An Offensive Philosophy Change

[TheCusian]

It's classic chicken/egg stuff.

I think if you install what you want to do - but without the athletes to pull it off - you lose and you look bad doing it. Making it that harder to recruit.

I'd rather do it in stages - win some with what you have, install bits and pieces, recruit your arse off. I think that's what Shafer and McDonald were trying to do last year - and then McDonald gets anxious this year and starts installing a bunch of stuff again, despite having raw young athletes and a thoroughly mediocre QB. Whether we gave in too quick or not is up for debate. I kind of hope that Lester embraces some of both systems in this weird trial by fire.

 

[Millhouse]

It's classic chicken/egg stuff.

I think if you install what you want to do - but without the athletes to pull it off - you lose and you look bad doing it. Making it that harder to recruit.

I'd rather do it in stages - win some with what you have, install bits and pieces, recruit your arse off. I think that's what Shafer and McDonald were trying to do last year - and then McDonald gets anxious this year and starts installing a bunch of stuff again, despite having raw young athletes and a thoroughly mediocre QB. Whether we gave in too quick or not is up for debate. I kind of hope that Lester embraces some of both systems in this weird trial by fire.

i don't think you need great athletes to run these modern spread offenses. just because baylor and oregon are amazing and recruit amazing speed doesn't mean you have to have it. the only reason anyone runs this stuff is because of the success it had at lesser schools

 

[phil77]

Seems like the simple answer to all this is...

McDonalds System
McDonalds Recruits
Lester game plans
Lester call plays

McDonalds systems seems to be able to work all over the country. But McDonald had no clue how to game plan that system versus another team. He had no feel for when to run when to pass. How much to run and how much to pass. No clue when to call a bubble screen and when not too. Basically McDonald in the booth had no clue what was going. That doesn't mean the system he put in place is a failure it means he game planning and game calling was a failure. Lester called plays and game planned against FSU and everything looked and worked better.


Changing the system to a ground and pound system is a panic move and has a big bust potential and the potential to set this program back even more.

 

[GoSU96]

going 25 and 25 implementing your system, sticking around, and recruiting is obviously better than short term white knuckling, not recruiting and not sticking around

Well part of the reason he didn't stick around was that 25-25 wasn't good enough for a lot of people, taking the worst offense in D-1 to 17th wasn't good enough. Going to two bowl games in four years wasn't good enough.

Not recruiting? My guess is that Zach Allen or Austin Wilson would have had success in the 2012 offense. You're the one saying that talent hasn't been the thing holding back the offense this year.

I mean after all anybody would be better than Nassib according to your expert analysis and look what he did.

BTW Briles inherited a much better situation than Marrone did.

 

[GoSU96]

Seems like the simple answer to all this is...

McDonalds System
McDonalds Recruits
Lester game plans
Lester call plays

McDonalds systems seems to be able to work all over the country. But McDonald had no clue how to game plan that system versus another team. He had no feel for when to run when to pass. How much to run and how much to pass. No clue when to call a bubble screen and when not too. Basically McDonald in the booth had no clue what was going. That doesn't mean the system he put in place is a failure it means he game planning and game calling was a failure. Lester called plays and game planned against FSU and everything looked and worked better.


Changing the system to a ground and pound system is a panic move and has a big bust potential and the potential to set this program back even more.

What exactly is ground and pound?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

What exactly is ground and pound?

I am really holding myself back from making an inappropriate mom joke right now.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

baylor stunk forever tailoring their offense to what they had. briles went 8-16 his first two years. maybe they would've been better had thought more about what he had rather than what they wanted to be. i bet baylor fans are happy he didn't.

There were a bunch of problems at Baylor that led to 8-16 records his first two years. First, the Big 12 was pretty strong at that point (Oklahoma, Texas, Texas Tech each had 1 or 2 losses, plus 10 win Missouri and 9 win Nebraska and Okie State). Second, Baylor didn't have nearly the same athletes/talent to compete. He had to get talent in for it to be an effective offense. Third, it actually takes a while to get kids to understand an offensive system sometimes and in some cases for them to buy into the system. We are seeing that right now at WVU. Last year, after graduating effectively all of his outstanding offensive skill players, WVU was forced to play QB Clint Trickett and Trickett didn't buy into the system and didn't fully understand the system and what it could do for him. This year is night and day different. The offense now works. Add to that the effect of adding Bradley on the defensive side and WVU is hugely improved. Get ready for WVU to be a perennial power in the Big 12. With Strong at Texas, that is why I have said as many times on here as people will listen that the Big 12 is poised to take over as the best conference in the country within the next 5 years.

