Are we done with adding players for 2024-25?

[billsin01]

Agree, and I am sure I'll get scolded by some, but right now I think this is the weakest Syracuse roster of my lifetime. And that's saying something after the past few years.

I will reserve judgment but I agree on not being particularly optimistic. Not blown away by the clips I’ve seen of lampkin, think it’s a lot to ask of Moore to be a stud quickly, and I don’t know how we could be counting on anything from Westry at the moment. A ton of offense and play-making to replace from Q and Judah (despite their warts) and big questions defensively on both centers, freeman (just being a freshman), JJ and Bell.

 

[Consigliere]

There is no one on the team that has more talent or is better than Judah or Maliq.

I get the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and I was critical of Judah, but the current roster is not talented enough, period.

You cannot lose that much talent and just hope to god that everyone all of a sudden becomes their best selves because they are wearing a Cuse jersey.

Loved watching Maliq play, but honestly don't see his production as being irreplacable. He had one freak stat for a big - steals. He is an above average rebounder and a strong finisher, but his offensive game was limited and his interior defense (granted playing out of position) was weak. It would be a huge disappointment if Freeman doesn't at least match his contribution, Add in Lampkin and Davis with a returning Bell and I can't imagine the front court won't be greatly improved.

I was not critical of Judah and see him as being the one major loss but will accede to the masses lamenting the lack of a "true point guard." Judah's ability to drive and score at the rim or draw fouls when the offense broke down will be missed. Unless the offense doesn;t break down!

Struggle to see the inability to see that the roster going into 2024-25 is already stronger than the one coming out of 2023-24, but I guess that what makes for good offseason discussions.

Shooting was a problem this year. I am not sure it has improved much. I do think we can get worse defensively. Lampkin is an upgrade on rebounding and offense(if he cuts down on the TO's), but yes I think it can get worse defensively. He really struggled in space.

Well, didn't really lose any three point shooters. And Moore carries a reputation as a lethal perimeter threat. Freeman has show his ability in All Star games and late in the season. Carlos, while not a sniper shot 34%, better than anyone on last year's team (with at least one attempt per game) except Bell.
That's what we averaged the last two months of the season. 79 ppg over the entire conference schedule. Only Louisville was worse.
In both areas, it's like Bob Dylan said. "If you ain't got nothin', you've got nothin' to lose."

I choose to be a glass half full guy. Makes for a much more enjoyable summer.

 

[hoopsupstate]

We won twenty games with a bunch of misfits. We have two legit bigs who can rebound and score. Last year we had hardly any. Those two alone gives us a big leg up on last years team.

 

[CardiacCuse]

It’s safe to say we’re not adding anybody else; if we do, it’ll be a depth/project guy, not a contributor.

JB era is over...would be a bad idea to stand pat from here, imo

you add as much talent as you can and let it sort itself out during the season...you dont decide the rotation in the offseason!

UNC, Duke, etc ...all have 5 star players coming off the bench...that should be the idea

I am out of town and have to listen to Infanti and Scibilia to get my Orange fix.

They are of the opinion that:

1) We won’t add another starting caliber player from the portal.
2) The team will be fine with what we have.

I think this take is incorrect, and if it is correct, we are in trouble.

Unless Westry stays healthy and is the impact guy we need as a lead guard-type player, or Carlos suddenly learns to hit 3’s, I don’t know how this team is going to be the best version of what it could be. Not enough shooting again, and counting on a point guard that has never played at this level.

The whole point of adding both Leffew and Carlos was to have a variety of experienced options. We don’t have that, in my opinion. I do think our center and forward positions are in better shape than they were last year but I am not convinced a PG from Hofstra will be a 30 mpg impact starter on NCAA tournament team in the ACC.

I want more talent added too

im not that worried about the guards...but I do want another starting caliber guard added...there are like 4 backup guards and not many starters on the roster.

not worried about shooting honestly...

starling kinda went out with a whimper last year...which gives me pause...but if you look at his game logs he was in double figures scoring second half of last season...he needs to get better but I think he will...same with bell.

im worried, though,about center and forward

theres only 1 PF on the roster - a freshman...the other "power forward" is only 6'7

there are only 3 players on the whole roster who are taller than 6'8...one of them mcleod just got out of a walking boot...and I dont have faith in him. anyway

what happens if one of the PFs or centers cant play??? frontline gets SUPER thin...and we'r back to last year watching short players trying to cover bigs...

im worried about having not enough tall players on the roster



I get it that you cannot convince a great player to come as a backup normally...

but that said you can get SOMEONE...deciding to stand pat at 12 players instead of 13 would be ridiculous imo...with 2000 players in the portal ...you can fill out any roster...and you should

 

[baggerbob]

I think that we have a major upgrade at two positions.

