An Offensive Philosophy Change

[phil77]

3 yards and a cloud of dust (or turf pellets).

So exciting I can't wait

 

[ORRange]

You guys the use the dome as an excuse to have an air it out offense are honestly out of your mind. What school that runs a successful spread isn't in or immediately bordering California, Texas, or Florida? The northeast is our recruiting base and we have to play to that strength -- that is far more important than some tiny field advantage. How many successful B1G teams run a 5 wide spread year in and year out? This is laughable.

I disagree. Leach implemented it at Washington St. and they are playing fun and gun pretty well. Boise St has had success with it in Idaho for over a decade. Of the top twenty passing teams in the country 13 are outside or don't border Cal, Texas or Fla If we committed to recruiting for it and ran with it, we could surely do it. They've done it at Boise St, but we can't do it here? I think if a B1G team ran it they would stockpile players wanting to play there.

 

[007]

Oregon is running the ball 58% of the time, Baylor 56%. SU by contrast runs the ball 52% of the time.


Yeah Texas Tech throws the ball 63% of the time, and they are 2-4. Wash. St. throws it 77% of the time and they are 2-5.

There are four teams out of the 125+ D-1 teams that throw the 60% or more, Wash St, 2-5, Texas Tech, 2-4, Cinci 2-3, Western Kentucky 2-3.

I'd love to have the Baylor offense here, that's why when Marrone left I thought they should call Phil Montgomery.

Still do.

Baylor's Offense would be a perfect model for the Dome. Briles, who cut his teeth with Mike Leach, uses a 4 wide, 1 back set hybrid Spread Offense. They use extra wide splits, even the inside WRs are often at or wider than the hash marks. They often send all WRs on deep vertical routes and either pass deep or gouge you inside with a power running game. Everything Baylor does is built around speed and maximum spacing to stress defenses and attack on multiple parts of the field - in the screen game, short passing, deep verticals, power running, and zone read.

Some of that should sound vaguely familiar (absent the deep vertical passing game)

 

[dinosaurbbq]

So does this article settle all questions about Lester as OC beyond this season? Personally, I think Shafer needs to wait it out a bit. No need to commit to this guy just yet. I understand the concerns about continuity and stability but we're going to lose that anyway if Lester goes in a significantly different direction offensively. They've just spent three years (including this incoming recruiting class) remaking the offensive personnel. This is where changing philosophies really hurts.

Shafer has shown himself to be too impulsive as HC (on the sideline, in his off-the-field decision-making). You need to have a level head in that position. No need to show your cards at this point. Let's see how Lester finishes the year and then make a decision.

I agree HCSS should wait and see how Lester's offense pans out the rest of this year. I strongly disagree with the rest of that last paragraph, though. I don't think HCSS is impulsive at all, let alone too impulsive. Do you personally know him? I love his sideline demeanor actually and hated Marrone's, but at least that is a legitimate argument to have. I think his off field decision making is just fine. We are still waiting to see how much of the offense's failings were GMD and how much was Hunt and others on the execution side. If it's execution, that is no indication of an off field impulsiveness. If it's GMD, that still isn't impulsiveness by HCSS. A bad result or even a bad hiring decision on the offense still doesn't support your criticism or make Shafer impulsive.

 

[anomander]

Baylor's Offense would be a perfect model for the Dome. Briles, who cut his teeth with Mike Leach, uses a 4 wide, 1 back set hybrid Spread Offense. They use extra wide splits, even the inside WRs are often at or wider than the hash marks. They often send all WRs on deep vertical routes and either pass deep or gouge you inside with a power running game. Everything Baylor does is built around speed and maximum spacing to stress defenses and attack on multiple parts of the field - in the screen game, short passing, deep verticals, power running, and zone read.

Some of that should sound familiar (absent the deep vertical passing game)

Baylor's offense is actually really simple. I'd be willing to be they go vertical more then any other team in the country. They have defenses so spread out it only makes sense there will be openings. Obviously you have to have the speed to do it, but you recruit to those needs. It's not like Baylor started out by bringing in 4 star after 4 star.

If I could try to duplicate anyone's offense it would be theirs.

 

[phil77]

Baylor's offense is actually really simple. I'd be willing to be they go vertical more then any other team in the country. They have defenses so spread out it only makes sense there will be openings. Obviously you have to have the speed to do it, but you recruit to those needs. It's not like Baylor started out by bringing in 4 star after 4 star.

If I could try to duplicate anyone's offense it would be theirs.

Exactly these are the offensive that we need to replicate in the dome.

 

[Millhouse]

You guys the use the dome as an excuse to have an air it out offense are honestly out of your mind. What school that runs a successful spread isn't in or immediately bordering California, Texas, or Florida? The northeast is our recruiting base and we have to play to that strength -- that is far more important than some tiny field advantage. How many successful B1G teams run a 5 wide spread year in and year out? This is laughable.

You guys talk like following the herd of northeast dinosaur meathead gym teachers is sensible for recruiting.

 

[007]

Baylor's offense is actually really simple. I'd be willing to be they go vertical more then any other team in the country. They have defenses so spread out it only makes sense there will be openings. Obviously you have to have the speed to do it, but you recruit to those needs. It's not like Baylor started out by bringing in 4 star after 4 star.