That doesn't equate to making it a bad decision for SU to have pulled play calling from GMD and giving it to Lester after the Louisville game. Briles had a ton of experience and had honed his offensive play diagramming and play calling well prior to Baylor. GMD had none. GMD's play diagramming has looked very poor. His play calling in sequence has been horrible. His inability to get plays in timely has been plainly evident. His constant shuffling of personnel has been ridiculous and counter-productive. His use of particularly players in particular roles in any given play has been absurd. GMD was obviously going to have to learn on the job, but it appeared he was not learning very fast what to do in that job. SU surrounded him with other offensive coaches with play calling OC coordinator experience, which is exactly what SU should have done. When it was apparent his slow learning process was costing the team significantly on the offensive side, HCSS acted as swiftly to resolve that as I hoped he would. It is my understanding that he resolved it last year with Lester taking over play calling part way through the season before turning the reigns back over to MCD at the start of this season to see what MCD had learned and how he had progressed. It is my belief (I could be right or wrong and have no inside info) that HCSS tried to do the same thing this year and MCD was not cooperative and so that the plan of pulling play calling from MCD and giving it to Lester turned into pulling MCD from OC and Assoc. HC duties and making him solely WR Coach. He then went to the press and that planned quiet transfer became public without SU making it public. I fully appreciate that Hunt may have been a major reason for the lack of offensive production here and that GMD's planned offensive system may be theoretically sound. I also believe it is likely the planned system isn't going to be scrapped, but that it will be better implemented by Lester. I think there is a possibility that MCD stays beyond this year, hones his knowledge of this system and how to implement it and actually gets another chance in the future to call plays for the orange.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

I'm sure you can find examples of both approaches working. You site Baylor. I site Syracuse in the Coach Mac. Early P era. Running the freeze option, we managed to recriut McPherson, Graves and McNabb, Moore, Carpenter, Hill, Harrison and Spotswood, even though we were running the ball most of the time. Why did they come here? We were winning! We could have run a pretty good spread with those guys if that's the way they wanted to go.

That was a long time ago. Time has passed that system by. Vertical passing is in! Offense is in! Spread offense is in! Given the proliferation of the spread offense since they were recruited, I would think not only would they be great in the spread, but that they would be great doing it somewhere else while we continued to ground and pound it.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

i don't think you need great athletes to run these modern spread offenses. just because baylor and oregon are amazing and recruit amazing speed doesn't mean you have to have it. the only reason anyone runs this stuff is because of the success it had at lesser schools

Bingo -- Success of that system isn't dependent on having the most talented guys. It is the great equalizer that allows for less recognizedly talented guys to succeed and prevail over more talented guys. However, for it to work as its intended, the players have to understand it and execute it well. For it to work and not look like a mess, at least the coaches have to understand it and how to implement it. I don't think MCD did. I don't think he was even close.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

Well part of the reason he didn't stick around was that 25-25 wasn't good enough for a lot of people, taking the worst offense in D-1 to 17th wasn't good enough. Going to two bowl games in four years wasn't good enough.

Not recruiting? My guess is that Zach Allen or Austin Wilson would have had success in the 2012 offense. You're the one saying that talent hasn't been the thing holding back the offense this year.

I mean after all anybody would be better than Nassib according to your expert analysis and look what he did.

BTW Briles inherited a much better situation than Marrone did.

BTW -- You're unbelievably and historically wrong. Briles took over coaching a team in the Big 12, which was a stacked conference at that time, that hadn't made a bowl game since 1994, hadn't been ranked in the top 25 since 1986, had only won as many as 5 games once since 1995, and had only won 11 total conference games in the 12 previous years. Marrone inherited a team in the Big freaking East. No doubt there were a few decent teams (WVU, Louisville, Cincinnati) but going to a bowl was eminently possible every year. Moreover, during that same period of time from 1994-2008, SU had been to 7 bowl games, winning more than half of them, had won 10 games once, 9 games 3 times, and was under .500 only 4 times. To make the two situations equal, SU would have had to have GERG level teams for the 15 years prior to Marrone taking over instead of ruining this program for only 4 long, horrible years.

 

[Millhouse]

Well part of the reason he didn't stick around was that 25-25 wasn't good enough for a lot of people, taking the worst offense in D-1 to 17th wasn't good enough. Going to two bowl games in four years wasn't good enough. .

Get a hold of yourself

 

[GoSU96]

BTW -- You're unbelievably and historically wrong. Briles took over coaching a team in the Big 12, which was a stacked conference at that time, that hadn't made a bowl game since 1994, hadn't been ranked in the top 25 since 1986, had only won as many as 5 games once since 1995, and had only won 11 total conference games in the 12 previous years. Marrone inherited a team in the Big freaking East. No doubt there were a few decent teams (WVU, Louisville, Cincinnati) but going to a bowl was eminently possible every year. Moreover, during that same period of time from 1994-2008, SU had been to 7 bowl games, winning more than half of them, had won 10 games once, 9 games 3 times, and was under .500 only 4 times. To make the two situations equal, SU would have had to have GERG level teams for the 15 years prior to Marrone taking over instead of ruining this program for only 4 long, horrible years.

