Are we done with adding players for 2024-25?

[MikeSU02]

Agument is that there will be some improvement in at least some of the five returnees and that Lampkin + Davis + Carlos + Freeman + Moore > Hima + Mintz + Taylor + Copeland + Brown + Carey

There is no one on the team that has more talent or is better than Judah or Maliq.

I get the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and I was critical of Judah, but the current roster is not talented enough, period.

You cannot lose that much talent and just hope to god that everyone all of a sudden becomes their best selves because they are wearing a Cuse jersey.

 

[MikeSU02]

I don’t see it. Maliq and Judah were our two best players despite what people think about them. This looks like our typical 18-20 win team right now that ends up declining another NIT. Not enough shooting and the defense got worse.

Exactly. It ain't hard.

 

[Consigliere]

I don’t see it. Maliq and Judah were our two best players despite what people think about them. This looks like our typical 18-20 win team right now that ends up declining another NIT. Not enough shooting and the defense got worse.

I am assuming you feel the defense got worse due to Maliq leaving. I get that he received votes for defensive player of the year, but I write that off to the steals he created. Great quick hands, but a real liability in terms of interior defense. Certainly not a rim protector and wasn't great at stopping penetration. Again, the proviso is staying healthy and with all ten contributing I expect improvement on the defensive end, certainly over the last two months. Team gave up over 80 ppg the last couple of months. How much worse can it get? And didn;' lose any three point shooting prowess with the departures. Would love another wing who can shoot 40% from the perimeter, but even absent that we will add Freeman and Moore along with Carlos who shot 34% in limited attempts, Had the roster stayed intact last season it's not unreasonable to say we could have won 22-23 and ended up in the tournament. Just checked. My glass is half full and I do see reasons for a more optimistic outlook.

 

[Mr. M]

Agument is that there will be some improvement in at least some of the five returnees and that Lampkin + Davis + Carlos + Freeman + Moore > Hima + Mintz + Taylor + Copeland + Brown + Carey

You can add Westry in that first group as well

 

[djcon57]

I am assuming you feel the defense got worse due to Maliq leaving. I get that he received votes for defensive player of the year, but I write that off to the steals he created. Great quick hands, but a real liability in terms of interior defense. Certainly not a rim protector and wasn't great at stopping penetration. Again, the proviso is staying healthy and with all ten contributing I expect improvement on the defensive end, certainly over the last two months. Team gave up over 80 ppg the last couple of months. How much worse can it get? And didn;' lose any three point shooting prowess with the departures. Would love another wing who can shoot 40% from the perimeter, but even absent that we will add Freeman and Moore along with Carlos who shot 34% in limited attempts, Had the roster stayed intact last season it's not unreasonable to say we could have won 22-23 and ended up in the tournament. Just checked. My glass is half full and I do see reasons for a more optimistic outlook.

This sort of logic is so bizarre to me. Steals he created or shot clock violations he assisted with due to his pokes or hedging the guards out to where they couldn't shoot. Those matter and add up.

If you have a possession with Lampkin/McLeod and they stop the interior bull rush, but the result of the possession is a wide open 3 due to them not being able to keep up with a PNR, is that better or worst?

I'm not discounting what Lampkin and more specifically McLeod with his shot blocking can do. I just don't think it's "better", its just different. The major difference is offensively with Lampkin.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I am assuming you feel the defense got worse due to Maliq leaving. I get that he received votes for defensive player of the year, but I write that off to the steals he created. Great quick hands, but a real liability in terms of interior defense. Certainly not a rim protector and wasn't great at stopping penetration. Again, the proviso is staying healthy and with all ten contributing I expect improvement on the defensive end, certainly over the last two months. Team gave up over 80 ppg the last couple of months. How much worse can it get? And didn;' lose any three point shooting prowess with the departures. Would love another wing who can shoot 40% from the perimeter, but even absent that we will add Freeman and Moore along with Carlos who shot 34% in limited attempts, Had the roster stayed intact last season it's not unreasonable to say we could have won 22-23 and ended up in the tournament. Just checked. My glass is half full and I do see reasons for a more optimistic outlook.

Shooting was a problem this year. I am not sure it has improved much. I do think we can get worse defensively. Lampkin is an upgrade on rebounding and offense(if he cuts down on the TO's), but yes I think it can get worse defensively. He really struggled in space.

 

[dasher]

I am hoping #1 is accurate. Need better players, IMO, to be where we all want to be.

#2... I think he can run the show and provide a spark. I just don't know if he's a 30 mpg starter at this level. He's smallish, could wear down against more physical teams, and with the length he will see in the ACC at the guard position, I'm not sure if his 34% will be impacted by that.

I agree. I have my doubts.

