Anyone concerned about all the JUCOs?

[qdawgg]

IHeartSUFball -- LOL, glad you took it as a joke. I couldn't help myself.

 

[SoBristol]

I'd say balanced in having the optimum number of kids at each position. 15 o-line and more than 3 safeties or 5 linebackers. Things like that. The roster is still way out of whack.

Not to quibble, but we might be slightly off optimal balance (short on OL) -- it isn't the biggest issue we have.
We have 4 returning safeties, and offers out to several jucos at that position (need 2 SS). We have 6 returning LBs, plus 2 HS recruits, and offers to several juco LBs. We have 10 OL (not counting Pugh) -- certainly have room for 2 additions in late recruiting.
The bigger issue is that the better HS recruits we offered ended up with rivals, and now we are scrambling.

 

[OrangeMojo]

considering that one of the JUCOs SU was recruiting just signed with Oregon and had am offer from aTm - I think it's safe to say that even programs that are KILLING it in recruiting HS kids are looking at this talent pool to fill spots on their roster and if possible to upgrade what they have

 

[PhatOrange]

Not to quibble, but we might be slightly off optimal balance (short on OL) -- it isn't the biggest issue we have.
We have 4 returning safeties, and offers out to several jucos at that position (need 2 SS). We have 6 returning LBs, plus 2 HS recruits, and offers to several juco LBs. We have 10 OL (not counting Pugh) -- certainly have room for 2 additions in late recruiting.
The bigger issue is that the better HS recruits we offered ended up with rivals, and now we are scrambling.

I was adding some context to the "replenished and balanced" part of your question. The roster is way out of whack. It's going to take another couple of years to get it balanced, which is what the other poster was saying.

While it appears there is some scrambling going on, these are all positions where there is nobody on the roster who is going to upgrade the positions nor is a current HS kid going to do it either. Save for a couple of OL kids, it's all defensive help being sought.

We need immediate help at Safety and Linebacker and to some extend Defensive End. I have no clue what the backup OLineman look like but it's probably safe to assume the current kids redshirting are not ready yet. But you look at safety and lb and those are the two positions that hurt this defense the most. A HS kid isn’t going to help that in 2013.

The bottom line for me is that Marrone has never shown he wants to take lumps now to win down the road. The guy is about winning now. The guy has always brought in JUCO's to fill immediate roster gaps to win now and that’s what they are doing. Bringing in a HS safety or LB or OL, doesn't help the team next season.

You may see it as scrambling but I see it as filling immediate holes with kids who can hopefully play/impact right away. And it also seems every juco is a Jan enrollee so these are kids they are expecting to play next season.

 

[chakka3421]

Actually has anyone heard anything about this kid - Donnie Simmons - I think he is 240 lb now and here were his high school stats - Ht: 6-3 Wt: 225 40: 4.59 - looks like a MLB to me assuming he has quickness and smarts to go along with his speed and size.

 

[PhatOrange]

Actually has anyone heard anything about this kid - Donnie Simmons - I think he is 240 lb now and here were his high school stats - Ht: 6-3Wt: 22540: 4.59 - looks like a MLB to me assuming he has quickness and smarts to go along with his speed and size.

Simmons was a kid with alleged outstanding athletic ability and great speed for his size. He was brought in as a skinny 220LB DE. He's not in the rotation yet. He played in every game this past year though at least on specials. He'll be a redshirt sophomore this upcoming season.

 

[RMH44]

Actually has anyone heard anything about this kid - Donnie Simmons - I think he is 240 lb now and here were his high school stats - Ht: 6-3Wt: 22540: 4.59 - looks like a MLB to me assuming he has quickness and smarts to go along with his speed and size.

I've often wondered the same thing. The kid is supposed to be a very good athlete. Maybe his skill set doesn't translate to MLB...who knows.

 

[SoBristol]

I was adding some context to the "replenished and balanced" part of your question. The roster is way out of whack. It's going to take another couple of years to get it balanced, which is what the other poster was saying.

While it appears there is some scrambling going on, these are all positions where there is nobody on the roster who is going to upgrade the positions nor is a current HS kid going to do it either. Save for a couple of OL kids, it's all defensive help being sought.

We need immediate help at Safety and Linebacker and to some extend Defensive End. I have no clue what the backup OLineman look like but it's probably safe to assume the current kids redshirting are not ready yet. But you look at safety and lb and those are the two positions that hurt this defense the most. A HS kid isn’t going to help that in 2013.

The bottom line for me is that Marrone has never shown he wants to take lumps now to win down the road. The guy is about winning now. The guy has always brought in JUCO's to fill immediate roster gaps to win now and that’s what they are doing. Bringing in a HS safety or LB or OL, doesn't help the team next season.

