As simple as talent?

[13mike13]

I've been reading all the recent posts hypothesizing that this year's series of close defeats are attributable to the coaching staff/coaching philosophy/etc. While I am certainly critical of some of the coaching decisions (especially some in-game decisions), isn't success on a football field more than anything about talent? Put another way, I'm a firm believer that especially in the game of football, depth of talent or superior talent will, over time, tend to eliminate the effect of many mistakes--especially turnovers. Four years ago, we were arguably the worst BCS conference program in the country. Robinson, while a good man, drove this program into the depths. I am personally amazed with many of the wins this program has enjoyed with clearly inferior talent over the last couple of years (N'Western three years ago, West Virginia on the road a few years ago, at Rutgers two years ago, WVA last year all come to immediately mind). My belief is that this is a process and it takes time--especially when we recall where we were as a program when Doug walked onto campus. Most of the mistakes our kids make are a by-product of our kids trying like hell to overcome a talent deficit...and the effect of those mistakes on winning or losing are magnified because the talent deficit makes the margin of error for this team still razor thin. It's not there yet, but it is difficult to argue that top to bottom our program (and the depth of talented football players) is better off now than it was four years ago. I sat first row behind the SU bench the year Doug took over, and the size/speed/talent deficits of the kids in our program was shocking. Today, our kids look more like football players and, at times, play like it. I think we all need to pump the brakes on the reactionary rhetoric, let these competent men do their job, have a little bit of faith in what they are trying to accomplish, and see where this thing shakes out in a year or two.

 

[GoSU96]

I've been reading all the recent posts hypothesizing that this year's series of close defeats are attributable to the coaching staff/coaching philosophy/etc. While I am certainly critical of some of the coaching decisions (especially some in-game decisions), isn't success on a football field more than anything about talent? Put another way, I'm a firm believer that especially in the game of football, depth of talent or superior talent will, over time, tend to eliminate the effect of many mistakes--especially turnovers. Four years ago, we were arguably the worst BCS conference program in the country. Robinson, while a good man, drove this program into the depths. I am personally amazed with many of the wins this program has enjoyed with clearly inferior talent over the last couple of years (N'Western three years ago, West Virginia on the road a few years ago, at Rutgers two years ago, WVA last year all come to immediately mind). My belief is that this is a process and it takes time--especially when we recall where we were as a program when Doug walked onto campus. Most of the mistakes our kids make are a by-product of our kids trying like hell to overcome a talent deficit...and the effect of those mistakes on winning or losing are magnified because the talent deficit makes the margin of error for this team still razor thin. It's not there yet, but it is difficult to argue that top to bottom our program (and the depth of talented football players) is better off now than it was four years ago. I sat first row behind the SU bench the year Doug took over, and the size/speed/talent deficits of the kids in our program was shocking. Today, our kids look more like football players and, at times, play like it. I think we all need to pump the brakes on the reactionary rhetoric, let these competent men do their job, have a little bit of faith in what they are trying to accomplish, and see where this thing shakes out in a year or two.

Well said.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I sit behind the bench as well and echo your sentiment with regard to the progress that has been made on the S&C side, said that at the USC game as well. I certainly understand the frustration and people can say what they want but there has been progress and I am in favor of keeping Doug around because I think we still have some games to win this year. I know you have to measure in wins and I can understand people calling for marrone's head, I just don't agree with them because I still think Doug can turn this around. I don't like people dealing in absolutes as if a 3rd down and 12 run call during a 7-7 game where a field goal is a big deal somehow shows that Marrone is clueless or isn't playing to win. That to me is ridiculous and really just BS. . I also know there are still a lot of people that count who are still behind Doug, remember people the season is not over yet either. Like I said, it's been a brutal 10 years

 

[Cuseregular]