 

[MikeSU02]

I am assuming you feel the defense got worse due to Maliq leaving. I get that he received votes for defensive player of the year, but I write that off to the steals he created. Great quick hands, but a real liability in terms of interior defense. Certainly not a rim protector and wasn't great at stopping penetration. Again, the proviso is staying healthy and with all ten contributing I expect improvement on the defensive end, certainly over the last two months. Team gave up over 80 ppg the last couple of months. How much worse can it get? And didn;' lose any three point shooting prowess with the departures. Would love another wing who can shoot 40% from the perimeter, but even absent that we will add Freeman and Moore along with Carlos who shot 34% in limited attempts, Had the roster stayed intact last season it's not unreasonable to say we could have won 22-23 and ended up in the tournament. Just checked. My glass is half full and I do see reasons for a more optimistic outlook.

Just because you write off his all defense due to just his steals doesn't mean it's accurate. Those steals, though, do matter.

He had many substantial defensive metrics where he was ranked high in numerous categories within the conference. I've posted them below.

I have no idea why people think the defense will be better. JJ, Bell, PG TBD, a frosh and Lampkin. That's not a recipe for defensive prowess.

DBPM last year:
Lampkin: 0.8
JJ: -0.5
Bell: 0.0
Carlos: 1.1

Maliq: 4.0
Let's have some fun, Kadary: 4.1

Maliq's resume from last year in terms of conference (meaning all the conference players) for defensive rankings:
All-Defense ACC
RPG: 11th
SPG: 1st
BPG: 14th
Def WS: 11th
Def BPM: 5th
Def Rating: 10th
Def Rebound %: 14th
Steal %: 1st
Block %: 14th

The defense is going to be worse and it is very likely that our offense will be more inefficient with this roster.

BTW, to be clear, just losing Maliq is a big deal. The kid went to Duke. Combined with losing the raw talent of Judah (even if he was frustrating and did his own thing a lot), it is very bad. When you are picking up guys from mid major conferences (I know Lampkin is not) as a matter of form, you are in trouble. There are only a few Dalton Knechts and many, many, many more guys that are just average to below average when they level up.

 

[jordoo]

So Brown isn't a good defender if you take away all the things he does well defensively? The lack of perspective it takes to believe this befuddles me.

 

[Orangezoo]

I agree. I have my doubts.

We need another starter at guard. We need Westry to be healthy and effectively with both of those it’s like a team with 7 starters given the value you get from Carlos and Chance. Davis becomes that 8th man, McLeod the defensive option at the 5 and whoever you add as another depth piece in the pivot. Cuffe and Moore are your depth if you need it at guard as one develops and the other is a 3 and D guy.

A lot of what ifs. JJ should be 25 mins a game not 35. He is strong and fast and can heat up. He is better sharing minutes but being aggressive in all aspects doing so. Bell very much the same. I don’t see a player outside of Donnie if he blows up being worth more than 28 mpg next year.

Red preaches versatility so let’s see the ball move, the offense and defense use the skill sets of the kids we have and stack wins and efficiency vs just aggregate stats. If we are going to be much better to me that’s how it’s going to look. No reason individual talent won’t be very obvious in that model either. Plenty of guys are getting to the league with modest per game stats but strong per 40 numbers.

 

[orangecuse]

I agree with your posts in this thread.

If people's arguments are hoping that basically four guys end up being better than they were, we're toast. That's not how things work.

"Hope ain't a tactic!"

And, if it is a thing SU is counting on...well...

 

[dasher]

"Hope ain't a tactic!"

And, if it is a thing SU is counting on...well...

I think they believe they have a pretty good team right now. Is that hope? Or just foolish?

 

[djcon57]

I think they believe they have a pretty good team right now. Is that hope? Or just foolish?

I’d go with wishful thinking or acceptance.

 

[Orangezoo]

Just because you write off his all defense due to just his steals doesn't mean it's accurate. Those steals, though, do matter.

He had many substantial defensive metrics where he was ranked high in numerous categories within the conference. I've posted them below.

I have no idea why people think the defense will be better. JJ, Bell, PG TBD, a frosh and Lampkin. That's not a recipe for defensive prowess.

DBPM last year:
Lampkin: 0.8
JJ: -0.5
Bell: 0.0
Carlos: 1.1

Maliq: 4.0
Let's have some fun, Kadary: 4.1

Maliq's resume from last year in terms of conference (meaning all the conference players) for defensive rankings:
All-Defense ACC
RPG: 11th
SPG: 1st
BPG: 14th
Def WS: 11th
Def BPM: 5th
Def Rating: 10th
Def Rebound %: 14th
Steal %: 1st
Block %: 14th

They defense is going to be worse and it is very likely that our offense will be more inefficient with this roster.