Four year prior to Briles Baylor had won 15 games, vs 10 for SU the prior four, including a five win season in 2005.

Here are the prior four year averages for Baylor and SU before Briles and Marrone took over.

Stat Baylor SU
Total Offense 93 113
Rushing Offense 109 94
Passing Offense 44 94
Pass Efficiency 81 97
Scoring Offense 90 110
Total Defense 94 94
Rushing Defense 94 104
Pass Defense 78 71
Pass Efficiency Defense 75 82
Scoring Defense 99 86

The two years prior to Briles taking over Baylor had been 11th and 27th in pass offense. That's what I mean about situation. They were bad shape but not close to the depths SU was in terms of basic capabilities. Briles was not starting from scratch across the board.

So he had a more capable team on both offense and defense, being in Texas means he had better base to recruit, and bringing RGIII with him to Baylor from Houston might lead one to say he had a better situation to start than Marrone had when he took over at SU.

Unless you believe Greg Palus was equalized the starting points.

 

[SWC75]

That was a long time ago. Time has passed that system by. Vertical passing is in! Offense is in! Spread offense is in! Given the proliferation of the spread offense since they were recruited, I would think not only would they be great in the spread, but that they would be great doing it somewhere else while we continued to ground and pound it.

You've missed the point. I'm not saying we should go back to running the freeze option or "ground and pound". I'm saying that winning with what you've got brings in the recruits. Then you can do what you really want to do. Running a system that doesn't work with the guys's you've got seems the harder row to hoe. it might work but I agree with the point made above that posters like Millhouse would be the loudest complainers while you lose so you can win later.

 

[PeteCalvin]

I want an offensive system that moves the chains, scores more often than not, and wins football games. Period. If it's exciting, BONUS!

 

[Millhouse]

You've missed the point. I'm not saying we should go back to running the freeze option or "ground and pound". I'm saying that winning with what you've got brings in the recruits. Then you can do what you really want to do. Running a system that doesn't work with the guys's you've got seems the harder row to hoe. it might work but I agree with the point made above that posters like Millhouse would be the loudest complainers while you lose so you can win later.

We went four and eight with a one year guy running a bubble screen offense run by a guy coaching high school now

Let's not pretend like that his make do offense was some great success out of the gate. The offense sucked for three years.

 

[GoSU96]

I want an offensive system that moves the chains, scores more often than not, and wins football games. Period. If it's exciting, BONUS!

No it's better to be exciting, style over substance. Who cares if you win or lose as long as balls fill the air and cool kids have an identity they are trying to establish.

 

[GoSU96]

We went four and eight with a one year guy running a bubble screen offense run by a guy coaching high school now

Let's not pretend like that his make do offense was some great success out of the gate. The offense sucked for three years.

Who cares if it sucked for three years, did it in year four? You sure as hell didn't think what they did was possible. Christ you keep acting like he took over a middle tier program and was supposed to have a top 2o offense out of gate.

You can't even get basic math right and premises a whole indictment on a comparison that was ridiculously wrong and the reality was 180 degrees from what you asserted.

For such a "smart" guy you sure are a dope.

 

[Millhouse]

Who cares if it sucked for three years, did it in year four? You sure as hell didn't think what they did was possible. Christ you keep acting like he took over a middle tier program and was supposed to have a top 2o offense out of gate. You can't even get basic math right and premises a whole indictment on a comparison that was ridiculously wrong and the reality was 180 degrees from what you asserted. For such a "smart" guy you sure are a dope.

What math was wrong?

Baylor has an offensive identity and stability now. We are still trying to figure it out but hey we had a glorious eight win season where we cracked the top 60 in scoring.

Care to make any jokes about autistic kids rocking? You get really worked up

 

[GoSU96]

What math was wrong?

Baylor has an offensive identity and stability now. We are still trying to figure it out but hey we had a glorious eight win season where we cracked the top 60 in scoring.

Care to make any jokes about autistic kids rocking? You get really worked up

Care to revisit the whole Shiano fiasco?

Worked up? God forbid somebody punts from the 40, it's an indictment of their entire job.

Great comeback by the way. Is that the standard comeback when you have nothing now?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

No it's better to be exciting, style over substance. Who cares if you win or lose as long as balls fill the air and cool kids have an identity they are trying to establish.

You don't get it.

 

[GoSU96]

You don't get it.

Said the guy is who consistently wrong and never in doubt.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Said the guy is who consistently wrong and never in doubt.

Pull it together man, you couldn't even put proper grammar together to make that insult.

 

[Scooch]

Marrone left because he wasn't appreciated?

Huh?

There better be more to that throwaway comment.

 

[Chip]

BTW Briles inherited a much better situation than Marrone did.

At some point I think you're going to say that Jack Lengyel inherited a better situation at Marshall than Marrone did at Syracuse.

 

[Scooch]

At some point I think you're going to say that Jack Lengyel inherited a better situation at Marshall than Marrone did at Syracuse.

Outstanding.