You may see it as scrambling but I see it as filling immediate holes with kids who can hopefully play/impact right away. And it also seems every juco is a Jan enrollee so these are kids they are expecting to play next season.

Still not following the idea that our roster is "way out of whack" four years into the Marrone era. He has done very well in filling in the mix -- and any depth issues (OTs) can be largely cured as we close this class, or certainly next year.
I am, and have been, all in favor of adding 3 or 4 jucos every year. It is a question of quality, as it is in HS recruiting. Several of our juco offers are out to prospects who would help immediately in key roles (MLB, SS, OT, an O-LB), if we land the better players. But there is a strong whiff of scrambling in the number of late offers, the offers to prospects who have no other offers (or only Marshall or Akron), and generally the amount of work that remains to close this class. It could end well and I hope it does.

 

[RoysRunts]

* As a former JUCO player that went Div 1, I may be a little biased.*

Look at it this way, when you recruit out of high school you are looking for potential.
When you go JUCO, you recruit to play now.
Most JUCO guys are brought in to fill an immediate need, mostly due to injury,transfer or busts.
Most JUCO's come in with 3 years to play 2 and have enough transferrable credit hours to avoid any future eligibilty problems.
There is almost never: homesickness, attitude, grade, effort or game study problems.
If a coach brings in a dud high schooler, they could potentially hog a scholly for 5 years.
The JUCO comes and goes in 2... dud, injury or star.

Just my opinion...some coaches absolutely refuse to bring in JUCO guys.

hasen't KSTATE had many JC Players over the Years?

 

[RF2044]

Maybe you can add some context to what you are saying (replenished and balanced).

If we land a few more jucos in this December-January push (two LBs, strong safeties, and an OT), this roster will be in good shape in numbers, and balance among positions. The issues are quality (landing an occasional 4 star or two), and improving our appeal to HS prospects in the summer round of recruiting. What we are doing now (lots of juco offers, our prospects still visiting others & not deciding until January) is a high wire act.

Sure--here is what I was talking about: last year was the first year that we were essentially at a full roster, after the original attrition that happened when Marrone took over. After the rough start, we began seeing the advantage of having a full roster with improved special teams play, etc. Overall, speed / athleticism / size has improved fairly significantly over Marrone's four years. That covers the "replenished" part. And please note that I'm not suggesting that we are all the way back in terms of where we need to be--just that the foundation is finally in place, and we're starting to land the athletes that will enable us to be legitimately competitive against our schedule--and it took four years to get there. The next phase of replenishment will be to start upgrading via recruiting, to get better players than the ones we currently have to solidify the foundation even further.

In terms of balance, we still have a few imbalances over how the classes are laid out at certain positions--especially at RB, OL, and LB. Which is one of the reasons that it makes sense to go after some JUCOs, which on paper should have the ability to contribute earlier than most high school prospects coming in. I don't think that the ENTIRE roster is necessarily "out of whack," but as we move forward we're going to see more HS recruits being able to be redshirted, to maximize their long term value as we don't [or won't] have to march as many out there just to fill holes on special teams [for example]. We're starting to see that manifest for certain positional units; not so much for others. But we're close, and that should iron out over the next few recruiting classes, since the aforementioned foundation is now in place with the roster.

This also factors in the premise that we aren't going to see recruiting classes chock full of four star recruits. Hopefully, we'll see more of them as we build upon the success that the team is having. The coaching staff overall seems to do a very good job of identifying good athletes who fit our system, but it might take some [or many] of these guys a year or two to round into form. That's not a bad thing--it just is the reality of the uphill recruiting we've faced going from the perception that we were the worst BCS program, to one that is now starting to have some on-field success.

 

[PhatOrange]

Still not following the idea that our roster is "way out of whack" four years into the Marrone era. He has done very well in filling in the mix -- and any depth issues (OTs) can be largely cured as we close this class, or certainly next year.
I am, and have been, all in favor of adding 3 or 4 jucos every year. It is a question of quality, as it is in HS recruiting. Several of our juco offers are out to prospects who would help immediately in key roles (MLB, SS, OT, an O-LB), if we land the better players. But there is a strong whiff of scrambling in the number of late offers, the offers to prospects who have no other offers (or only Marshall or Akron), and generally the amount of work that remains to close this class. It could end well and I hope it does.

4 safeties
6 linebackers
11 offensive lineman

This isn't good balance. It could be a couple of cycles to get the right balance - with all positions. Conversely this also includes having too many players at 1 position. Soon to be 5 QBs and 9 RBs.

JUCO players are typically offered (and commit) late - with any program - due to player and roster evaluations. JUCO's aren't offered in July unless they are either kids you've placed or bonafid studs.