BTW, to be clear, just losing Maliq is a big deal. The kid went to Duke. Combined with losing the raw talent of Judah (even if he was frustrating and did his own thing a lot), it is very bad. When you are picking up guys from mid major conferences (I know Lampkin is not) as a matter of form, you are in trouble. There are only a few Dalton Knechts and many, many, many more guys that are just average to below average when they level up.

Here is a question I’m wondering about- what are his numbers purely as playing the 4 vs the 5? If Duke uses him as a small ball 5 is he as effective and more consequently how does he fair when he is being guarded by another 4 and is only guarding another 4? He feasted on causing problems for bigs when they had to try and make decisions against him away from the basket and is good with his hands when he switches.

As a 4 he will see different screening action than as a 5 defensively and will not have the same matchup advantages. It’s one thing we unfortunately didn’t get to assess for ourselves given our sparse frontcourt with Bennys issues and Naheems injury thus Brown was locked into the 5.

Using him in the short roll as a 4 won’t pull out the opponents big man so how does he fair in those situations. If he is going to blow up, which I’ll be very curious to see, will depend on him being as much of a matchup problem as a 4 as he was a 5 on both ends.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Exactly. Need someone from the guard position at this day and age that can come in and hit shots on a consistent basis. JJ flashed in the middle of the season. Didn't have a great start or finish.

I think Moore will play that role. He’s a sniper and doesn’t lack confidence.

 

[SUFan44]

I think Moore will play that role. He’s a sniper and doesn’t lack confidence.

Freshmen are typically very streaky, and not reliable as shooters. Maybe Moore will buck that trend and be an outlier. I hope so.

But if you look back at any of our prolific shooters in the past and their freshman year wasn't great.

To be a legitimate Top 25 team, we need proven commodities in this day and age of NIL and teams being older. I don't know that we have enough of them at the P5 level to be anything more than a bubble team... again... unless there are 3-4 things that break in a positive way (Freeman being more like a 17-7 guy, Westry remaining healthy, Carlos making the jump in competition and not losing any effectiveness, Starling making a jump to be more consistent, the list goes on).

A lot of questions that will need affirmative answers to be a no-brainer at-large team. I think a few will happen, but it's a lot to ask all of the things to come true that need to with the current roster as constructed. Just my opinion.

 

[hoopsupstate]

I think they believe they have a pretty good team right now. Is that hope? Or just foolish?

I agree. You can only put five guys on the floor at one time. Getting Lampkin is a big deal. Having a post scorer keeps a team from having long scoring droughts if you’re not knocking down threes. It also helps with being able to spread the floor. Good players should recognize where the help in the post is coming from and find the open man. Good movement on the back side can open up all kinds of scoring opportunities. This team, as presently constructed, shows balance and depth. Anyone we get now is gravy.

 

[Orangezoo]

I agree. You can only put five guys on the floor at one time. Getting Lampkin is a big deal. Having a post scorer keeps a team from having long scoring droughts if you’re not knocking down threes. It also helps with being able to spread the floor. Good players should recognize where the help in the post is coming from and find the open man. Good movement on the back side can open up all kinds of scoring opportunities. This team, as presently constructed, shows balance and depth. Anyone we get now is gravy.

We could be based on injury outcomes but adding that key additional piece at guard and depth in the frontcourt to me still is very important

 

[Cusefan0307]

We could be based on injury outcomes but adding that key additional piece at guard and depth in the frontcourt to me still is very important

Agree, and I am sure I'll get scolded by some, but right now I think this is the weakest Syracuse roster of my lifetime. And that's saying something after the past few years.

 

[dasher]

Agree, and I am sure I'll get scolded by some, but right now I think this is the weakest Syracuse roster of my lifetime. And that's saying something after the past few years.

I think we need help but I don't agree with the last part. Having a legit low post scorer is a big thing. Plus,a top 6 recruit at forward.

 

[Orangezoo]

I think we need help but I don't agree with the last part. Having a legit low post scorer is a big thing. Plus,a top 6 recruit at forward.

I think we are better as a whole if Chance and McLeod are full go and the roster has a lot of promise with a legit post scorer. There is just so much unknown and the lingering disappointment of not seeing things pan out that sits in the pit of all of our guts.

I really like Carlos I will say and I think he pairs well with JJ when on the floor together much better than Judah did. I also like that both Lampkin and Freeman should put pressure on teams to be able to defend in the paint and the kid from Delaware should too and is very much a Guerrier type of player.

JJ and Bell on defense and rebounding raise huge question marks as does what can McLeod actually do on that foot to get in shape and then the million dollar question around what will Chance be. So give me another guard who can shoot it alongside Moore and another big who can rebound and defend and isn’t a beanpole even if it’s not a 6-8 guy.