I've been reading all the recent posts hypothesizing that this year's series of close defeats are attributable to the coaching staff/coaching philosophy/etc. While I am certainly critical of some of the coaching decisions (especially some in-game decisions), isn't success on a football field more than anything about talent? Put another way, I'm a firm believer that especially in the game of football, depth of talent or superior talent will, over time, tend to eliminate the effect of many mistakes--especially turnovers. Four years ago, we were arguably the worst BCS conference program in the country. Robinson, while a good man, drove this program into the depths. I am personally amazed with many of the wins this program has enjoyed with clearly inferior talent over the last couple of years (N'Western three years ago, West Virginia on the road a few years ago, at Rutgers two years ago, WVA last year all come to immediately mind). My belief is that this is a process and it takes time--especially when we recall where we were as a program when Doug walked onto campus. Most of the mistakes our kids make are a by-product of our kids trying like hell to overcome a talent deficit...and the effect of those mistakes on winning or losing are magnified because the talent deficit makes the margin of error for this team still razor thin. It's not there yet, but it is difficult to argue that top to bottom our program (and the depth of talented football players) is better off now than it was four years ago. I sat first row behind the SU bench the year Doug took over, and the size/speed/talent deficits of the kids in our program was shocking. Today, our kids look more like football players and, at times, play like it. I think we all need to pump the brakes on the reactionary rhetoric, let these competent men do their job, have a little bit of faith in what they are trying to accomplish, and see where this thing shakes out in a year or two.

Can't argue with most of those good points. The crux of the issue is as you point out. They way to get around it is make the tough decision of changing up the player(s) that are making the mistakes. Lets not dance around it, its the qb position where mistakes are magnified in importance and make the difference in W's vs. L's often times as with what's occured here.

How long has this been going on? 2 maybe 3 years. Back then there wasnt alternatives now there is. They should go to that route with the potential upside involved. What's the downside? Losing more close games than winning close games? That's what's happening now. What's the difference. Some might counter that the games won't be close without #12, I'm here to tell ya no that wouldn't be true as the talent level is sufficient to be competitive.

 

[Cusee44]

I fully agree that we have better players overall. It must kill Marrone to see all these mistakes but it's part of being a head coach when you get the burn with each loss and the praise with each win. He has to do something to cut down the TOs and it is ultimately on him, regardless of whether or not our current players are faster/stronger/etc.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Can't argue with most of those good points. The crux of the issue is as you point out. They way to get around it is make the tough decision of changing up the player(s) that are making the mistakes. Lets not dance around it, its the qb position where mistakes are magnified in importance and make the difference in W's vs. L's often times as with what's occured here.

How long has this been going on? 2 maybe 3 years. Back then there wasnt alternatives now there is. They should go to that route with the potential upside involved. What's the downside? Losing more close games than winning close games? That's what's happening now. What's the difference. Some might counter that the games won't be close without #12, I'm here to tell ya no that wouldn't be true as the talent level is sufficient to be competitive.

I would agree that Marrone has failed in not recruiting a better qb at this point. Nassib is not good no matter how people try to spin it, he just isn't. No feel, turns it over, lacks touch. I would agree with anyone there. I understand he has more passing records, etc etc, well different scheme, different game than 25 years ago, how many more INT's fumbles, attempts, etc etc

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I don't like people dealing in absolutes as if a 3rd down and 12 run call during a 7-7 game where a field goal is a big deal somehow shows that Marrone is clueless or isn't playing to win.

Look, it's not that one call. It's the accumulation of stuff like that.

 

[Rocco]

I would agree that Marrone has failed in not recruiting a better qb at this point. Nassib is not good no matter how people try to spin it, he just isn't. No feel, turns it over, lacks touch. I would agree with anyone there. I understand he has more passing records, etc etc, well different scheme, different game than 25 years ago, how many more INT's fumbles, attempts, etc etc

I agree with you 100% on Ryan. I will say that these 2 kids coming in next year have the molding to be very good. Quick feet, very good arms and what looks to be good football acumen (especially ZA hailing from TX). I really hope that one of them pan out, but they will also be true freshmen next year. Expectations need to be tempered. It sounds like they are both enrolling in January which will be gigantic for their development. Hack handpicked both of them.

It is unfortunate that DM and staff haven't been able to land a dual-threat QB that is ideal for this system yet. Jury is still out on Terrell Hunt. He really hurt himself getting suspended in the spring which cost him valuable practice time. He certainly passes the look test, but no idea what to think of him beyond that.

I do not think you will ever see AB taking snaps besides in the wildcat. Just my opinion.

 

[Cuseregular]

I would agree that Marrone has failed in not recruiting a better qb at this point. Nassib is not good no matter how people try to spin it, he just isn't. No feel, turns it over, lacks touch. I would agree with anyone there. I understand he has more passing records, etc etc, well different scheme, different game than 25 years ago, how many more INT's fumbles, attempts, etc etc

Here's the thing. We don't really know if he hasn't recruited a better college qb. Emphasize college. I'll agree he hasn't recruited a better thrower and passer but I don't believe theres' not a better performer and athlete in the bunch that would be an improved qb over what's being accomplished at that position now.

