Baseball build your best team

.

jncuse

Living Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
10,114
Likes
13,120
#26
we getting Bonds Pre 2000 where he was really just slightly above good only 1 yr or bonds after 35 where he went nuts?
:confused:

3 times MVP before 2000
7 times top 5 MVP before 2000

1548817092276.png


He was a great fielder with a very accurate arm before he went steroids.

And now I pull from my reading cabinet the Bill James New Historical Baseball Abstract (published in 2000) which said he was the best Left Fielder of the 90's, the best player in 1991, 1992, 1993 and 1995, and the 16th best player of all time (ranked during 2000 season).

So only 1 slightly above good year before 2000? I don't think so
 

jncuse

Living Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
10,114
Likes
13,120
#27
so in the prime of his career, of almost every career in baseball up to 2000 when he was 35, he hit more than 40 home runs 2 times.. he hit over .310 one time... from that point on he hit 300 HRs..

Willie Mays up to 35 hit over 40, 5 times on that same span and missed 2 yrs after is ROY to go into the service and then came back and hit 41. In the freakin Polo grounds.. after he was 35 he hit about 125 HRs. he hit .310 or close to it 10 times on that same span. Played 10 less games a yr back then so lost almost 3 seasons in his prime between Service and length of season..

Bonds was a nice player, a top 10 LF in that era. he was not an elite fielder. He was better than his dad fir sure. he stole 50 one yr when the leader had 77.. nice

he stole bases in an era when it was the thing to do and pretty solid at it for a few yrs.. top 10 a couple times.

willie mays stole 40 one yr when the next guy stole 22, he was first 3 times and top 5 six yrs in a row, then quit stealing them ,

If bonds finishes his career like most people back then and doesnt go crazy he ends up 450-500 Hrs and is border line HFr.

you put a different name on him and he doesnt win 3 MVPs by the age of 30 with the stats he was throwing up. He was dominant after 35 not before and you are hard pressed to find 3-5 other guys in almost 150 yrs of baseball who can say that.

again you have to be over 45-50 to have watched much of him before he went steroid crazy and baseball was not on nearly as much, just the primetime games back then.

400/400 is nice but its taken out of context.
Wow. I don't what to say. So much wrong in your comment.

1) Willie Mays is a top 10 player of all time. If Bonds does not measure up to him in all areas, it doesn't mean he is not a great. Plus I think you are exaggerating the variances here.

A top 10 LF in that era? Really. Bill James in 2000 had him ranked as the 3rd best Left Fielder of All time behind Ted Williams and Stan Musial. He also wrote "Along with Rickey Henderson, Barry Bonds is the most underappreciated superstar of my lifetime)

Remember that 1990-1993 was a defensive era, especially in the NL. The 50s was much more of an offensive era.

In terms of stealing bases... this was not the 70s or 80s. Stealing 39 bases a year over the decade, made him one of the 5 base stealers of the decade.

Not an elite fielder? 7 Gold Gloves mean nothing to you? I was an Expos fan that watched the Pirates play often as they were in the NL East as well. I watched him play in person about a dozen times during his high atletiic era.

A different name on him and he doesn't win the MVP? Who the hell is the MVP then in those year? Are you insinuating having the name of his father who was a very disliked person helped him win awards?

1548818597632.png


1548818689083.png


1548818738462.png


Tell me who was MVP in any of those years other than Bonds.

Just being borderline HOF'er before 2000 was nuts. He was an all time great player and jerk before the roids. But a great.

I suspect you are one of those HR, RBI,AVG guys who totally discounts the value that 130 BB's per season (his average in the 90s) It's OK you are around fifty. When I was 9 years old I was reading the Bill James Abstract and the Elias Baseball Analyst. I assume you still thought the RBI was king back at the time.

I
 
Last edited:

jncuse

Living Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
10,114
Likes
13,120
#28
He won the 1990, 1992, and 1993 MVP award. Clearly. And he should have had 4 MVP's in a row.

Bonds also deserved the 1991 MVP but was robbed by 45-50 year old fans who thought Terry Pendleton was a great leader for leading Justice, Gant, Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, and Avery back to the playoffs again.

Bonds led the Pirates to a 98 win season, and back to the playoffs for the first time in over 10 years. But hey Terry Pendleton was a nice guy. One of the silliest MVP votes ever.