If I could try to duplicate anyone's offense it would be theirs.

The irony here is that GM kinda sorta was trying to do something similar here before he deviated from that plan. Google interviews from the time he was named OC and he talked about using the Spread to emphasize a power inside running game. He talked a lot about being physical and spreading the field at the same time.

Part of the problem, IMO, is that he either lost faith in the vertical stretch and/or didn't think he had the personnel to get it done. If you can not make the screen game work, and you don't stretch the D vertically, it's really hard to run inside consistently.

Lester showed a willingness to go vertical regardless of the QB, and the inside run game benefited. He also made a great adjustment to the bubble screen game by sending the RB in arc and using a flare pass to hit the RB while they were moving forward but still behind the LOS, with WRs blocking on the edge. Much more effective with our talent.

 

[Crusty]

3 yards and a cloud of dust (or turf pellets).

We are finding out they are carcinogens so that is out.

 

[Crusty]

If we want to fill the Dome we have to have an exciting game that puts points on the board. The NFL knows what fans want and it isn't 14-10.

We don't have to have Heisman Trophy winners to succeed just a talented QB and fast receivers that can leap and catch. The rest we have. We seem to grow good lineman like weeds and are never short of capable running backs.

A solid offensive scheme that features vertical passing can come in a variety of packages. We had one in 2012 and that team could have won 10 games and broken into the top 25.

To my mind a good offense must have enough flexibility to allow adaptation to the changes in talent each year. Not all do.

I think we are closer than we might think and next year our bigger problem might be the D.

 

[CuseOnly]

I think using the term "12 personnel" is kind of mis-leading. You could run a "12 Personnel" system and split out the "TE's" and it becomes a 4 wide system with 2 slot recievers with a simple substitution of One or Both of the TE's.

And we have always been able to power run or zone read with just our 5 linemen. Ask West Virginia.

I don't think we will see any wholesale changes at all. I think the only difference will be that we recruit a few more true TE's or hybrids like Custis and Enoicy in the future. We would have recruited guys like that anyways. Maybe we push for higher "rated" linemen in the future because as has always been the case, the Beef is where games are won.

 

[qdawgg]

The irony here is that GM kinda sorta was trying to do something similar here before he deviated from that plan. Google interviews from the time he was named OC and he talked about using the Spread to emphasize a power inside running game. He talked a lot about being physical and spreading the field at the same time.

Part of the problem, IMO, is that he either lost faith in the vertical stretch and/or didn't think he had the personnel to get it done. If you can not make the screen game work, and you don't stretch the D vertically, it's really hard to run inside consistently.

Lester showed a willingness to go vertical regardless of the QB, and the inside run game benefited. He also made a great adjustment to the bubble screen game by sending the RB in arc and using a flare pass to hit the RB while they were moving forward but still behind the LOS, with WRs blocking on the edge. Much more effective with our talent.

Or he talked about what he wanted to do but didn't really know how to effectively implement it or game plan for it based on what teams we were playing. It's easy to make a blanket statement about what you want to do, a ton of teams would love to run an offense like Oregon but not very many people can implement it successfully. And really that is the most important part.

I'm not sure he ever really deviated from his plan. From the start his idea of stretching the field was to throw the screen pass. We had a couple games where we threw a deep ball on the first (or second) play of the game and then never returned to that same play. We would run the ball successfully and then switch to a different play before the defense had even committed to stopping the run.

You can force defenses to do what you want if you are really talented on offense but when you're not, in some ways you need to run the plays that are working and force the defense to adjust before modifying the offensive play calls. I think this is one area that GM was not successful with

 

[HtownOrange]

If Lester is not the OC next season, go after Ralph Freidgen. He knows offense and we have enough tools that he can make something of it until he can stockpile what he wants. If Lester is staying, he needs to keep an up tempo, stretch the field, speed based plan. The power game should not be completely disposed of but speed is the name of the game and Syracuse has a guarantee of 6-7 perfect weather home games, visits to other climates that favor speed. Only BC and Pitt qualify as truly bad weather and that applies in November only. Louisville is generally not bad through most of the season. All other teams are Virginia and south. So we will only play 1 or two bad weather games. (No, I am not forgetting ND, but typically only 1 out of 3 years and more likely earlier in the season if not in the Dome.)

 

[retro44]

3 yards and a cloud of dust (or cancer pellets ).

 

[retro44]

Personally I would like a three wide set with this look

I doubt we reshape the recruiting class this far into the game. I truly think the look above should be what we should run. I think this gives us the flexibility to run so of the things we have dont this year so the kids don't have to relearn an entire playbook.

if you move that running back 2 yards up an a yard to the right, this play then looks familiar with a toss pitch for a safety

 

[NineOneSeven]

If we want to fill the Dome we have to have an exciting game that puts points on the board. The NFL knows what fans want and it isn't 14-10.

We don't have to have Heisman Trophy winners to succeed just a talented QB and fast receivers that can leap and catch. The rest we have. We seem to grow good lineman like weeds and are never short of capable running backs.

