An age old discussion (minutes logged)

[dollarbill44]

Who plays?

Sorry, we don't go to OT and probably lose by 10 if BJ and Buss got 20 minutes between them.

They're clearly not close to ready and everybody who was on the court outside maybe McCullough contributed a ton. And you're not taking McCullough out for BJ or Buss.

We're not a good team 7-the end of the bench. They'll get some run these next few games but the significant minutes will stop during ACC play.

Bottom line, we play deeper and we lose more. We play less we win more but are gassed. I vote we win more while being tired than lose and be less fatigued.

This is always an argument that I see. Who is calling for 20 minutes? How about 10-12 minutes between them? That's a pretty good rest for a couple of guys. As for losing by 10, that's purely speculation on your part and no way to prove or disprove it. You also didn't allow for option #3 - we play gassed and we lose more, or option #4 - we play deeper and win more. Those things can happen.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

When Rak and McCullough get into foul trouble, the internet panics at the thought that our two leading scorers and rebounders will have to sit on the bench for a long stretch during the 1st half.

Yet when they're NOT in foul trouble, the same internet wants the two of them benched anyways.

Silly internet.

 

[jordoo]

I think this is an age old argument because neither side is right or wrong. Plenty of coaches play it both ways successfully. Its a coaching philosophy issue which the evidence cannot prove or disprove either way. Those that don't agree always point to it as a reason after failure even though its not necessarily the reason. Disagreeing with it philosophical doesn't mean that's why the team loses or is unsuccessful.

I mean like it or hate it JB's system has been successful over 70% of the time. That's pretty good but there are also coaches who play lots of guys lots of minutes and are just as successful which is why we still see the argument. When you disagree philosophically with a coaches system its natural to hit on those points when the team loses right or wrong.

 

[anomander]

I guess this is why I find it so weird when guys like Lebron James, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant etc etc etc get subbed for at the same time in the 1st and 2nd half. Surely their replacements are just as good. Then again Scott Brooks, or Kevin McHale aren't Hall of Fame coaches.

 

[jordoo]

When Rak and McCullough get into foul trouble, the internet panics at the thought that our two leading scorers and rebounders will have to sit on the bench for a long stretch during the 1st half.

Yet when they're NOT in foul trouble, the same internet wants the two of them benched anyways.

Silly internet.

They rest themselves by getting into foul trouble why limit them more? LOL. I would like to see Kaleb and Cooney get a breather though especially since Mike can play in the backcourt and Tyler is coming on. 6 guys around 32-35 minutes isn't as bad as 2 guys with 40 and the other 4 splitting the remaining 120.

 

[Orangeman]

That's on JB for not assuming Onuaku would be going down before the NCAAT. Another shameful example of JB not being able to see the future and failing to develop the bench.

Have said this before, and it's not "anti-Boeheim"...it's called devils advocate...

But he's earned that HoF designation over 40 years, and the game changes. We gotta change with it

Seasons are longer now, they just are. More games, more conference tournament games, etc

More/longer travel.

And contrary to opinion we sometimes see on this board "Development" does not really happen in practice, it needs to come in the games.

I don't have the data but did our starting guards each play over 40 mins the other night? That can't happen, it just can't. Cooney is not a physical specimen and KJ is a freshman. Is Patterson that bad he can't be coached up to go in and play/hustle don't turn the ball over make an open shot if it's there etc?

It's got to happen, not just this year but beyond for player development purposes, but also to make sure your legs are fresh for ball handling and free throws at the end. This is all pretty standard basketball stuff.

I

 

[anomander]

That's on JB for not assuming Onuaku would be going down before the NCAAT. Another shameful example of JB not being able to see the future and failing to develop the bench.

That's a really terrible example to make your argument. How about if Riley actually had some game experience throughout the season he would have been able to fill in better when it actually mattered. You know that player development thing again.

 

[jordoo]

That's a really terrible example to make your argument. How about if Riley actually had some game experience throughout the season he would have been able to fill in better when it actually mattered. You know that player development thing again.

I think we have seen enough of Riley at Eastern Michigan to know he wasn't going to be enough to get us through to the end but certainly if he was more ready we could have advanced further than we did. I still think Kris and Rick not really showing up against Butler cost us more than Riley not being very good or experienced. That game was close and has some strange calls down the stretch which could have pushed us over the top if they were different. The argument could be made that Kris was worn out because I do recall he was a bit banged up but no one played extended minutes in that 7 man rotation because Scoop and Kris played around 20 each off the bench.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

That's a really terrible example to make your argument. How about if Riley actually had some game experience throughout the season he would have been able to fill in better when it actually mattered. You know that player development thing again.

Or not.

Riley averaged over 25 minutes a game in his last season at EMU: he managed 4.2 points and 6.0 rebounds a game.

And he fouled out of 10 games.

Playing against the MAC.

If 400-500 minutes of practice time each week didn't bring out his inner Patrick Ewing, I'm not convinced that 8-10 minutes of playing time would make a difference.

 

[Full_Rebar]

That Final 4 team played 8 guys, the 11-12 team played 9 (MCW was 10th man), but hey let's keep pretending that it was a 6 man rotation like we saw on Saturday.

If we have 4 star top 100 HS players, can they kill a team playing 2 minutes per half? Would those two minutes of rest plus the tv timeouts allow for better final minutes is a fair question to ask.

 

[anomander]

Or not.