I think we've missed on some players we've wanted but I don't believe we're scrambling for JUCO's as a result. Rather, I think we have some serious needs and we're offering Jan qaulified jucos who can immediately help this team.

 

[SoBristol]

OK Phat, but you are stretching the point. You are not figuring in the likely composition of this 2013 class. We have offers out to several JUCO safeties, hoping to land two; to at least 3 OTs, hoping for a couple; and to a least 2 LBs, plus a HS prospect who is a combo DE/LB. We don't have 6 LBs -- we will have at least 8 with the two commits, and it will likely be 10 by signing day if we have any luck with the juco offers.

5 QBs isn't out of whack, when 1 is a senior, 1 played RB and could play other positions, and we are very happy with our two recruits.

Your number for RBs must be including 3 FBs, who are marginal contributors. I am happy to see our depth at RB with the remaining group as Smith & Gulley will be seniors. No problem at all if we add Laray Smith to the mix and have a nice combination of insider runners, and speed, as well as some candidates to play other positions.


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[Van111]

bro, I love syracuse fooball more than 99 percent of people on there..am more optismtic than all... ill take majority of 3 stars and some jucos every year and get them coaches up..we wont get 4-5 stars on consistent basis...we just need stay away from 1-2 stars

That is all I am looking for. In the last 10 years, how many percieved 4/5 star talent has signed with us? I never said we are going to be an SEC like recruiting program, but to bring in a highly touted recruit, especially early in the recruiting process would pay dividends with those upper 3 star athletes. To help DM down the road, we need a couple of marquee players is all that will attract other good talent along with it. Example, land a Kamara type, and you just might give a huge boost for some of these kids down the road. Somebody mentions 4/5 star athletes on this site and you all over react. I say DM has the skill and the coaching staff to attract these type kids, don't under estimate him. And when I say 4/5 star talent, I am talking real talent, not what some recruiting site is promoting. But, like it or not, these kids look at these ratings and do care about it. My ideal recruiting year would look like this 20% 4 star or better/60% 3 star/ 20% JC or develop players. I don't call this unrealistic, and I believe that is what we need to go towards the world of being a contender. We just haven't been able to get close to that yet and when you don't have that level of athlete on your bench, where do you see it the most? I'll tell you...special teams. Can't play your starters out there because you don't have the depth to replace them. It is not a coincidence that special teams has been a trouble spot, and maybe its not the coaching. I do agree with your hind sight on 1/2 star talent, for the most part.

 

[Van111]

You need to start living in reality. We might get one or two 4 stars a year.

bnoro, you are the most realistic guy on here for sure, but to be clear on what I would like to see, in a bad recruiting year 0-1 4 star with majority 3 star with at least half in the upper part of the 3 category. In a good year, 1-3 4 stars with the same in 3 stars, and a great recruiting year, 3-6 4 star or better and the same. Is that unrealistic, becuase if it is, that is what Rutgers has been doin consistently, and if we can't recruit as good as them, what are we saying. I din't ask for any top 150 or 300 players, albeit would be nice.

 

[PhatOrange]

OK Phat, but you are stretching the point. You are not figuring in the likely composition of this 2013 class. We have offers out to several JUCO safeties, hoping to land two; to at least 3 OTs, hoping for a couple; and to a least 2 LBs, plus a HS prospect who is a combo DE/LB. We don't have 6 LBs -- we will have at least 8 with the two commits, and it will likely be 10 by signing day if we have any luck with the juco offers.

5 QBs isn't out of whack, when 1 is a senior, 1 played RB and could play other positions, and we are very happy with our two recruits.

Your number for RBs must be including 3 FBs, who are marginal contributors. I am happy to see our depth at RB with the remaining group as Smith & Gulley will be seniors. No problem at all if we add Laray Smith to the mix and have a nice combination of insider runners, and speed, as well as some candidates to play other positions.


I

Running Backs
1 Smith
2 Gulley
3 Broyld
4 Rene
5 Morris
6 McFarlene
7 Moore
8 Edwards
9 LSmith (TBD)

If you don't want to count Rene or LSmith that's fine but Rene is on the roster as a RB and I expect Laray to be at SU. Broyld has not been moved yet and neither has McFarlene. (maybe bringing in LSmith allows McFarlene to go back to safety - even though the staff sure liked him in late August at the tail.)

I personally think 4 QB's is the right depth.

We have 2 LB commits - which bumps the total to 8. We're going to probably add a JUCO or 2 - so lets call it 10. After that, do we have the right balance of SAMs, WILs and MIKES ?

Also have 2 seniors next year in Spruill and Coker.

We actually only have 9 returning offensive lineman. That's dangerously low if we suffer a couple of ACLs and a kid isn't panning out. 15 is widely considered a good total roster number and then you have to break that down by position.

