An age old discussion (minutes logged)

[anomander]

Can people still deny that Boeheim's refusal to use the bench doesn't have a negative effect on game outcomes? How many times do we need to have a late 2nd half collapse for him to realize, god forbid, that he may be wrong, and players do get tired. We basically played 6 men on Saturday...in a December game. Two guys played 45 minutes, 1 played 40, and Rak would have been up there if not for foul trouble. I know the other side of the argument... He really wanted to win...Would you rather have so or so in. It's not about that. It's being able to give your guys breaks throughout the game so there is no fatigue when it matters. Or is it that Jim is the only one who is correct, and all these other famous coaches are wrong because they utilize their bench? Do these other programs have deeper benches so when they substitute their starters there is no drop off in production? Absolutely not. They do so not only for player development (there is such thing), but to keep their guys fresh. I know this topic has been beat to death, but the evidence is stacking up. We have never really been all that good closing games. I remember far more games we failed to close out, then we made big comebacks. This year alone we collapsed late in the game versus Nova, St. John's, La Tech, and Michigan. I don't think this is a coincidence, and is one of my biggest beefs with JB.

 

[Eagles20]

Cooney did looked gassed late in the second half.

 

[Cusefan0307]

There probably is some diminishing returns, but to play devils advocate, I saw Duke play UConn last week and win with 17 minutes and zero points from Sulaimon off the bench. Every point came from the starters. It's not just JB who does it.

Also, our bench has been so bad that the diminishing returns from our starters might actually be greater than what the bench has to offer.

 

[two3zone]

Who plays?

Sorry, we don't go to OT and probably lose by 10 if BJ and Buss got 20 minutes between them.

They're clearly not close to ready and everybody who was on the court outside maybe McCullough contributed a ton. And you're not taking McCullough out for BJ or Buss.

We're not a good team 7-the end of the bench. They'll get some run these next few games but the significant minutes will stop during ACC play.

Bottom line, we play deeper and we lose more. We play less we win more but are gassed. I vote we win more while being tired than lose and be less fatigued.

 

[br801]

When JB plays a relatively short bench and his teams are proficient at closing out games and/or rallying late to pull out tight games (which accurately describes many recent SU teams), nobody bitches. Funny how that works.

 

[upperdeck]

cooney looks gassed all game long because he is always moving.. doesnt mean he is really tired.

 

[anomander]

Oh yes I forget. He does no wrong. Carry on

 

[Czar]

When JB plays a relatively short bench and his teams are proficient at closing out games and/or rallying late to pull out tight games (which accurately describes many recent SU teams), nobody bitches. Funny how that works.

I can't think of any SU teams in the past 5 years that did that.

 

[pearl31]

 

[Czar]

Who plays?

Sorry, we don't go to OT and probably lose by 10 if BJ and Buss got 20 minutes between them.

They're clearly not close to ready and everybody who was on the court outside maybe McCullough contributed a ton. And you're not taking McCullough out for BJ or Buss.

We're not a good team 7-the end of the bench. They'll get some run these next few games but the significant minutes will stop during ACC play.

Bottom line, we play deeper and we lose more. We play less we win more but are gassed. I vote we win more while being tired than lose and be less fatigued.

We still choked up a 15 point lead with those starters, soooo, sorry if I don't see your point.

 

[Millhouse]

cooney looks gassed all game long because he is always moving.. doesnt mean he is really tired.

this is an amazing post

 

[anomander]

When JB plays a relatively short bench and his teams are proficient at closing out games and/or rallying late to pull out tight games (which accurately describes many recent SU teams), nobody bitches. Funny how that works.

Since when were we going 6 deep? At least it's usually 7. Going 6 deep in December is ludicrous. Nobody does that.

 

[two3zone]

We still choked up a 15 point lead with those starters, soooo, sorry if I don't see your point.

So if the cheerleaders were eligible we could just throw them out there, I mean we lost anyways so I guess any point that anybody makes defending his short bench is kinda boned.