You've always said it with Sales and I agree having seen it often firsthand, there's always gamer players. I have no doubt that one of the qbs in the fold now could do just as good/bad with respect to results. I have little faith in them to see that as they are so rigid and constrained in their eval. process that if the other guys are not head and tails better in practice they won't have a chance.

I played with both these type guys. Sure steady good kidndecent athlete type that was good in practice and then sub par in games as to results. Others who look just ok throwing overall in practice but athletic as hell and on occassion did some truly amazing things. The latter always seemed to outperform the former in terms of results (W-L's) even if the stats for the latter were'nt as good as the former.

The mentality of the av. football coach unfortunately doesn't allow them to get outside of the box in their thinking and they will base decisions only of the nuts and bolts stats and the like, and not be able to divert from their preordained thoughts, thinking or game plans. Same with player eval. Ours are like this and I don't foresee any changes from them up to and even when we have 7 losses.

As a result of this mindset it's their loss, the teams losses and our pain in watching as fans. I'm going to be ok with them keeping him another year but given what's I've seen and are seeing I don't expect much change overall beyond simply being competitive and losing games we should win more so than the reverse because of the mindset described above (not changing the qb now, not going for it on 4th down 2x at USC, not having the Tank formation in for Mn to ram it in, etc., etc...).

Do these things guarentee wins? Of course not, but they may put you in a better position ultimately to win. I wish I were more optomistic that he could help himself more. I'm not, unfortunately.

 

[Cuseregular]

I do not think you will ever see AB taking snaps besides in the wildcat. Just my opinion.[/quote]
Hey Rocco let me pick your brain for a bit if you'd be kind enough to indulge me for a bit.

How did you form that opinion? Is that because of personal eval. and feeling and maybe seeing practices, or based on what you're hearing from them or someone up there? As many know now I've seen and evaluated this kid up close and personal and as someone who used to do some recruiting and still stays connected to coaches in div. 1 and up who feel otherwise on AB, I'm curious to how the growing opinions are that he can't cut it as a div. 1 qb.

Not capable of handling the complexities of college ball, can't throw the outs or fades, or with accuracy? If you don't mind please share how you come to the conclusion that he won't take snaps beyond the wildcat. Not being arguementative as I truly would like to hear from those who think he can't cut it whats it's based on. Thanks in advance.

 

[tipphill]

I sit behind the bench as well and echo your sentiment with regard to the progress that has been made on the S&C side, said that at the USC game as well. I certainly understand the frustration and people can say what they want but there has been progress and I am in favor of keeping Doug around because I think we still have some games to win this year. I know you have to measure in wins and I can understand people calling for marrone's head, I just don't agree with them because I still think Doug can turn this around. I don't like people dealing in absolutes as if a 3rd down and 12 run call during a 7-7 game where a field goal is a big deal somehow shows that Marrone is clueless or isn't playing to win. That to me is ridiculous and really just BS. . I also know there are still a lot of people that count who are still behind Doug, remember people the season is not over yet either. Like I said, it's been a brutal 10 years

i am not one for calling for his head---and i also believe that the majority of those criticizing him are not calling for his head either. i am calling for him to think out of the box and get off too much of the statistical analysis and be more creative.another poster said it well in that he has not attained a true feel for the game ---but rather plays the statistical probability, thus negating anything creative or out of the ordinary.almost always plays it safe, or if he doesn't, the play call is usually predictable. stats are stats are stats ---the only tale they tell is that despite them we cannot win games ---bottom line. what changes here??we cannot even rely on krautman anymore

 

[orlandoorange]

I've been reading all the recent posts hypothesizing that this year's series of close defeats are attributable to the coaching staff/coaching philosophy/etc. While I am certainly critical of some of the coaching decisions (especially some in-game decisions), isn't success on a football field more than anything about talent? Put another way, I'm a firm believer that especially in the game of football, depth of talent or superior talent will, over time, tend to eliminate the effect of many mistakes--especially turnovers. Four years ago, we were arguably the worst BCS conference program in the country. Robinson, while a good man, drove this program into the depths. I am personally amazed with many of the wins this program has enjoyed with clearly inferior talent over the last couple of years (N'Western three years ago, West Virginia on the road a few years ago, at Rutgers two years ago, WVA last year all come to immediately mind). My belief is that this is a process and it takes time--especially when we recall where we were as a program when Doug walked onto campus. Most of the mistakes our kids make are a by-product of our kids trying like hell to overcome a talent deficit...and the effect of those mistakes on winning or losing are magnified because the talent deficit makes the margin of error for this team still razor thin. It's not there yet, but it is difficult to argue that top to bottom our program (and the depth of talented football players) is better off now than it was four years ago. I sat first row behind the SU bench the year Doug took over, and the size/speed/talent deficits of the kids in our program was shocking. Today, our kids look more like football players and, at times, play like it. I think we all need to pump the brakes on the reactionary rhetoric, let these competent men do their job, have a little bit of faith in what they are trying to accomplish, and see where this thing shakes out in a year or two.

