots."
Was that serious? Check the tape! He had an array of low post moves. This is the opposite of what most of us remember I am guessing.

 

[tee1222]

btw, those highlight vids on youtube of AO are not indicative of his game at SU. They are more like recruiting mix tapes

 

[721Comstock]

No love for Southerland? Smooth shooting, deadly range, and a big plus in the zone at 6'8".

I really can't do things like this. They make my head hurt and I'll be at it all day.

Minus defender.
Minus rebounder.
Couldn't really create his own shot.
Not a playmaker.
One-trick pony.

Which of:
Bing, Moten, Owens, Wallace, Melo, Coleman
(and even Wes)
are you putting Southy in over, at wing/forward?

Exactly. You're not.

 

[RF2044]

Yet, AO has never had more than a cup of coffee in the NBA.
Hmmm. He's so great, and would have torched the BE DPOY. :crazy:

Yeah, Fab was a bust as a Pro.
So was Pearl.
And Moten. And Owens.
And J-Dub. And... AO.

As a college player, at his best, Fab was much better than AO was.
That's why he got drafted and AO didn't.

Complete and utter bunk. AO was better than Fab throughout his career, and certainly was better than Fab his senior year compared to Fab's sophomore year. Fab was a better shot blocker -- no argument there -- but AO did just about everything else better except shoot free throws.

Honestly, I question your hoops acumen if you make the claim highlighted above with a straight face. AO didn't get drafted because of his poorly timed quadriceps injury, and because the league doesn't have too many 6-9 centers. Besides, the "making the NBA" argument is a last resort for those who don't understand that it doesn't remotely have anything to do with how effective players are at the collegiate level.

Christ, you could even make the case that AO had a BETTER NBA career than Fab.

 

[721Comstock]

Complete and utter bunk. AO was better than Fab throughout his career, and certainly was better than Fab his senior year compared to Fab's sophomore year.

Honestly, I question your hoops acumen if you make the claim highlighted above with a straight face. AO didn't get drafted because of his poorly timed quadriceps injury, and because the league doesn't have too many 6-9 centers. Besides, the "making the NBA" argument is a last resort for those who don't understand that it doesn't remotely have anything to do with how effective players are at the collegiate level.

Christ, you could almost make the case that AO had a BETTER NBA career than Fab.

I was making a point.
Which clearly is going over your head.

AO is to SU centers, what CJ Fair is to forwards.
A very good, 4-year player, who is beloved by fans, and overrated regarding his actual abilities.

(And I really love me some CJ Fair. And AO too, frankly. He was a very important part of my favorite SU team.)

As I said, NEITHER belongs on ANY all-time SU list.

I'd take Rak over either of them, personally.

But - he would be behind:
Seikaly, Bouie, and Etan.

When you're debating guys who are not Top 5 at their position in an All-Time listing, then you're really not seeing the forest for the trees. :noidea:

 

[xc84]

Yet, AO has never had more than a cup of coffee in the NBA.
Hmmm. He's so great, and would have torched the BE DPOY. :crazy:

Yeah, Fab was a bust as a Pro.
So was Pearl.
And Moten. And Owens.
And J-Dub. And... AO.

As a college player, at his best, Fab was much better than AO was.
That's why he got drafted and AO didn't.

I could name at least 8 centers from SU's past I would rather have on my team than Fab.

Bouie, Seikely, Schayes, AO, Etan Thomas, Christmas,Forth,

Heck.. I might give Siock a look before Fab.

 

[RF2044]

I was making a point.
Which clearly is going over your head.

AO is to SU centers, what CJ Fair is to forwards.
A very good, 4-year player, who is beloved by fans, and overrated regarding his actual abilities.

(And I really love me some CJ Fair. And AO too, frankly. He was a very important part of my favorite SU team.)

As I said, NEITHER belongs on ANY all-time SU list.

I'd take Rak over either of them, personally.

But - he would be behind:
Seikaly, Bouie, and Etan.

When you're debating guys who are not Top 5 at their position in an All-Time listing, then you're really not seeing the forest for the trees. :noidea:

#1, CJ was a first team all american his senior year. He certainly belongs on a list of the all time best 20-30 players in program history. That doesn't mean that he is the BEST player at the forward position in program history, a distinction that you apparently fail to comprehend. Adrian Autry isn't the best point guard in program history, and didn't play in the NBA, but he belongs on the list of best guards. See how that works? Danny Schayes played 19 years in the NBA, by far our longest tenured former player--does that mean he should be atop the list of our best centers? Lawrence Moten is the program's all time leading scorer, but only had a cup of coffee in the NBA. See how one does not correlate to the other, or are you still confused?

#2, if you look at my OP in this thread, you'll see that my two deep at center don't include AO. AO is in the next group, and clearly belongs in the discussion. Fab does not, despite being a first round draft pick, and ultimately one of the biggest busts in NBA draft history. Literally. Which is why your forest through the trees accusation, while amusing, is about as off target as many of the rest of the wacky opinions you've expressed throughout this thread.

#3, agreed on Rak--I'd take him over both AO and Fab.

 

[MGP]

I could name at least 8 centers from SU's past I would rather have on my team than Fab.

Bouie, Seikely, Schayes, AO, Etan Thomas, Christmas,Forth,

Heck.. I might give Siock a look before Fab.

Otis Hill, Conrad, Keita...

 

[xc84]

Yet, AO has never had more than a cup of coffee in the NBA.
Hmmm. He's so great, and would have torched the BE DPOY. :crazy:

Yeah, Fab was a bust as a Pro.
So was Pearl.
And Moten. And Owens.
And J-Dub. And... AO.