Riley averaged over 25 minutes a game in his last season at EMU: he managed 4.2 points and 6.0 rebounds a game.

And he fouled out of 10 games.

Playing against the MAC.

If 400-500 minutes of practice time each week didn't bring out his inner Patrick Ewing, I'm not convinced that 8-10 minutes of playing time would make a difference.

Then it's Boeheim's fault for recruiting him.

 

[rrlbees]

History doesn't support your argument. Jb has always played a short bench and always played his best players big minutes. We've rarely had big issues closing out games. You're just using this seasons 3 failures to justify a longer bench which isn't happening. We didn't fail to finish because someone played an extra few minutes.

 

[anomander]

History doesn't support your argument. Jb has always played a short bench and always played his best players big minutes. We've rarely had big issues closing out games. You're just using this seasons 3 failures to justify a longer bench which isn't happening. We didn't fail to finish because someone played an extra few minutes.

How many seasons have we got out to a great start only to stumble to the finish line? How many times have we flamed out of the NCAAT earlier then expected? There's much more to it then the 3 failures this year.

 

[Jack Hall]

Cooney did looked gassed late in the second half.

he was bent over grabbing his shorts w 10 mins left in regulation. not good

 

[dasher]

Can people still deny that Boeheim's refusal to use the bench doesn't have a negative effect on game outcomes? How many times do we need to have a late 2nd half collapse for him to realize, god forbid, that he may be wrong, and players do get tired. We basically played 6 men on Saturday...in a December game. Two guys played 45 minutes, 1 played 40, and Rak would have been up there if not for foul trouble. I know the other side of the argument... He really wanted to win...Would you rather have so or so in. It's not about that. It's being able to give your guys breaks throughout the game so there is no fatigue when it matters. Or is it that Jim is the only one who is correct, and all these other famous coaches are wrong because they utilize their bench? Do these other programs have deeper benches so when they substitute their starters there is no drop off in production? Absolutely not. They do so not only for player development (there is such thing), but to keep their guys fresh. I know this topic has been beat to death, but the evidence is stacking up. We have never really been all that good closing games. I remember far more games we failed to close out, then we made big comebacks. This year alone we collapsed late in the game versus Nova, St. John's, La Tech, and Michigan. I don't think this is a coincidence, and is one of my biggest beefs with JB.

Here is what you are not seeing. If he played those guys earlier, the game wouldn't be close late. We didn't lose saturday because we were tired.

 

[dasher]

How many seasons have we got out to a great start only to stumble to the finish line? How many times have we flamed out of the NCAAT earlier then expected? There's much more to it then the 3 failures this year.

we stumble at the end because we are playing better teams than we face earlier in the season. Everyone stumbles late.

 

[anomander]

Here is what you are not seeing. If he played those guys earlier, the game wouldn't be close late. We didn't lose saturday because we were tired.

You don't know that. Why doesn't every coach implement that strategy then? Some coaches play tight benches, but JB plays the tightest. His reasoning is college kids don't get tired. I think that's debatable.

 

[anomander]

we stumble at the end because we are playing better teams than we face earlier in the season. Everyone stumbles late.

Most teams improve as the season goes on. We go the opposite. Why is it Louisville seems to improve every year. Same with Kentucky. Calipari and Pitino typically play more guys. It makes sense that they struggle early, only to get better because the bench guys develop through playing time as the season goes on, plus your starters have fresh legs.

 

[CorduroyG]

He should play a deeper bench and mix in some man to man while he's at it.

 

[Jack Hall]

You don't know that. Why doesn't every coach implement that strategy then? Some coaches play tight benches, but JB plays the tightest. His reasoning is college kids don't get tired. I think that's debatable.

very debatable. in big (playoff) games lebron and kobe usually sit before the stretch run. wonder why

 

[dasher]

You don't know that. Why doesn't every coach implement that strategy then? Some coaches play tight benches, but JB plays the tightest. His reasoning is college kids don't get tired. I think that's debatable.

First, I don't know that other coaches don't play benches as short as ours. I do know that very few programs are as successful as we are, so there is that. One thing I do know, we have one of the best winning % in the history of college basketball. So your argument is that if JB listened to anomander, he would have an even better %. I don't but it. And when Jb has players, he usually uses them. He did three seasons ago. The guys on our bench right now, don't play well enough.

 

[dasher]

very debatable. in big (playoff) games lebron and kobe usually sit before the stretch run. wonder why

you are comparing the guys on an nba bench with ours? You are comparing the nba game with the college game? Silly.

 

[CorduroyG]

very debatable. in big (playoff) games lebron and kobe usually sit before the stretch run. wonder why

I'm a laker fan and Phil would always rest Kobe to start the 4th qtr, even in the finals. Drove me nuts when lakers were losing but he wanted him fresh for crunch time. Think he did it with Jordan too.

 

[dasher]

Most teams improve as the season goes on. We go the opposite. Why is it Louisville seems to improve every year. Same with Kentucky. Calipari and Pitino typically play more guys. It makes sense that they struggle early, only to get better because the bench guys develop through playing time as the season goes on, plus your starters have fresh legs.

yeah, the ville and Kentucky. Same as us.

 

[CorduroyG]

you are comparing the guys on an nba bench with ours? You are comparing the nba game with the college game? Silly.

Good point. JB doesn't have the luxury of subbing in another nba player, not a fair comparison.