good points but if u look at it another way, when Marrone came here we were one year away from getting to a bowl game, with Grobs kids. Now, unless something happens and the season dramatically turns around, can anyone honestly say it looks like we are 1 year away from another bowl game? Especially given that we will have a first year qb next year and an 8 game ACC schedule?

 

[OrangePA]

I've been reading all the recent posts hypothesizing that this year's series of close defeats are attributable to the coaching staff/coaching philosophy/etc. While I am certainly critical of some of the coaching decisions (especially some in-game decisions), isn't success on a football field more than anything about talent? Put another way, I'm a firm believer that especially in the game of football, depth of talent or superior talent will, over time, tend to eliminate the effect of many mistakes--especially turnovers. Four years ago, we were arguably the worst BCS conference program in the country. Robinson, while a good man, drove this program into the depths. I am personally amazed with many of the wins this program has enjoyed with clearly inferior talent over the last couple of years (N'Western three years ago, West Virginia on the road a few years ago, at Rutgers two years ago, WVA last year all come to immediately mind). My belief is that this is a process and it takes time--especially when we recall where we were as a program when Doug walked onto campus. Most of the mistakes our kids make are a by-product of our kids trying like hell to overcome a talent deficit...and the effect of those mistakes on winning or losing are magnified because the talent deficit makes the margin of error for this team still razor thin. It's not there yet, but it is difficult to argue that top to bottom our program (and the depth of talented football players) is better off now than it was four years ago. I sat first row behind the SU bench the year Doug took over, and the size/speed/talent deficits of the kids in our program was shocking. Today, our kids look more like football players and, at times, play like it. I think we all need to pump the brakes on the reactionary rhetoric, let these competent men do their job, have a little bit of faith in what they are trying to accomplish, and see where this thing shakes out in a year or two.

Nooooooo.

It's about all of those awful play calls that we have seen all year.

And Marrone's obvious inability to make mental adjustments during games - can't you see that??

 

[SoBristol]

No, it's not "as simple as talent" -- in the sense that we need another 2 or 3 or whatever years to attract talent so we can compete with teams like RU, NW or UConn.

Nothing is simple. The defense looks much improved (Shafer). Marrone has improved the team in some areas, and used JUCO recruiting to fill gaps -- yet he still depends on Nassib, Lemon & Sales (all GROB recruits) as the main components of his offense. Look at Maryland in Edsall's second year -- frosh and sophs are having a big impact on the offense, and that team will clearly be better next year.

Look at specials. Better in some areas (KOs and punting); shaky in others (punt returns, punt blocks, FG protection). Nothing creative.

Look at red zone offense. We get exposed. Our coaches sometimes appear confused and indecisive. Maybe we lack weapons (and a strong OL), but it makes you wonder.

I am pulling like crazy for Marrone. Good guy. I hope we start this Friday and wins several games. But he isn't making it simple.

 

[GoSU96]

Nooooooo.

It's about all of those awful play calls that we have seen all year.

And Marrone's obvious inability to make mental adjustments during games - can't you see that??

Reminder, sarcasm is hard to pick up at times.

 

[bothsocksup]

Here's the thing. We don't really know if he hasn't recruited a better college qb. Emphasize college. I'll agree he hasn't recruited a better thrower and passer but I don't believe theres' not a better performer and athlete in the bunch that would be an improved qb over what's being accomplished at that position now.

You've always said it with Sales and I agree having seen it often firsthand, there's always gamer players. I have no doubt that one of the qbs in the fold now could do just as good/bad with respect to results. I have little faith in them to see that as they are so rigid and constrained in their eval. process that if the other guys are not head and tails better in practice they won't have a chance.