Center and forward. Lamp and Freeman

I believe we are better at the 2 position with JJ getting better and Moore.

We are different but possibly better at the 1 with Carlos as he shoots better passes better and defends better.

I have to think that we are better at the 3 because of Bell improving.

If the new forward performs and Chance and McClead are healthy we are better at each position they play.

I believe that Cuffe will be better with another year and the fact that he is healthy.

So based on the above we should be a better team. In addition, we don't have two major head cases anymore.

I would try to add a shooter at the 3 hole and a backup big.

A number of our better point guards didn't score a lot.
Sims, Autry his first 3 years, Hart wasn't a scorer. Scoop his Senior year, MCW, but the teams were good.
Because other people moved without the ball. The pass was delivered on time for a good shot.
As long as we can get something out of Chance this year this team has a chance to be good.

 

[Consigliere]

Just because you write off his all defense due to just his steals doesn't mean it's accurate. Those steals, though, do matter.

He had many substantial defensive metrics where he was ranked high in numerous categories within the conference. I've posted them below.

I have no idea why people think the defense will be better. JJ, Bell, PG TBD, a frosh and Lampkin. That's not a recipe for defensive prowess.

DBPM last year:
Lampkin: 0.8
JJ: -0.5
Bell: 0.0
Carlos: 1.1

Maliq: 4.0
Let's have some fun, Kadary: 4.1

Maliq's resume from last year in terms of conference (meaning all the conference players) for defensive rankings:
All-Defense ACC
RPG: 11th
SPG: 1st
BPG: 14th
Def WS: 11th
Def BPM: 5th
Def Rating: 10th
Def Rebound %: 14th
Steal %: 1st
Block %: 14th

The defense is going to be worse and it is very likely that our offense will be more inefficient with this roster.

BTW, to be clear, just losing Maliq is a big deal. The kid went to Duke. Combined with losing the raw talent of Judah (even if he was frustrating and did his own thing a lot), it is very bad. When you are picking up guys from mid major conferences (I know Lampkin is not) as a matter of form, you are in trouble. There are only a few Dalton Knechts and many, many, many more guys that are just average to below average when they level up.

The only defense metric that matters to me is points allowed. we gave up 79 ppg in conference this past season. Only Louisville gave up more. How much worse do you really think it could get?!

 

[Consigliere]

So Brown isn't a good defender if you take away all the things he does well defensively? The lack of perspective it takes to believe this befuddles me.

Not sure if that is directed at me, but Brown is not a good interior defender playing out of position at center. That's what I said.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Mintz was second in the ACC in steals. Does that make him a good defensive player?

 

[CardiacCuse]

The only defense metric that matters to me is points allowed. we gave up 79 ppg in conference this past season. Only Louisville gave up more. How much worse do you really think it could get?!

the defense was so bad last year

the players didnt know how to play in a system...CONSTANT breakdowns and easy buckets given up

took them 4 months to figure out how to play offense together...adn even then they could only manage to do it for 1 half every game...

teamwork trumps talent, most of the time

yeah they lost "talent"...but this roster is A LOT better already...

that said, yeah I want more talent added

 

[NineOneSeven]

I am hopeful of the experience factor we have with the players added. That definitely plays a role.

 

[djcon57]

The only defense metric that matters to me is points allowed. we gave up 79 ppg in conference this past season. Only Louisville gave up more. How much worse do you really think it could get?!

So the only defensive metric that matters to you totally ignores pace of the game?

Interesting.

For context...

The 20-21 team with Buddy, Joe, among others gave up 70.1 a game
The 02-03 Championship team gave up 69.6 a game

Anyone think they are similar?

 

[djcon57]

Mintz was second in the ACC in steals. Does that make him a good defensive player?

Nope, which is why you look at other metrics like Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Stl %, etc. in conjunction with the standard metrics like steals per game...in addition to eye test, what other players/coaches say...to make an educated opinion on a player.

Hence, why I feel comfortable suggesting Maliq Brown is a great defensive player.

