Bad Season

[SmilinBob]

I can understand what OPA is saying and some of the foolish mistakes like lining up offsides or the jumping offsides in the RZ are frustrating as heck and HAVE to be fixed. What drives me crazy is it's 2nd and 7...jump offsides now it's 2nd and 12 and then get a 8 yard gain then an incomplete pass or stuffed on a run and then have to punt. How Shafer and his staff fix this stuff is up to them but fix it because this team just does not have the room for errors like this.

 

[OrangePA]

plenty of coaches can and do instill discipline regardless of facial hair. See popovichs Spurs for example. That said there is something to be said for discipline and accountability and most great teams have that in spades. It just doesn't have anything to do with hair. Curfews, showing up on time, speaking well, not being a cancer are all relevant

Again, I think many are viewing the observation too literally.

Obviously, I can't try to compare the Syracuse University Football team to the San Antonio Spurs, with Tim Duncan et al or the Oakland As - with Reggie Jackson, Catfish Hunter, et al.

And, as I have said, I can't try to compare our team to Oregon or Alabama.

I believe, however, that our team has more talent up and down the roster than we have had in probably 15 years. We are bigger, faster and more athletic than we were under Marrone.

And yet, I believe now what I believed after the Villanova game - we are not ready to compete.

For all of those who are trying pick apart the original observation with comments like "we are not playing a Big East schedule" or "what about off field incidents" or "hair length does not cause offside calls," remember - this is a team that will likely win 3 or maybe 4 games this year. This is a team that was beaten up by a really mediocre NC State team. This is a team that was dominated by a lower division Villanova team - they had the ball for 40 minutes.

And, this is a team that the HC thought could/should win eight games this year.

Obviously there is no direct link between beards/long hair and offside calls or delay of game penalties or missed blocks.

I understand that.

But that's not the point.

The point is that with a program of our caliber forcing players to honor a protocol is a part of the process of preparing for success.

Again, for the umpteenth time, John Wooden insisting that Bill Walton cut his hair didn't make him a better player. But, it gave him a sense of responsibility and a sense of team that I'm sure had a positive impact. Walton tells the story with relish because it meant something to him.

Kids want discipline. Kids want rules. Kids want to tell their friends how tough their coach is.

And, as long as the coach is fair, is smart, and helps them improve, kids will thrive with the rules of protocol.

I'm not calling for a return to the 1950s.

I'm calling for a return to 2009, with strict attention to protocol and detail.

 

[OrangePA]

Are you familiar with the ignore feature?

This is funny.

Stern actually likes the idea that because he hates the program and the University, he should be ignored.

Excellent.

It would be easier though if he would simply go to a board for a team he likes.

 

[OrangePA]

Not relevant? So, you don't care if the discipline you want to instill doesn't carry over to off-the-field behavior? Honest question.

Oh come on.

Yes, I would like to see team protocol help kids function effectively in real life situations.

It is hard for me to comment on off field situations because I don't know the facts of those situations or the personalities or individual issues of the particular player.

Hey, you've tried to pick apart my observation because you don't agree with it.

My experience with the program and with my own situation tells me I'm right.

And you and a few others here don't agree. I get it.

If we were at six or seven wins we aren't having this discussion.

 

[Scooch]

I can't believe a thread like this exists on a site that also houses a forum about Syracuse basketball.

Second winningest coach of all time.

How're all those rules about personal grooming doing there.

Oy.

 

[orange79]

Again, I think many are viewing the observation too literally.

Obviously, I can't try to compare the Syracuse University Football team to the San Antonio Spurs, with Tim Duncan et al or the Oakland As - with Reggie Jackson, Catfish Hunter, et al.

And, as I have said, I can't try to compare our team to Oregon or Alabama.

I believe, however, that our team has more talent up and down the roster than we have had in probably 15 years. We are bigger, faster and more athletic than we were under Marrone.

And yet, I believe now what I believed after the Villanova game - we are not ready to compete.

For all of those who are trying pick apart the original observation with comments like "we are not playing a Big East schedule" or "what about off field incidents" or "hair length does not cause offside calls," remember - this is a team that will likely win 3 or maybe 4 games this year. This is a team that was beaten up by a really mediocre NC State team. This is a team that was dominated by a lower division Villanova team - they had the ball for 40 minutes.

And, this is a team that the HC thought could/should win eight games this year.

Obviously there is no direct link between beards/long hair and offside calls or delay of game penalties or missed blocks.

I understand that.

But that's not the point.