You'll never convince me than two sub 30% shooters which one is extremely suspect on the defensive end deserve pt, especially against Nova.

 

[two3zone]

Since when were we going 6 deep? At least it's usually 7. Going 6 deep in December is ludicrous. Nobody does that.

We would have against Nova if there wasn't foul trouble.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Since when were we going 6 deep? At least it's usually 7. Going 6 deep in December is ludicrous. Nobody does that.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400586736

 

[br801]

I can't think of any SU teams in the past 5 years that did that.

Right. But somehow they were able to go 30-5, 27-8, 34-3, 30-10 and 28-6 in that stretch. And the 30-10 team reached the Final Four.

 

[Eagles20]

cooney looks gassed all game long because he is always moving.. doesnt mean he is really tired.

Wait...what? He's just playing possum?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Right. But somehow they were able to go 30-5, 27-8, 34-3, 30-10 and 28-6 in that stretch. And the 30-10 team reached the Final Four.

But if Dashonte Riley played during the regular season?!?! Don't you understand? We would of beat Butler.

 

[pfister1]

Can people still deny that Boeheim's refusal to use the bench doesn't have a negative effect on game outcomes? How many times do we need to have a late 2nd half collapse for him to realize, god forbid, that he may be wrong, and players do get tired. We basically played 6 men on Saturday...in a December game. Two guys played 45 minutes, 1 played 40, and Rak would have been up there if not for foul trouble. I know the other side of the argument... He really wanted to win...Would you rather have so or so in. It's not about that. It's being able to give your guys breaks throughout the game so there is no fatigue when it matters. Or is it that Jim is the only one who is correct, and all these other famous coaches are wrong because they utilize their bench? Do these other programs have deeper benches so when they substitute their starters there is no drop off in production? Absolutely not. They do so not only for player development (there is such thing), but to keep their guys fresh. I know this topic has been beat to death, but the evidence is stacking up. We have never really been all that good closing games. I remember far more games we failed to close out, then we made big comebacks. This year alone we collapsed late in the game versus Nova, St. John's, La Tech, and Michigan. I don't think this is a coincidence, and is one of my biggest beefs with JB.

Michigan is a bad example. We were down by as much 10 points with seven minutes to go and came back and tied it. We certainly didn't collapse. And I don't know that we ran out of gas, but we did make some stupid plays that prevented us from getting the win.

I don't recall a whole lot of collapses.

Anyway I am generally a believer that we should play more guys. I don't think we collapsed on Saturday because of the short bench because people were tired. We may have collapsed because we didn't have adequate backups to replace guys that were in foul trouble though.

 

[upperdeck]

this is an amazing post

5 min into the game cooney will be wringing with sweat.. is he gassed already? winded and gassed are 2 vastly different things on the court.

 

[anomander]

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400586736

I see Uconn played 10, and Duke played 9. I'm not asking for huge breaks. Just a few minutes each half.

Does Pitino substitute Montrez Harrel because he has somebody waiting to come off the bench? No, he does it to keep him fresh. This isn't rocket science.

 

[orange79]

As br801 says above, JB has done this for years, and when it works, it's not a problem. It's how he coaches - he is what he is. I tend to trust a HOF coach when he thinks that playing a short bench means the guys not playing aren't ready/aren't good enough. But that's just me.

 

[br801]

But if Dashonte Riley played during the regular season?!?! Don't you understand? We would of beat Butler.

That's on JB for not assuming Onuaku would be going down before the NCAAT. Another shameful example of JB not being able to see the future and failing to develop the bench.

 

[81South]

I would like to see more guys play but I don't think most players get tired and need to sit...if they cut the timeouts in half then I may agree with you.

 

[Czar]

That's on JB for not assuming Onuaku would be going down before the NCAAT. Another shameful example of JB not being able to see the future and failing to develop the bench.

That's the point. You can't see the future.