are there any JB defenders left?

[orangecuse]

Short of the dome, neither would have Louie, Rollie nor Thompson then.

The advent of ESPN played such a huge role in the league's successes with so many of the games being broadcasted nationally, weeknights, weekends, etc. All of those aforementioned coaches undoubtedly were great coaches in their own right, but I doubt anyone of them would've argued that the role of both ESPN & the Big East played a significant part in their successes as well.

That said, no one reaped the benefits more, IMO, than that of JB relative to the jewel in which the Carrier Dome was to Syracuse and its program. The Dome at the time was to the world of college basketball then, as was this thing some years later called the "information superhighway," better known today as the internet.
Except, that no one else had anything like it on its campus, it was exclusive.

I think you'd be quite naive to believe, relative to your "short of the dome" remark, that that in and of itself wasn't a complete game changer and how it separated Syracuse from its peers in many ways. It played a monumental role in JB's and Syracuse's success. Attempting to minimize such a huge attraction, advantages it brought, etc. would be somewhat disingenuous in my opinion.

 

[newmexicuse]

As several posters have pointed out above, the stars were aligned and the stage was set for Jimmy to be very successful. It is hard to imagine somebody having done better for the first 40 years or so. Just a little bit of better luck and Jimmy could have gotten 2 or 3 titles, which would have elevated his status even higher. Jimmy certainly deserves plaudits.

That being said, one never knows what an alternate history might have been. Probably less front end success and almost certainly some back end improvement over where we are now.

the big mystery in my mind, is that switching from Zone to M2M was such a critical and successful move in our NC title run, why then did M2M become such anathema in Jimmy’s mind ?

his biggest success resulted from changing D’s at the right time. Why...never again ????

 

[kingtidge]

the big mystery in my mind, is that switching from Zone to M2M was such a critical and successful move in our NC title run, why then did M2M become such anathema in Jimmy’s mind ?

his biggest success resulted from changing D’s at the right time. Why...never again ????

Because he is considered the "mastermind of the zone" in all of college basketball.

He let it become part of his professional identity.

You could argue throwing John Chaney into that bucket as well as "zone-mastermind", but he doesn't have the same success as JB has had with it (at least at the D1 level).

 

[rrlbees]

I don't know why some people need to retcon our history. Syracuse is SYRACUSE because of Jim Boeheim. Period.

Sure we had some prior success, but so did lots of eastern teams. Hell, Rutgers made a final 4 around the same time we did. Sure the conference and cable TV helped, but lots of other programs had those benefits as well. The Dome was unique, but only because we had teams worthy of filling the place, and that's what JB built.

Rollie and Louie and Rick and PJ had some nice runs, but there were two pillars of Big East hoops in the 80s/early 90s. SU and Georgetown. Both had that status because of the talent of their head coaches.

Right now people are mad at JB, the assistants, the program, JW, KS, the BOT and Santa Claus. They are knocking everything about SU and trying to minimize anything good past or present. Heck, one poster was belittling GMac about the NC game because he didn’t score in the 2nd half (although he hurt his wrist late in the 1st half).

 

[orangecuse]

Because he is considered the "mastermind of the zone" in all of college basketball.

He let it become part of his identity.

You could argue throwing John Chaney into that bucket as well as "zone-mastermind", but he doesn't have the same success as JB has had with it (at least at the D1 level).

Back in the day, Chaney received a lot of notoriety about his "match up" zone and how it created fits for opponents then. When they were ranked #1 in the country with Mark Macon, there was quite a bit buzz. Just not as much, since games weren't on 24/7 like nowadays, etc.

Yeah, no doubt, it became JB's identity, and he soaked in all the attention, accolades, etc. it brought him. But, make no mistake, there was a true 'mastermind' before him, and that was Chaney. JB derived his zone from the original orchestrator.

 

[newmexicuse]

Back in the day, Chaney received a lot of notoriety about his "match up" zone and how it created fits for opponents then. When they were ranked #1 in the country with Mark Macon, there was quite a bit buzz. Just not as much, since games weren't on 24/7 like nowadays, etc.

Yeah, no doubt, it became JB's identity, and he soaked in all the attention, accolades, etc. it brought him. But, make no mistake, there was a true 'mastermind' before him, and that was Chaney. JB derived his zone from the original orchestrator.

Hate to disagree, but Jimmy started coaching Cuse in 1976 and Chaney did not coach Temple until 1982, so it is hard to say that Jimmy derived his zone from Chaney.

 

[kingtidge]

Hate to disagree, but Jimmy started coaching Cuse in 1976 and Chaney did not coach Temple until 1982, so it is hard to say that Jimmy derived his zone from Chaney.