 

[billsin01]

The only defense metric that matters to me is points allowed. we gave up 79 ppg in conference this past season. Only Louisville gave up more. How much worse do you really think it could get?!

This is a fair point. Our pace increased so that accounts for some of it but how we get significantly worse is a fair question.

 

[Consigliere]

So the only defensive metric that matters to you totally ignores pace of the game?

Interesting.

For context...

The 20-21 team with Buddy, Joe, among others gave up 70.1 a game
The 02-03 Championship team gave up 69.6 a game

Anyone think they are similar?

You're right. I fully expect Red to backtrack and play a slower pace next season and go against everything he has preached since getting the job.
Never mind. I'm done. Let's circle back nect March and see what transpires. But if we score more than the other guys I think we'll be okay.

 

[djcon57]

You're right. I fully expect Red to backtrack and play a slower pace next season and go against everything he has preached since getting the job.
Never mind. I'm done. Let's circle back nect March and see what transpires. But if we score more than the other guys I think we'll be okay.

You're the one that said "The only defense metric that matters to me is points allowed".

I think that's an ignorant comment. I hope Red continues to push pace and not be concerned with points allowed at some sort of marker to show if we're playing good or bad D.

 

[CardiacCuse]

I am hopeful of the experience factor we have with the players added. That definitely plays a role.

me too

both lampkin and davis have had big games in the tournament...there really arent that many players like that out there to pickup

 

[billsin01]

Loved watching Maliq play, but honestly don't see his production as being irreplacable. He had one freak stat for a big - steals. He is an above average rebounder and a strong finisher, but his offensive game was limited and his interior defense (granted playing out of position) was weak. It would be a huge disappointment if Freeman doesn't at least match his contribution, Add in Lampkin and Davis with a returning Bell and I can't imagine the front court won't be greatly improved.

I was not critical of Judah and see him as being the one major loss but will accede to the masses lamenting the lack of a "true point guard." Judah's ability to drive and score at the rim or draw fouls when the offense broke down will be missed. Unless the offense doesn;t break down!

Struggle to see the inability to see that the roster going into 2024-25 is already stronger than the one coming out of 2023-24, but I guess that what makes for good offseason discussions.

Well, didn't really lose any three point shooters. And Moore carries a reputation as a lethal perimeter threat. Freeman has show his ability in All Star games and late in the season. Carlos, while not a sniper shot 34%, better than anyone on last year's team (with at least one attempt per game) except Bell.
That's what we averaged the last two months of the season. 79 ppg over the entire conference schedule. Only Louisville was worse.
In both areas, it's like Bob Dylan said. "If you ain't got nothin', you've got nothin' to lose."

I choose to be a glass half full guy. Makes for a much more enjoyable summer.

I appreciate the optimism but you can’t appreciate Brown’s game as simply ‘steals, a couple buckets and some rebounds.’ He was a solid help defender, became an excellent defender vs the high ball screen and was an offensive facilitator off the short role. Additionally, it’s what he didn’t do — stop the ball, over-dribble, turn the ball over, take bad shots. I mean, if we’re being on honest, he rarely took a shot he missed.

He is a major loss. Could we collectively be better in the front court? Yeah, I think there’s a chance. But he and Judah and q (again, not just numbers, energy, swag, movement, etc) are going to be a bear to replace.

 

[billsin01]

You're the one that said "The only defense metric that matters to me is points allowed".

I think that's an ignorant comment. I hope Red continues to push pace and not be concerned with points allowed at some sort of marker to show if we're playing good or bad D.

Agree on the pace point but also agree we need to be more effective defensively. We were atrocious as a team defensively this past season regardless of pace. The second Clemson game was incredible. They put up 90 without really a ton of fast break points. Just got the shots they wanted on like 90% of their possessions.

Comparing personnel is interesting but we need a better approach defensively as well. Hope the new assistant helps with that or Red comes with some new ideas. Have to be better there.

 

[djcon57]

Agree on the pace point but also agree we need to be more effective defensively. We were atrocious as a team defensively this past season regardless of pace. The second Clemson game was incredible. They put up 90 without really a ton of fast break points. Just got the shots they wanted on like 90% of their possessions.

Comparing personnel is interesting but we need a better approach defensively as well. Hope the new assistant helps with that or Red comes with some new ideas. Have to be better there.

Yeah, I don't think we were good at all especially toward the end of the season when it looked like Maliq was running out of gas and certain players basically stopped caring.