As a college player, at his best, Fab was much better than AO was.
That's why he got drafted and AO didn't.

Fab would be first on my All-Lob team.

 

[tee1222]

#3, agreed on Rak--I'd take him over both AO and Fab.

I will say this. In fairness to 721, I might change to take Rony over AO and Rak is right in that discussion as well, just that Rak didn't get to his offensive mojo until Senior year, but he really wasn't featured until then.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I'll preface this by stating "no offense", but - there's no way to state this without offending people:


Anyone who has AO on ANY all-time SU hoops player list (for anything besides epicly awful FT shooting) is on drugs.

I love the guy, and appreciate what he did for us, but he's not even in the Top 5 (or probably Top 10) SU centers.
Period.

His "offense" was monster dunks, and O-reb putbacks of his own bricked shots.

If you saw DC1, then you saw Rony.
Who is 1000x better than AO at everything in basketball.

Also: Fab (much as we hate to mention his name) and Rak would be ahead of AO too, just in recent vintage.

Shump or Southy at forward??
Just, NO.

Cmon people.

So wrong. Do you watch basketball?

 

[xc84]

I am only going starting five. My team is:
Bouie - C
DC -
Marty Byrnes -
Sherman- G
Bing- G

I loved Pearl but if I had to choose a guard after Bing, it's Sherman)

 

[721Comstock]

#1, CJ was a first team all american his senior year. He certainly belongs on a list of the all time best players in program history. That doesn't mean that he is the BEST player at the forward position in program history, a distinction that you apparently fail to comprehend. Adrian Autry isn't the best point guard in program history, and didn't play in the NBA, but he belongs on the list of best guards. See how that works? Lawrence Moten is the program's all time leading scorer, but only had a cup of coffee in the NBA. See how one does not correlate to the other, or are you still confused?

#2, if you look at my OP in this thread, you'll see that my two deep at center don't include AO. AO is in the next group, and clearly belongs in the discussion. Fab does not, despite being a first round draft pick, and ultimately one of the biggest busts in NBA draft history. Literally. Which is why your forest through the trees accusation, while amusing, is about as off target as many of the rest of the wacky opinions you've expressed throughout this thread.

#3, agreed on Rak--I'd take him over both AO and Fab.

We're doing a 2-deep roster. Not a list.

But, at a school where Melo, Moten, Wallace, Coleman, etc have also played forward, he's not entering the discussion.
Which is why my bringing him up was the first time his name got mentioned in this thread.

Actually, Red Autry was a very good PG, but again, after Pearl and Sherm - who are locks at 1 & 2, although one may choose to debate the order.
It really doesn't matter who #3 is, on a 2-deep roster.
Whomever they are, it's a distant 3rd, given these 2.

AO does NOT "belong in the discussion".
He's seriously not even in the Top 5.
Which - again - on a 2-deep, is getting pretty preposterous.

I leave this last bit here:
If I were choosing a big for a SU team, and my choices were AO or RickJack - I'd pick Rick.
And Rak over either of them.
YMMV.

 

[721Comstock]

So wrong. Do you watch basketball?

I watched Pearl, Sherm, Stevie, DC, and Rony from the student section.

 

[Conrad13]

Fab would be first on my All-Lob team.

Lobotomy?

 

[RF2044]

We're doing a 2-deep roster. Not a list.

But, at a school where Melo, Moten, Wallace, Coleman, etc have also played forward, he's not entering the discussion.
Which is why my bringing him up was the first time his name got mentioned in this thread.

Actually, Red Autry was a very good PG, but again, after Pearl and Sherm - who are locks at 1 & 2, although one may choose to debate the order.
It really doesn't matter who #3 is, on a 2-deep roster.
Whomever they are, it's a distant 3rd, given these 2.

AO does NOT "belong in the discussion".
He's seriously not even in the Top 5.
Which - again - on a 2-deep, is getting pretty preposterous.

I leave this last bit here:
If I were choosing a big for a SU team, and my choices were AO or RickJack - I'd pick Rick.
And Rak over either of them.
YMMV.

We are? Didn't realize those were the rules. The OP suggested building a team roster of 12, but many other posters took that initial discussion in a much different direction about the top players in program history, numerous teams beyond 2, etc.

No argument that AO doesn't belong on the first two teams.

But when you take away that restraint you've imposed, and responded to this thread in the way that many other posters have chosen to interpret this thread--sure, AO belongs in the conversation for the next group of top centers. Personally, I'd put him below Seikaly, Smith, Bouie, Rak, and Thomas.

 

[Knicks411]

Fab in his soph year was a really big time defensive force.

If we're trying to put together a team to win games, I think I might lean to Fab over AO just because the rest of the roster is going to have a lot of scoring and Fab can provide some elite rim protection. If the discussion is just who was better as a player, AO might get the nod; the dude shot 65% from the field for his career and it was not just all on dunks/putbacks.

CJ was a consensus second team AA, not first. Unless Wiki is lying, I don't think he made any first teams.

 

[Tom K.]

Minus defender.
Minus rebounder.
Couldn't really create his own shot.
Not a playmaker.
One-trick pony.

Which of:
Bing, Moten, Owens, Wallace, Melo, Coleman
(and even Wes)
are you putting Southy in over, at wing/forward?

Exactly. You're not.

You'll have to excuse me, as I was born in '88 and my earliest memories of Cuse is '96. Even that is fuzzy.

I have a hard time including a guy who played 20 years before I was born and ultimately it's why I didn't attempt to cobble a team together at the risk of insulting folks such as yourself who have fond memories of "the greats".