I played with both these type guys. Sure steady good kidndecent athlete type that was good in practice and then sub par in games as to results. Others who look just ok throwing overall in practice but athletic as hell and on occassion did some truly amazing things. The latter always seemed to outperform the former in terms of results (W-L's) even if the stats for the latter were'nt as good as the former.

The mentality of the av. football coach unfortunately doesn't allow them to get outside of the box in their thinking and they will base decisions only of the nuts and bolts stats and the like, and not be able to divert from their preordained thoughts, thinking or game plans. Same with player eval. Ours are like this and I don't foresee any changes from them up to and even when we have 7 losses.

As a result of this mindset it's their loss, the teams losses and our pain in watching as fans. I'm going to be ok with them keeping him another year but given what's I've seen and are seeing I don't expect much change overall beyond simply being competitive and losing games we should win more so than the reverse because of the mindset described above (not changing the qb now, not going for it on 4th down 2x at USC, not having the Tank formation in for Mn to ram it in, etc., etc...).

Do these things guarentee wins? Of course not, but they may put you in a better position ultimately to win. I wish I were more optomistic that he could help himself more. I'm not, unfortunately.

are you saying marrone shouldnt pay attention to practice as a indicator of ones capability in a game

 

[syr02esq]

I've been reading all the recent posts hypothesizing that this year's series of close defeats are attributable to the coaching staff/coaching philosophy/etc. While I am certainly critical of some of the coaching decisions (especially some in-game decisions), isn't success on a football field more than anything about talent? Put another way, I'm a firm believer that especially in the game of football, depth of talent or superior talent will, over time, tend to eliminate the effect of many mistakes--especially turnovers. Four years ago, we were arguably the worst BCS conference program in the country. Robinson, while a good man, drove this program into the depths. I am personally amazed with many of the wins this program has enjoyed with clearly inferior talent over the last couple of years (N'Western three years ago, West Virginia on the road a few years ago, at Rutgers two years ago, WVA last year all come to immediately mind). My belief is that this is a process and it takes time--especially when we recall where we were as a program when Doug walked onto campus. Most of the mistakes our kids make are a by-product of our kids trying like hell to overcome a talent deficit...and the effect of those mistakes on winning or losing are magnified because the talent deficit makes the margin of error for this team still razor thin. It's not there yet, but it is difficult to argue that top to bottom our program (and the depth of talented football players) is better off now than it was four years ago. I sat first row behind the SU bench the year Doug took over, and the size/speed/talent deficits of the kids in our program was shocking. Today, our kids look more like football players and, at times, play like it. I think we all need to pump the brakes on the reactionary rhetoric, let these competent men do their job, have a little bit of faith in what they are trying to accomplish, and see where this thing shakes out in a year or two.

Love this post.

 

[Chip]

Did I dream what happened in 2010? When I read posts like this, I think it couldn't have really happened. The more I watch Kansas State this year, the more I think I was just drinking even more than normal that year. Worth it though.

The talent mismatch discussions always make me think that people watch our game at noon, then turn on an Alabama game at 3:30 and think "we have no talent!" We only have to be as talented as those on our schedule, and they aren't all that talented.

Cincy didn't look like they belonged on the same field as us in 2010, but in 2011 people said it was the other way around. How is that possible?


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[Cuseregular]

are you saying marrone shouldnt pay attention to practice as a indicator of ones capability in a game

yeah that's what I'm saying. Like Iverson said, "practice"...

 

[rrlbees]

I know you have to measure in wins and I can understand people calling for marrone's head, I just don't agree with them because I still think Doug can turn this around.

What has happened since the end of last season to change your opinion?

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[rrlbees]

Lots of bull being tossed about in this thread. Sure Grob was a bad HC that didn't win. But this notion that the program was in some deep abyss and impossible to save is bunk. If it was, how did Marrone go 8-5 in just the 2nd year? If you say it was a miraculous coaching job then what has happened the last 2 years? 1-9 in the last 10 BCS games ia GRobish.

And what has happened with the opinion of Nassib? Two years ago many described him as a good game manager who was tough and smart. 3 years ago he'd come in for Paulus to stretch the field some. Now he can't go deep. What changed? We gave the same 2 top receivers as we had 2 years ago. What happened?

Some claim Nassib is not a good QB. Define good. Look at every measurable stat. Except for INT"s he is top 50% in the country in everything and much higher in some. And 3 of his 8 INT's bounced off receivers. How often does that really happen. His one weakness in relation to other QB's is fumbles. But that alone doesn't make him a bad QB.

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