A solid offensive scheme that features vertical passing can come in a variety of packages. We had one in 2012 and that team could have won 10 games and broken into the top 25.

To my mind a good offense must have enough flexibility to allow adaptation to the changes in talent each year. Not all do.

I think we are closer than we might think and next year our bigger problem might be the D.

Unless it's the NFC west. Those games are typically low scoring but fun to watch. Not because offense is bad, but the defense is that good

 

[NineOneSeven]

if you move that running back 2 yards up an a yard to the right, this play then looks familiar with a toss pitch for a safety

That play is officially called "voldemort"

The play that shall not be mentioned

 

[GoSU96]

I don't mind running the ball but I don't want to see the 2 TE 2 running back sets and just push the pile ahead. I wanted spread offense. Explosive plays. Things like that. The offense we had against FSU last week is what I envision a Syracuse dome offense to look like. That offense is ran with 3 star players and we put up 20 on FSU. Anyone else should be in the 30's. Big plays to Ish. Felt like we focused on the run in FSU game and I loved that. It wasn't in a ground and pound fashion it was in the spread fashion.

Who said anything about Two Tight, Two RB's?

Where did that come from.

Since the CMU game they have been throwing the ball down field, there was nothing new about that last week. Still was stuck on 20. Nothing new about that either.

I was more impressed about the quick hitting between the tackles straight ahead trap game.

This offense hasn't lacked for explosive plays, it's been the least of its problems, what it has lacked is efficiency.

Just in the pass game:

Against Md, West went for 51 and 14, Lewis, 20 and 16, Broyld, 24, Estime 25, PTG 19.

Against ND,

West, 33, 28, 19. Estime 38 and 14, Moore, 14, Ishmael, 25, Lewis 46, Fleming 16

Against Lville

West 39, 13, 13, Lewis 48, Ishmael 22, Parris, 12

FSU

West 41, 13, Ishmael, 36, 36, 22, Fleming 17, 12, Lewis 15

West is doing pretty well for someone who is just a body that's been recruited over.

 

[Orangepace]

From Syracuse.c om., http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootb...changes_at_end_of_season_sh.html#incart_river

Just wondering, from the fan base that congregates here, who would like to see an offense ran primarily out of 12 personnel?

That's 1-RB and 2-TE's, also, Lester's primary offense at Elmhurst.

This is all assumed based on him actually adjusting Syracuse's personnel to fit that style of offense.

Do you think we'll see a re-shaping of our recruiting class?

Would you want to see us change our philosophy for the 4th time in 5 years?

Which philosophy do you prefer?

Put me in the group of fans that doesn't want to see this. Ground and pound is really not fun to watch. Honestly, I think that if this team sticks with the current offense and continues to upgrade the talent, it will be dynamite and exciting. We have talent at WR and I'd hate to see it negated by a move to a heavy rushing attack.

Btw... someone please throw Steve Ishmael the ball more! That kid is primed to be a stud with another season of S&C.

 

[RICuse44]

I think using the term "12 personnel" is kind of mis-leading. You could run a "12 Personnel" system and split out the "TE's" and it becomes a 4 wide system with 2 slot recievers with a simple substitution of One or Both of the TE's.

And we have always been able to power run or zone read with just our 5 linemen. Ask West Virginia.

I don't think we will see any wholesale changes at all. I think the only difference will be that we recruit a few more true TE's or hybrids like Custis and Enoicy in the future. We would have recruited guys like that anyways. Maybe we push for higher "rated" linemen in the future because as has always been the case, the Beef is where games are won.

Exactly. There are many ways to stretch a defense with many different types of personnel. Baylor goes 4 wide because that is where they create the best match up problems. Your nickel back can't cover their slots. If you have TEs that can play why not use them? And in this I would be talking about athletic TEs like Parris, Custis, and Lewis (particularly the last two) help exploit mismatches if they are covered by linebackers.

You can easily pass out of these formations and spread the field vertically. Just like you can run out of 4 wide sets like Baylor and Oregon. And you can run hurry up with any personnel. To me it is more important to recognize your team strengths and play to them.

 

[Millhouse]

Exactly. There are many ways to stretch a defense with many different types of personnel. Baylor goes 4 wide because that is where they create the best match up problems. Your nickel back can't cover their slots. If you have TEs that can play why not use them? And in this I would be talking about athletic TEs like Parris, Custis, and Lewis (particularly the last two) help exploit mismatches if they are covered by linebackers.

You can easily pass out of these formations and spread the field vertically. Just like you can run out of 4 wide sets like Baylor and Oregon. And you can run hurry up with any personnel. To me it is more important to recognize your team strengths and play to them.

the offense you run affects your future team strengths. tradeoffs between win now and win later

 

[SWC75]

 

[SWC75]

Or maybe...

 

[kcsu]

Unbalanced line with a sprinkle of the sissors is what we need

 

[SmilinBob]

I simply want an effective pass and run offense. One that is teachable and can be executed by the players and coaches for years on the hill so when players graduate or coaches leave it just smoothly glides into the next group. Expose defensive weaknesses and cause matchup problems and find a way to use the current rosters now and in the future effectively and to the best of their talent.