The point is that with a program of our caliber forcing players to honor a protocol is a part of the process of preparing for success.

Again, for the umpteenth time, John Wooden insisting that Bill Walton cut his hair didn't make him a better player. But, it gave him a sense of responsibility and a sense of team that I'm sure had a positive impact. Walton tells the story with relish because it meant something to him.

Kids want discipline. Kids want rules. Kids want to tell their friends how tough their coach is.

And, as long as the coach is fair, is smart, and helps them improve, kids will thrive with the rules of protocol.

I'm not calling for a return to the 1950s.

I'm calling for a return to 2009, with strict attention to protocol and detail.

As was noted above, Saint Doug had his problems with off-the-field discipline, something you seem to either ignore or not care about. So let's talk about discipline on the field.

As you mention several times, you want a return to 2009. OK, here we go. Stats from cuse.com

2009 penalties = 85 That's about 7.1 per game.

2014 penalties = 72 That's 7.2 per game.

Not that big a difference that I can see.

 

[Millhouse]

Are you familiar with the ignore feature?

i love the ignore feature because I grin everytime someone says "I'm putting you back on ignore" without explaining why they were unignored, if that were a word

 

[Millhouse]

I can't believe a thread like this exists on a site that also houses a forum about Syracuse basketball.

Second winningest coach of all time.

How're all those rules about personal grooming doing there.

Oy.

i'm willing to bet that stodgy mcstodgerson isn't that big a basketball fan or a big boeheim fan

 

[Scooch]

i'm willing to bet that stodgy mcstodgerson isn't that big a basketball fan or a big boeheim fan

I'm sure.

But he is a big fan of correlation equaling causation.

 

[OrangePA]

As was noted above, Saint Doug had his problems with off-the-field discipline, something you seem to either ignore or not care about. So let's talk about discipline on the field.

As you mention several times, you want a return to 2009. OK, here we go. Stats from cuse.com

2009 penalties = 85 That's about 7.1 per game.

2014 penalties = 72 That's 7.2 per game.

Not that big a difference that I can see.

I guess you just don't want to read what I have said.

Off the field issues are just too personal to the individual for me to address.

I don't know enough about the situations or the person himself to comment.

How can I possibly know why MCW did what he did or why T. Hunt did what he did?

And how can I attribute what they did to Marrone or Boeheim?

That's a difficult issue for me to address. It's not that I don't care or feel it's irrelevant. I just don't know enough about the individual facts to understand or address what happened or why it happened.

Got it?

Again, you don't read what I am saying.

We are a three win team right now.

We have far more talent this year I think than we did in 2009. That team - coming off a two or three win season - was put together in the spring and fall with a QB who had not played football in four years and an LB corp that was so bad that we had to try to get a JC LB in late summer to start - and he didn't make it to first game. Nobody expected that team to win eight games.

And we played some tough teams that year including USF, Cincy, Louisville and others.

So, the number of penalties is about the same. Okay. But the 2009 team got more out of its talent than this team is getting.

I understand, you disagree with me. I get it.

What is your answer to this season? Why did this team struggle against Villanova from the opening KO?

 

[OrangePA]

I can't believe a thread like this exists on a site that also houses a forum about Syracuse basketball.

Second winningest coach of all time.

How're all those rules about personal grooming doing there.

Oy.

Yeah, but the second winningest coach has top ten talent every year - maybe top five talent.

He has had guys like Billy Owens, Pearl, D. Coleman, Sherman, Dion, Carmello, G Mac, MCW, Johnny, Donte Green and on and on and on. He's had some of the best players ever to play college BB.

SU BB gets the kind of recruits that Oregon and Alabama get in FB.

You, the market analyst are comparing SU BB to SU FB?

You have not followed the discussion. If you had read, you would have noted my observation that I would rather have a bearded Amare Cooper than a clean shaven Ben Lewis.

But, good try Scooch.

 

[NKR1978]

Maybe to the lay person, the idea of pushing etiquette and personal appearance has no impact. But for anybody who has played at a competitive level, it means something. It meant something to John Wooden and Bob Knight and to Joe Paterno and Doug Marrone- that's good enough for me.

I don't know that Knight and Paterno should be held up as some paragons of virtue and all that is right in sports. Knight choked a kid. Somewhat comical that a man incapable of suppressing some really messed up rage issues is held up as an example of "discipline." The man was not disciplined at all on his own personal level.

Joe Paterno is a special kind of hypocrite and if there's a hell, I hope he's rotting in it for turning his back for decades on all those boys when he had the power to stop Sandusky.

