AP Poll #10 | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

AP Poll #10

Kansas has 3 losses. Sagarin has Syracuse number one in "pure elo" which is based only on winning (Colley Matrix has us at 2) but that is not necessarily the "better" team, just who has performed better. Pomeroy and Sagarin are more predictive in nature rather than descriptive. I think some voters (and people on this board) interpret the purpose of polls differently.

Is the poll to see who has achieved the most thus far or who is predicted to actually be the strongest opponent? If you think the poll should be for what you have accomplished, SU should be ranked number one or two but teams like LSU should be ranked (#23 in Colley and #24 in Sagarin pure elo) and UMass should be top ten (#3 in Colley and #10 in Sagarin's pure elo). This is what seeding is for - almost completely what you have accomplished in the season. The polls are a combination of this and what you would be predicted to do based on how you performed in past games.

Better teams perform better, no? You lost me with the latin or whatever Umass has no business anywhere near any form of top 10 ranking have you watched them? Kansas has 3 losses and they simply aren't all that good right now. You may very well be right about all these number things but I watch as many games as possible and use what I see more than what the numbers are to judge teams.
 
But he had us first, so he can keep his vote.

Eh, if you have some possible justification - who cares. Some years our non-conference schedule is brutal, and you can justify ranking us lower than everyone else. That being said, even with Ohio State having a fairly weak schedule, 16 seems out of sorts.

I'd issue him a yellow card.
 
I'm not saying Kansas is a top 5 team or anything, but I dont think you can write them off just cause they have 3 losses. They lost to Nova on a neutral court, who is pretty damn good, they lost @Florida, who is really good, and they lost @Colorado, another pretty good team. And none of those games were by more than 6 points. And they've beaten Duke and Georgetown, 2 pretty good teams.

I wouldn;t rank them ahead of SU, don't get me wrong. But somewhere in the latter half of the top 10 seems right to me. They've played a pretty tough schedule
 
Maybe the guy's using the Bo Derek rating system?

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Better teams perform better, no? You lost me with the latin or whatever Umass has no business anywhere near any form of top 10 ranking have you watched them? Kansas has 3 losses and they simply aren't all that good right now. You may very well be right about all these number things but I watch as many games as possible and use what I see more than what the numbers are to judge teams.

Better teams don't necessarily perform better. Just think of a team as generating random numbers from a distribution or a range where some numbers are more likely than others (points per possession, points allowed per possession, whatever). Based on what the team has done in the past games, you rate them by which team is expected to produce a higher point differential or something similar. So, a truly inferior team could win a single or just a few consecutive games (Butler) just by chance. You could roll two sixes on your first roll, even though this is the least likely outcome just like a team could win or lose one or two or three games but still be expected to be better than it seems. This doesn't even consider that those losses could be against good teams and having really good game numbers like turning it over twice.

If some teams are getting ranked by what they've done (SU: #2 in official polls, 1 or 2 in pure win-loss rankings but as low as 10 in predictive rankings) but others seem to be getting ranked by predictive systems (UMass: #22/23 in official polls, top ten in pure win-loss but low 20s in predictive rankings) that doesn't seem right. Then there's Duke that's 14 and 15 in Sagarin and Pomeroy, in the mid-20s and low 30s in pure win-loss but somehow gets to number 7 in the "official" poll. I guess they want a top ten match up when they come to the Dome.
 
I'm not saying Kansas is a top 5 team or anything, but I dont think you can write them off just cause they have 3 losses. They lost to Nova on a neutral court, who is pretty damn good, they lost @Florida, who is really good, and they lost @Colorado, another pretty good team. And none of those games were by more than 6 points. And they've beaten Duke and Georgetown, 2 pretty good teams.

I wouldn;t rank them ahead of SU, don't get me wrong. But somewhere in the latter half of the top 10 seems right to me. They've played a pretty tough schedule

Kansas fails the looks test for me. They are a top notch frontcourt weak ass backcourt team that could still win lots of games in the b12 yet come tourney time lack of a backcourt will be their undoing.
 
Yeah of course it wouldnt make it right. He should have his vote under investigation and removed. I hate people who abuse their power for their own personal gain. And his personal gain was removing us from the top spot as much as possible without making it too obvious but we saw his red flag he put out there.


What exactly would you investigate...Whether its really his honest to goodness opinion that there are 9 other teams out there that are better than us? It's a stinking poll, based on people's opinion. Stands to reason that there could be divergent opinions. Why do you want a poll that only allows guys who have the same opinion as each other to vote.

And how valid is a polling system that most likely wouldn't allow us to take over the #1 slot unless Arizona loses. Does that mean there is no argument that we are better than Arizona until they have a loss and we don't? And only 2 or 3 guys have bothered to look at our respective schedules and results and declare that we might actually be better than Arizona. I would prefer a little bit more variation in opinion amongst the pollsters.

Here is Wilner's justification for ranking us #1 and Arizona #2 in his most recent vote:
"Here’s the AP ballot I submitted Monday morning.


Not many changes from the previous week owning to the light holiday schedule.