1548819197315.png
 

upperdeck

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
12,213
Likes
7,881
#29
yeah perhaps.. but i trust what i know about baseball way more than WAR. they also rank his standing as a player because of his crazy HR numbers built in not because of his ability to play the field.

He had a nice accurate arm, but it was an avg throwing arm, his best throws were long hops and he threw guys out because they ran on him.

go look at the list of best left fielders of all time and figure out which ones were good defenders on the list. its tough. You see a lot of good CFs and RFs not many LFs.
 

upperdeck

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
12,213
Likes
7,881
#30
He won the 1990, 1992, and 1993 MVP award. Clearly. And he should have had 4 MVP's in a row.

Bonds also deserved the 1991 MVP but was robbed by 45-50 year old fans who thought Terry Pendleton was a great leader for leading Justice, Gant, Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, and Avery back to the playoffs again.

Bonds led the Pirates to a 98 win season, and back to the playoffs for the first time in over 10 years. But hey Terry Pendleton was a nice guy. One of the silliest MVP votes ever.


View attachment 151648
Hojo and Clark had better yrs that yr too.
 

jncuse

Living Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
10,114
Likes
13,120
#31
yeah perhaps.. but i trust what i know about baseball way more than WAR. they also rank his standing as a player because of his crazy HR numbers built in not because of his ability to play the field.

He had a nice accurate arm, but it was an avg throwing arm, his best throws were long hops and he threw guys out because they ran on him.

go look at the list of best left fielders of all time and figure out which ones were good defenders on the list. its tough. You see a lot of good CFs and RFs not many LFs.
So you know way more about baseball then WAR. That's fine. Make a reasonable case for anybody for MVP instead of Bonds from 1990-1993.
 

jncuse

Living Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
10,114
Likes
13,120
#32
Hojo and Clark had better yrs that yr too.
The fact that Bonds reached base via Hit or BB about 35 more times than both is not relevant? Or that he was a more impactful defender and baserunner than either of those two? Or that he led his team to 98 wins and the playoffs... while the Mets won 77 and the Giants won 75?

Johnson had more hR's and Clark had a batting Avg 9 points higher so they were better? That's all I can see.

What about the fact that Bonds had an OBP of .410, which destroyed Will Clark's .359 and HoJo's ,342.

But I now know why you are a 45-50 year old baseball fan. You are one of those fans from the era who think AVG/HR/RBI rule
 

upperdeck

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
12,213
Likes
7,881
#33
WAR is a statistic someone came up with does that make it correct? It says Bonds is above Willie Mays, but then again he had those crazy 5 yrs where he was better than anyone all time hitting HRs and walks

its purely a numbers game that takes into no account the actual play on the field in many cases, its just the result of the play, it doesnt care what happened on the play just the result.
 

upperdeck

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
12,213
Likes
7,881
#34
The fact that Bonds reached base via Hit or BB about 35 more times than Howard johnson is not relevant? Or that he was a more impactful defender and baserunner than either of those two? Or that he led his team to 98 wins and the playoffs... while the Mets won 77 and the Giants won 75?

Johnson had more hR's and Clark had a batting Avg 9 points higher so they were better? That's all I can see.

What about the fact that Bonds had an OBP of .410, which destroyed Will Clark's .359 and HoJo's ,342.

But I now know why you are a 45-50 year old baseball fan. You are one of those fans from the era who think AVG/HR/RBI rule
yup. i think what happens on the field matters more than did i run from first to 3rd on a single.

in about 15-20 yrs something new will come out and WAR people will be upset too..

HOJO/Clar were better that yr. Pendelton I dont get either
 

jncuse

Living Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
10,114
Likes
13,120
#35
WAR is a statistic someone came up with does that make it correct? It says Bonds is above Willie Mays, but then again he had those crazy 5 yrs where he was better than anyone all time hitting HRs and walks

its purely a numbers game that takes into no account the actual play on the field in many cases, its just the result of the play, it doesnt care what happened on the play just the result.
You don't even need to look at WAR to show that Bonds was clearly better then the other MVP candidates in that four year span Hell the voters at the time had no damn clue what WAR was either.