John Wooden is regarded as one of the biggest cheaters in the history of college basketball. Of course history regarding St. John has been whitewashed, but there are a ton of stories of how dirty those UCLA teams were.

 

[Scooch]

Yeah, but the second winningest coach has top ten talent every year - maybe top five talent.

He has had guys like Billy Owens, Pearl, D. Coleman, Sherman, Dion, Carmello, G Mac, MCW, Johnny, Donte Green and on and on and on. He's had some of the best players ever to play college BB.

SU BB gets the kind of recruits that Oregon and Alabama get in FB.

You, the market analyst are comparing SU BB to SU FB?

You have not followed the discussion. If you had read, you would have noted my observation that I would rather have a bearded Amare Cooper than a clean shaven Ben Lewis.

But, good try Scooch.

Why does that matter, though?

You're hung up on the notion of "at this point" in terms of our program. But is there any evidence that shows that superficial "disclipline" measures like banning facial hair have a direct impact on how to build a better program?

You've used penalties as an on-field manifestation of lack of discipline. Well I did some research...

In 2001, a very strong 10-3 year for our Orange, we were 91st out of 115 1-A schools in terms of penalties per game with 8.33. That's bad right? And coming off two years where we were 13-10 combined you'd think a focus on discipline to reduce penalties would have been high, right? Just like this year, when we were coming off a 15-11 two-year record?

But in 2002 we improved dramatically, up to 27th in penalties per game, at just 5.75. Sadly we went 4-8 that year.

And we know Greg Robinson ran undisciplined program. So clearly by his last year, when everyone, fans and players alike, knew he was on his way out, the kids must have been running wild, right? Except that year we were 14th in the country with just 4.5 penalties per game. Tremendous discipline I guess, for a 3-9 team.

My point is that "discpline" comes in all forms and methods. We have had a LOT of things go haywire this season, but suggesting that "discipline" is a major factor reads to me like a poor kind of pop psychology.

 

[TheCusian]

If by "discipline" you mean penalties, then yes. Otherwise, no.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Wait, so programs like Oregon and Alabama win because of superior talent, but Wooden Paterno and Knight won because of discipline and extreme attention to detail?

You know who else regulates facial hair? Randy Edsall.

 

[djorange1989]

No crap. But at least the kids had hair-cuts and no beards when they had run-in's with the law

Yep, that Johnny Miller sure looked handsome in his mugshot photo, all clean cut and stuff. We committed a ton of penalties on the field under Marrone too, and no it wasn't just Shafer's defense doing it. People do love to forget..

 

[llandz]

I don't really want to jump into this argument. But I will. So at first I was almost appalled at what Orange PA was saying. What I really do not like here is the personal attacks that are going on in this thread.

Now with that aside I think the way Orange PA is presenting his case in the last few posts makes more sense. He has clarified what his original intent was in suggesting how grooming might help. I am not sure yet that I agree with him, but he has made some points very clear, and some are not seeing this.

He has stated over and over that this policy might not apply if we had 4 or 5 star caliber of players on our team. So to compare to our basketball team is not a valid argument. PA says we need some sort of discipline with our current roster of players.

And I think maybe "discipline" may be the word we might be upset with. Because it brings about a lot of connotations we are not liking. What if we were to use a phrase like "building team camaraderie"? What if we took what he was saying and flipped the concept and used the idea of all of the players growing beards together in unity as has been done many times in sports history? I think what he is getting is a kind of "team" discipline where you are getting everyone to work on the same goal, on the same page at the same time, and each player is accountable for their part of the equation. So if you are the player who moves on the snap and makes a third and short a third and long, you are accountable to the team, the coach and all of the staff. Being part of a camaraderie building concept, such as shaving OR growing beards makes for that type of team accountability.

Just another way to maybe look at this? I think we need to respect a players dreads for example as it is a part of their culture. I don't think we should mess with a culture that may be different from our culture. But there are other ways that discipline could work here. I understand the concept, just not sure what the right way to implement it is.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

So, the number of penalties is about the same. Okay. But the 2009 team got more out of its talent than this team is getting.

The 2009 team wasn't any more disciplined than this 2014 team, despite being well-groomed. It had better players at QB, RB, WR. That team wasn't starting a true freshman at QB. I don't understand why you think there is a correlation between personal grooming habits and discipline on the football field. Shaving every day or getting a haircut has nothing to do with attention to detail on the football field. I guarantee you the least penalized teams in college football have players on their teams with dreadlocks and beards and tattoos.