Also I just don’t know what we have in Cuffe too…

 

[orangecuse]

I think they believe they have a pretty good team right now. Is that hope? Or just foolish?

 

[kcsu]

I think that we have a major upgrade at two positions.

Center and forward. Lamp and Freeman

I believe we are better at the 2 position with JJ getting better and Moore.

We are different but possibly better at the 1 with Carlos as he shoots better passes better and defends better.

I have to think that we are better at the 3 because of Bell improving.

If the new forward performs and Chance and McClead are healthy we are better at each position they play.

I believe that Cuffe will be better with another year and the fact that he is healthy.

So based on the above we should be a better team. In addition, we don't have two major head cases anymore.

I would try to add a shooter at the 3 hole and a backup big.

 

[billsin01]

Is fine good enough? Maybe.

If JJ makes an improvement and becomes consistent from deep, if Bell becomes more consistent and adds elements to his game other than being a standstill shooter.

If those two things happen and we have enough firepower around him that can create shots and be complementary, then that's probably all we need. However, I am not convinced this will happen.

Therefore, I still believe we need a starter at the guard position - doesn't matter if it's a combo guard or a point guard. As I said previously, the whole point of getting both Leffew and Carlos (and by all accounts other than the two nincompoops on OrangeNation is that is what the hope was) was to have options in the backcourt. And be a deeper, better team.

As of now, the lineup of:

G - Carlos
G - Starling
F - Bell
F - Freeman
C - Lampkin

Top Reserves - Davis, Westry, Maybe McLeod
Other Reserves - Moore, Cuffe

Is far too reliant on guys who are too inconsistent (Bell), potentially too young (Freeman, Moore), have injury history (Westry, Starling), haven't proven themselves at the highest level (Carlos, Davis), or who just might not be good enough (McLeod, Cuffe).

Lampkin is the only one who has shown he is a legitimate Top 25 starter.

Not disagreeing entirely here but I’m not sure I agree entirely with the way you broke down the players.

You have Bell as ‘inconsistent’ and while this is certainly true of his offense due to his heavy reliance on the three, there aren’t going to be many shooters who don’t have some variability in their game. After a December/early January stretch where he got squeezed on minutes, he score 13/game in our last 18 games. Once he started getting closer to 30+ minutes a game, he averaged 15.7 (our last 10 games). Now, does he do well enough in other aspects of the game to feel good about playing him 30+ mpg, I’m not sure. But he can put the ball in the basket pretty consistently.

Starling’s injury history is very different from Westry’s. Starling is coming off a year where he averaged double-figures and played 1100 minutes. Do I feel excited about him being a go-to guy on either end of the floor? Not exactly, but I’m confident he’ll be available and capable of playing at this level. Westry after two lost seasons with almost no track record at this level? That makes me very nervous. I don’t doubt his talent but I find it hard to believe we can bank on any genuine level of production. His simply being on the floor some would be a pretty big victory.

Freeman being ‘too young’ isn’t the relevant question to me. It’s can he play. We’ve had veteran guys who’ve struggled and freshmen who’ve been very good — Brown, Guerrier, Brissett, Kadary. The question isn’t his age, it’s just whether or not he’ll live up to the hype.

Lastly, Carlos and Davis are question marks at this level but I think the bigger point is simply that it’s hard to imagine us banking on them as leading scorers. If they’re just asked to contribute, it’s all good. As central parts of our offense? Then it gets dicey.

 

[billsin01]

Here is a question I’m wondering about- what are his numbers purely as playing the 4 vs the 5? If Duke uses him as a small ball 5 is he as effective and more consequently how does he fair when he is being guarded by another 4 and is only guarding another 4? He feasted on causing problems for bigs when they had to try and make decisions against him away from the basket and is good with his hands when he switches.

As a 4 he will see different screening action than as a 5 defensively and will not have the same matchup advantages. It’s one thing we unfortunately didn’t get to assess for ourselves given our sparse frontcourt with Bennys issues and Naheems injury thus Brown was locked into the 5.

Using him in the short roll as a 4 won’t pull out the opponents big man so how does he fair in those situations. If he is going to blow up, which I’ll be very curious to see, will depend on him being as much of a matchup problem as a 4 as he was a 5 on both ends.

This is a good point but I’d argue he’s simply a very good basketball player. The fact that he got beat up by some bigs late in the season is only evidence that allowing a big with solid skill all day to maneuver within 6-feet of the basket is poor strategy. It knocked Duke out of the tournament and it hurt UConn until they messed Edey up with some well-timed doubles that hurried him up and got him out of rhythm in the second half.

Your analysis is well-conceived and probably true but I can’t help but think brown will figure out how to carve out a valuable role on a good team.