There were only two games involving top-25 teams, several teams didn’t play and most worked off the Christmas rust with cupcakes.


* I moved Syracuse into the No. 1 spot after its impressive win over Villanova, with Arizona dropping to No. 2.


The Orange are undefeated with two top-shelf wins, Baylor and Nova, plus victories over Indiana and Minnesota.


That’s a better resume than Arizona can produce (undefeated; best wins: Duke, San Diego State and Michigan) and is the reason I swapped the teams at the top of the ballot."
 
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Ron Morris is simply just trolling us. Anybody from Boston would call this pulling a Shaughnessy in honor of the worst sports writer in the country Dan Shaughnessy. Not having Syracuse in the top 5 is only okay if you put teams like Arizona, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Iowa State in front of us. While I wouldn't put them in front of us its atleast debatable to put them in front of Syracuse. However, to put 2-loss Louisville who has absolutely no resumes win on thus far can't be put as #3 and Florida who has good wins against Kansas and Florida State but has 2 losses ahead of a team with wins over Villanova, Minnesota, Indiana, Baylor, California. I can't say anything more about Morris other than he is an assclown. Syracuse should be in the top 3 of all ballots IMO.
 
Ron Morris is simply just trolling us. Anybody from Boston would call this pulling a Shaughnessy in honor of the worst sports writer in the country Dan Shaughnessy. Not having Syracuse in the top 5 is only okay if you put teams like Arizona, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Iowa State in front of us. While I wouldn't put them in front of us its atleast debatable to put them in front of Syracuse. However, to put 2-loss Louisville who has absolutely no resumes win on thus far can't be put as #3 and Florida who has good wins against Kansas and Florida State but has 2 losses ahead of a team with wins over Villanova, Minnesota, Indiana, Baylor, California. I can't say anything more about Morris other than he is an assclown. Syracuse should be in the top 3 of all ballots IMO.

I think Morris is using it to drive traffic to The State Newspaper and ultimately his name. Really, how many of us would 1) know of him and 2) talk about him without his lame picks? It's a brilliant move to get his name in articles, forums and the sports world in general. It's how many of these newspaper guys got their break on tv and radio - get people pissed off and talking about them.
 
I think Morris is using it to drive traffic to The State Newspaper and ultimately his name. Really, how many of us would 1) know of him and 2) talk about him without his lame picks? It's a brilliant move to get his name in articles, forums and the sports world in general. It's how many of these newspaper guys got their break on tv and radio - get people pissed off and talking about them.
Absolutely spot on. We might take it to heart as it's the Cuse, but he's doing it for a reason. Probably earns his keep this way. Don't quit your day job, Ron...whatever that is. :)
 
I asked Clemson fans on FB board during the week of our matchup in October, and they said he is a douche and not liked by anyone and Morris isn't even allowed at Steve Spurrier press conferences at USC.
 
Better teams don't necessarily perform better. Just think of a team as generating random numbers from a distribution or a range where some numbers are more likely than others (points per possession, points allowed per possession, whatever). Based on what the team has done in the past games, you rate them by which team is expected to produce a higher point differential or something similar. So, a truly inferior team could win a single or just a few consecutive games (Butler) just by chance. You could roll two sixes on your first roll, even though this is the least likely outcome just like a team could win or lose one or two or three games but still be expected to be better than it seems. This doesn't even consider that those losses could be against good teams and having really good game numbers like turning it over twice.

If some teams are getting ranked by what they've done (SU: #2 in official polls, 1 or 2 in pure win-loss rankings but as low as 10 in predictive rankings) but others seem to be getting ranked by predictive systems (UMass: #22/23 in official polls, top ten in pure win-loss but low 20s in predictive rankings) that doesn't seem right. Then there's Duke that's 14 and 15 in Sagarin and Pomeroy, in the mid-20s and low 30s in pure win-loss but somehow gets to number 7 in the "official" poll. I guess they want a top ten match up when they come to the Dome.

I was trying to say in a nice way that mostly those number systems blow chunks and look pretty stupid on a handful of teams both ways till the whole season is over and still there are a few left that make you say What. Bottom line is that bball isn't about Math and advanced statistics. Yes you can use them to create certain pictures and ways to view teams but they will always have holes and strange outlying teams than just blow the thing up. I pretty much think that stuff is stupid as I don't need it to figure out why we win and lose games and who the better teams, players and coaches are.
 
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Back in the late 90's when the Big East football conference was weak, and people were claiming the MWC was better, I remember seing that the voters from the MWC area all excluded ALL Big East teams from their top 25 football polls. this was when everyone else was voting a couple Big East teams in the low to high teens.

People suck, they are hopelessly corrupt and politically motivated. Plus they're generally stupid and prone to confirmation bias, so polls being voted on by human beings are always going to have issues. It'd be far better if we sheet- canned the human polls and just relied on a couple computer polls like Sagarin. I realize that's never going to happen because people like to talk about "the eye test" (which is really code for "don't let facts overrule my pre-existing beliefs!") - like someone voting Syracuse #10 right now has watched games of nine other teams and concluded based on what he saw that Syracuse is weaker than those nine.
 

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