Chaney's College HC Gigs:
1972–1982 Cheyney State (1978 National Champs, D2)
1982–2006 Temple (D1)

 

[cuseinseattle]

Back in the day, Chaney received a lot of notoriety about his "match up" zone and how it created fits for opponents then. When they were ranked #1 in the country with Mark Macon, there was quite a bit buzz. Just not as much, since games weren't on 24/7 like nowadays, etc.

Yeah, no doubt, it became JB's identity, and he soaked in all the attention, accolades, etc. it brought him. But, make no mistake, there was a true 'mastermind' before him, and that was Chaney. JB derived his zone from the original orchestrator.

These two zones are nothing alike. Boeheim couldnt even articulate to you how Chaney's zone works. I have seen someone at a coaching clinic ask. I get the need to pile on but we don't have to say JAB stole the zone and inherited a great program from Dansforth and really it's justESPN the big east and the dome and he is just the luckiest guy on earth. He was a great coach who had a great career but needs to retire

 

[orangecuse]

Hate to disagree, but Jimmy started coaching Cuse in 1976 and Chaney did not coach Temple until 1982, so it is hard to say that Jimmy derived his zone from Chaney.

When did JB start playing zone regularly? I presume it was sometime after 1982.

 

[FrancoPizza]

When did JB start playing zone regularly? I presume it was sometime after 1982.

Cmon you should know this by now.

Before 1996 he alternated between defenses quite a bit. No real pattern.

1996 was the first year it became a “thing”- primarily because our players were slow footed.

1996-2008 he would play mostly zone but he would switch to man in the 2nd half if the deficit was 12+ points. Jason harts senior year (1999-2000) that team played a lot of man in certain games but vs MSU sweet 16 - we’re up 14 in the 2nd half and he never switched out of the zone while they kept torching us and finished the game on a 28-0 run or something. That team had final 4 potential completely wasted.

2009- maybe partly as a result of Flynn and Harris constantly begging him to play man in 2008 he decides to go 100% zone this year. He uses Lemoyne as proof that his players couldn’t do man.

2009-present: all zone with occasional trunk monkey

 

[orangecuse]

These two zones are nothing alike. Boeheim couldnt even articulate to you how Chaney's zone works. I have seen someone at a coaching clinic ask. I get the need to pile on but we don't have to say JAB stole the zone and inherited a great program from Dansforth and really it's justESPN the big east and the dome and he is just the luckiest guy on earth. He was a great coach who had a great career but needs to retire

FWIW, over the years, I have heard analysts make comments of some similarities, depending on the particular situation playing out in the moment, etc.

Your “stole the zone” and “really it’s just ESPN, the big east and the dome” are your words and your own interpretation as you see fit.

I haven’t said that JB wasn’t an excellent coach, only opining that the culmination of the aforementioned realities played a significant role in JB’s/SU’s successes.

Regardless of what some folks say relative to ‘JB is the program’ malarkey is simply one’s opinion, and in no way, shape or form a fact. Placing a “period” moniker behind such sentiment or any other similar type statement as if it is a matter of fact, only makes one appear foolish.

The fact is, Syracuse had successes before JB, and as others also have alluded to, had very recently been to a Final Four prior to JB taking over at the helm.

 

[orangecuse]

Cmon you should know this by now.

Before 1996 he alternated between defenses quite a bit. No real pattern.

1996 was the first year it became a “thing”- primarily because our players were slow footed.

1996-2008 he would play mostly zone but he would switch to man in the 2nd half if the deficit was 12+ points. Jason harts senior year (1999-2000) that team played a lot of man in certain games but vs MSU sweet 16 - we’re up 14 in the 2nd half and he never switched out of the zone while they kept torching us and finished the game on a 28-0 run or something. That team had final 4 potential completely wasted.

2009- maybe partly as a result of Flynn and Harris constantly begging him to play man in 2008 he decides to go 100% zone this year. He uses Lemoyne as proof that his players couldn’t do man.

2009-present: all zone with occasional trunk monkey

Yeah, a bit of sarcasm in my post. That said, sometime after 1982 still rings true.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Cmon you should know this by now.

Before 1996 he alternated between defenses quite a bit. No real pattern.

1996 was the first year it became a “thing”- primarily because our players were slow footed.

1996-2008 he would play mostly zone but he would switch to man in the 2nd half if the deficit was 12+ points. Jason harts senior year (1999-2000) that team played a lot of man in certain games but vs MSU sweet 16 - we’re up 14 in the 2nd half and he never switched out of the zone while they kept torching us and finished the game on a 28-0 run or something. That team had final 4 potential completely wasted.

2009- maybe partly as a result of Flynn and Harris constantly begging him to play man in 2008 he decides to go 100% zone this year. He uses Lemoyne as proof that his players couldn’t do man.