I did think when we had depth that we were about to play with less worry of foul trouble and seemed more aggressive. So I do wonder if Red kind of did the best he could with what he had OR as you said it was more his approach.

 

[Jake]

There is no one on the team that has more talent or is better than Judah or Maliq.

I get the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and I was critical of Judah, but the current roster is not talented enough, period.

You cannot lose that much talent and just hope to god that everyone all of a sudden becomes their best selves because they are wearing a Cuse jersey.

Judah and Copeland were probably the most skilled. Unfortunately, they were also the most uncoachable. So while you can say it’s hard to replace talent, you can make it up in other ways.

If you could get 100% out of their abilities, they would be tough to replace, but given their net total…not all that hard to replace.

 

[Jake]

The only defense metric that matters to me is points allowed. we gave up 79 ppg in conference this past season. Only Louisville gave up more. How much worse do you really think it could get?!

A - freaking -men.

 

[CardiacCuse]

I appreciate the optimism but you can’t appreciate Brown’s game as simply ‘steals, a couple buckets and some rebounds.’ He was a solid help defender, became an excellent defender vs the high ball screen and was an offensive facilitator off the short role. Additionally, it’s what he didn’t do — stop the ball, over-dribble, turn the ball over, take bad shots. I mean, if we’re being on honest, he rarely took a shot he missed.

He is a major loss. Could we collectively be better in the front court? Yeah, I think there’s a chance. But he and Judah and q (again, not just numbers, energy, swag, movement, etc) are going to be a bear to replace.

eh

you couldnt pass the ball to brown in the post and get bucket...he scored when he was already open. did he ever do a post move? did he ever score 1 on 1 face up? off the dribble?

did he ever shoot a jump shot? a 10 footer? very occasionally

i mean these are all PRIME methods of scoring for a big ...and brown did none of them!


most of his points he dunked or shot an occasional wide open 3

you couldnt run the offense through him but he did get the occasional assist...he was no facilitator...lets stop the exaggeration...

he was part of the reason the offense was iso based...limited with what he could do with the ball...very easy to guard for a team with good bigs. he didnt stop the ball because he couldnt do much with it when he got it. it wasnt some decision he made. he wisely knew this but that understanding of his own limitation is not soemthig to sing about.

he didnt take shots ...he didnt assert himself...i think he couldve done more but he deferred. very passive on offense ...which was a liability not an asset.

the offense will be so much better without the ball stoppers. just wait.

 

[Jake]

Nope, which is why you look at other metrics like Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Stl %, etc. in conjunction with the standard metrics like steals per game...in addition to eye test, what other players/coaches say...to make an educated opinion on a player.

Hence, why I feel comfortable suggesting Maliq Brown is a great defensive player.

That’s fair. But even those stats are flawed…they may be the best we have, but they are only a singular data point. I’m all on board w/using defensive stats to add to your defensive analysis. As you say, eye test, old school scouting/tape review, etc is just as important if not more.

What makes me crazy is people using stats as a singular basis of assessment.

It’s nonsensical.

Greg Monroe & Matt Roe are the all time best 3 point shooters by percentage in school history. Anyone going to put them in the all time top 10 shooters?

Both are 7% better shooters than Buddy. Buddy was asked to force shots and take lower pct shots and be the focal point of the offense and was always drawing the best defenders.

Greg and Matt were option 4 at best in their teams.

Do defensive stats take into consideration how many times the defender is drawing the better offensive player?!?! I honestly don’t know.

If I’m drawing the weaker player every night…because my backcourt mate is the better defender doesn’t that skew the stats. I’m guarding James Thues and youre checking Deshaun Williams.

 

[djcon57]

Do defensive stats take into consideration how many times the defender is drawing the better offensive player?!?! I honestly don’t know.

Depends on the stat. If you look at NBA metrics, the players that always guard the best guys, tend to be at the top of the lists. It's not coincidence.

 

[jordoo]

Not sure if that is directed at me, but Brown is not a good interior defender playing out of position at center. That's what I said.

I think he’s a great defender outside of 8’ and at least adequate inside 8’ on most forwards. I don’t disagree that he couldn’t handle the bigger stronger post guys in close. I honestly can’t remember which post or posts triggered what you quoted. I read a bunch of posts and felt like one or two of them was saying minus his steals and deflections he’s not a good defender.