Need the right mix of seniors on down to freshman for every position. So it's one thing to get the roster back up to 85 but then you need to balance it out. And clearly you're going to have kids not make an impact or attrition (med/grades/other) which obviously is part of the challenge of trying to achieve the right balance but why it needs to be done.

Sutomcat is usually pretty accurate with laying out the right mix/roster balance. I'm sure he's due for one of these threads.

 

[CaliCuse]

Running Backs
1 Smith
2 Gulley
3 Broyld
4 Rene
5 Morris
6 McFarlene
7 Moore
8 Edwards
9 LSmith (TBD)

If you don't want to count Rene or LSmith that's fine but Rene is on the roster as a RB and I expect Laray to be at SU.

I personally think 4 QB's is the right depth.

We have 2 LB commits - which bumps the total to 8. We're going to probably add a JUCO or 2 - so lets call it 10. After that, do we have the right balance of SAMs, WILs and MIKES ?

Also have 2 seniors next year in Spruill and Coker.

We actually only have 9 returning offensive lineman. That's dangerously low if we suffer a couple of ACLs and a kid isn't panning out. 15 is widely considered the total number and then you have to break that down by position.

Need the right mix of seniors on down to freshman for every position. So it's one thing to get the roster back up to 85 but then you need to balance it out. And clearly you're going to have kids not make an impact or attrition (med/grades/other) which obviously is part of the challenge of trying to achieve the right balance but why it needs to be done.

Sutomcat is usually pretty accurate with laying out the right mix/roster balance. I'm sure he's due for one of these threads.

Laray is being mentioned as a possible receiver as well as my preferred RB spot. Rene isn't going into the position as a serious RB. He even got dinged as a KR player. I want another CB player like Paige who has elite speed.Whigham and Ford never got on the field in their skill position potential. ST is a run and crash play that needs attention by the rules committees IMO.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Sutomcat is usually pretty accurate with laying out the right mix/roster balance. I'm sure he's due for one of these threads.

Was that a hint?

 

[bnoro]

bnoro, you are the most realistic guy on here for sure, but to be clear on what I would like to see, in a bad recruiting year 0-1 4 star with majority 3 star with at least half in the upper part of the 3 category. In a good year, 1-3 4 stars with the same in 3 stars, and a great recruiting year, 3-6 4 star or better and the same. Is that unrealistic, becuase if it is, that is what Rutgers has been doin consistently, and if we can't recruit as good as them, what are we saying. I din't ask for any top 150 or 300 players, albeit would be nice.

Since our staff doesn't use "stars" it doesn't matter where Scout/Rivals has guys ranked, right? If Zach Allen graded out as a 50 out of 50 to our staff I'd say that's a 5 star recruit.

It's unrealistic because Syracuse doesn't have a large subscriber base on Scout/Rivals so those guys won't get a bump like Rutgers did. We also don't have Brian Dohn to boost up and overrate our prospects.

 

[Franz69]

Zach Allen is currently a 2 star on $cout. Maybe he'll be almost as good as 2 star Donovan McNabb.

 

[Van111]

Since our staff doesn't use "stars" it doesn't matter where Scout/Rivals has guys ranked, right? If Zach Allen graded out as a 50 out of 50 to our staff I'd say that's a 5 star recruit.

It's unrealistic because Syracuse doesn't have a large subscriber base on Scout/Rivals so those guys won't get a bump like Rutgers did. We also don't have Brian Dohn to boost up and overrate our prospects.

I do like what I saw in the last 6 games, and with the right players around him, Zach very well could turn out to be quite special here. Have a friend that has been following him from Waco and saw him play a couple of times in the last 2 years. He knows his football, and thinks we have more than a diamond in the ruff with this kid. As for Rutgers, now that they are in the B1G, Dohn will probably be much worse in that area. Do you see a threat with the B1G presence in NYC now as it is much more than just Rutgers now?

 

[bnoro]

I do like what I saw in the last 6 games, and with the right players around him, Zach very well could turn out to be quite special here. Have a friend that has been following him from Waco and saw him play a couple of times in the last 2 years. He knows his football, and thinks we have more than a diamond in the ruff with this kid. As for Rutgers, now that they are in the B1G, Dohn will probably be much worse in that area. Do you see a threat with the B1G presence in NYC now as it is much more than just Rutgers now?

No. Nothing's going to change. After 5 years when Rutgers is on their 5th last place finish in a row we might be able to gain some more pull in Jersey.

 

[orangefog]

No. Nothing's going to change. After 5 years when Rutgers is on their 5th last place finish in a row we might be able to gain some more pull in Jersey.

Yeah, but with the B1G money, won't they be able to afford more helicopters? Or was that just Shady?