2009-present: all zone with occasional trunk monkey

I don't agree with the idea that we wasted an opportunity in 2000. MSU was a 1 seed and that game was in Auburn Hills. Also they won the whole thing. We were a 4. We lost some games down the stretch we shouldn't have.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I don't agree with the idea that we wasted an opportunity in 2000. MSU was a 1 seed and that game was in Auburn Hills. Also they won the whole thing. We were a 4. We lost some games down the stretch we shouldn't have.

We had control of the game well into the second half. JB did not make any adjustments. And this was a team that played really good man defense. Up 14 with 12 minutes to go and lose by 17. Do the math. That’s an epic collapse. There was no excuse not to switch. None. Zero.

Sick of the Auburn Hills argument. It’s a lazy trope. Now I’m all fired up.

 

[buffalorange]

With all due respect, the culmination and advent of ESPN, the Carrier Dome, the Big East Conference, along with Jim Boeheim, is what created the crescendo that became Syracuse basketball and to its national prominence. The amazing (otherworldly) timing of all of this, is really storybook in nature. JB does not reach the level of success without any of the aforementioned. Anyone to think or believe otherwise, is simply not being honest and sincere.

Additionally, prior to JB becoming the head coach at Syracuse, the Orangemen had just made a Final Four appearance with Jimmy Lee and co. So, there's that...

Of course, Coach Boeheim was an assistant coach for that team.

 

[DoctorBombay]

We had control of the game well into the second half. JB did not make any adjustments. And this was a team that played really good man defense. Up 14 with 12 minutes to go and lose by 17. Do the math. That’s an epic collapse. There was no excuse not to switch. None. Zero.

Sick of the Auburn Hills argument. It’s a lazy trope. Now I’m all fired up.

The issue is not the zone. The issue is "the zone or nothing"
A Jim Boeheim zone is an effective weapon- the record speaks for itself. A Jim Boeheim zone with no other alternative is stupid. If you're getting torched, shake it up. Try something different.
Going all in on anything is extremist. And extremism is ridiculous on its face.

 

[FrancoPizza]

The issue is not the zone. The issue is "the zone or nothing"
A Jim Boeheim zone is an effective weapon- the record speaks for itself. A Jim Boeheim zone with no other alternative is stupid. If you're getting torched, shake it up. Try something different.
Going all in on anything is extremist. And extremism is ridiculous on its face.

I don't think anyone is saying bury the zone 6 feet under, but like a bad breakup, everyone is going to need some time to recover. And it is getting harder and harder to justify situations and matchups where it will make sense. Short term with a new coach, I think we're going to see an intentional decision to distance our program from the zone, perhaps to an extreme, to avoid PTSD triggers within the fanbase.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

These guys just keep on lowering the bar lol. Sometimes I wonder if they want the program to be totally unremarkable just so they don't have to deal with callers.

 

[HOFCeluck]

These guys just keep on lowering the bar lol. Sometimes I wonder if they want the program to be totally unremarkable just so they don't have to deal with callers.

Gaslighting - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Tango32]

These guys just keep on lowering the bar lol. Sometimes I wonder if they want the program to be totally unremarkable just so they don't have to deal with callers.

Any of those teams .500 against Colgate in the last 4 years?

 

[orangecuse]

These guys just keep on lowering the bar lol. Sometimes I wonder if they want the program to be totally unremarkable just so they don't have to deal with callers.

Pathetic plain and simple.

When we entered the league, most reasonable folk believed that we would be a close 3rd behind Duke and UNC. Perhaps, not winning ACC titles regularly, but certainly challenging those two for it.

Virginia now and and has been what Syracuse was supposed to be, for the most part. We have fallen off a cliff and somehow are supposed to feel some solace because traditional hoop powers VPI and Miami (sarcasm) lead the pack in regards to being the best of the bad.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We had control of the game well into the second half. JB did not make any adjustments. And this was a team that played really good man defense. Up 14 with 12 minutes to go and lose by 17. Do the math. That’s an epic collapse. There was no excuse not to switch. None. Zero.

Sick of the Auburn Hills argument. It’s a lazy trope. Now I’m all fired up.

We should’ve gone man to man against Vermont too.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

Any of those teams .500 against Colgate in the last 4 years?

"Better things just aren't possible!"

 

[FrancoPizza]

We should’ve gone man to man against Vermont too.

Don’t get me started

 

[SWC75]

These two zones are nothing alike. Boeheim couldnt even articulate to you how Chaney's zone works. I have seen someone at a coaching clinic ask. I get the need to pile on but we don't have to say JAB stole the zone and inherited a great program from Dansforth and really it's justESPN the big east and the dome and he is just the luckiest guy on earth. He was a great coach who had a great career but needs to retire

We were in the 2/3 zone when Danforth was here.