And yet he was a runaway MVP for 3 of 4 years.. And they screwed up with Pendleton.
 

jncuse

Living Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
10,114
Likes
13,120
#36
yup. i think what happens on the field matters more than did i run from first to 3rd on a single.

in about 15-20 yrs something new will come out and WAR people will be upset too..
WAR WAS NOT EVEN A STAT FROM 1990-1993. Stop saying its all about WAR. It's not. He was runaway MVP for 3 years our of 4 (and a close 2nd the other) when writers could not give 2 craps about WAR or more modern baseball analytics.
 

dasher

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
25,143
Likes
42,183
#37
My team
P Pedro $2
C Posada $1
1b Cabrera $4
2b Cano $2
ss Ozzie $1
3b Arenado $2
LF Manny $3
CF Trout $5
RF Betts $3
Closer Mo $5
DH Ortiz


Batting order Betts, Cano, Trout, Cabrera, Manny, Ortiz, Arenado, Posada, Ozzie I win
Best starting pitxcher I ever saw. Best closer. great defense and what a life up
 

jncuse

Living Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
10,114
Likes
13,120
#39
If it's the last 30 years, I am surprised they put Ozzie Smith on the list.

After 1987, his peak year in which he deserved the MVP with 0 years, he was not a great for much longer. Guys like Garciaparra, Tejada or a glove type like VIzquel accomplished more after 1988,

Dennis Eckersley may have had the greatest 4 year run as a closer between 1989-1992. I would have put him over Craig freaking Kimbrel.
 

OttoinGrotto

Professor Irwin Corey
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
25,590
Likes
45,854
#42
WAR WAS NOT EVEN A STAT FROM 1990-1993. Stop saying its all about WAR. It's not. He was runaway MVP for 3 years our of 4 (and a close 2nd the other) when writers could not give 2 craps about WAR or more modern baseball analytics.
I like to say WAR, what is it good for?
 

Trueblue25

Cali Award Magistrate
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
20,407
Likes
28,990
#44
Your age means nothing here. I never saw Ted Williams play but I’m confident he’s one of the best hitters baseball has ever seen.

You saying Bonds only had 1 “slightly above good” year from 86-99 is hilarious. “I get the stats but I’m just going to ignore them because i didn’t think he was very good”

He was a 400hr/400stolen bases guy from 86-99 ... the only member in the entire history of baseball. He’s also the only member of the 500/500 club. Or do those stats mean nothing too
Ted Williams, Manny Ramirez, Griffey Jr.

Best swings in history
 

KaiserUEO

2018 Cali Winner: Receiving TDs
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
14,080
Likes
16,883
#46
My, My, You really can't be that dumb.
If we throw out Duane, not sure which Allman Brothers guitarist you’d want over Dickie, because clearly you can’t be talking about a guy who has played 5 years and had only 1 great year, 1 good one and 3 so-so to bad ones.

I mean why would anyone be giving that guy time and consideration on this exercise???
 

dasher

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
25,143
Likes
42,183
#47
If we throw out Duane, not sure which Allman Brothers guitarist you’d want over Dickie, because clearly you can’t be talking about a guy who has played 5 years and had only 1 great year, 1 good one and 3 so-so to bad ones.

I mean why would anyone be giving that guy time and consideration on this exercise???
1 great year, 1 good one? He has a 1st in MVP and a 2ud in myp in the last three years. Finishing 2ud in the mvp is a good year? The bad year he finished 6th. He has won the last three gold gloves in right field. If he played for the Yankees, you would already be pushing him for the Hall of Fame.
 

KaiserUEO

2018 Cali Winner: Receiving TDs
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
14,080
Likes
16,883
#48
1 great year, 1 good one? He has a 1st in MVP and a 2ud in myp in the last three years. Finishing 2ud in the mvp is a good year? The bad year he finished 6th. He has won the last three gold gloves in right field. If he played for the Yankees, you would already be pushing him for the Hall of Fame.
Wow, holy Boston bias Batman!!! The suck up BBWA gave him 2nd that year??!!

And they gave him 5th for that crappy 260 year??

Wow, just wow.

Still not a big enough body of work.

His accomplishments still are smaller than Donnie Baseball’s and he’s an afterthought now.

Thank God they put Baines in though...
 

dasher

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
25,143
Likes
42,183
#49
Wow, holy Boston bias Batman!!! The suck up BBWA gave him 2nd that year??!!

And they gave him 5th for that crappy 260 year??

Wow, just wow.

Still not a big enough body of work.

His accomplishments still are smaller than Donnie Baseball’s and he’s an afterthought now.

Thank God they put Baines in though...
get help
 

Alsacs

I am statboy because I use stats to form opinions
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
37,672
Likes
41,650
#50
Wow, holy Boston bias Batman!!! The suck up BBWA gave him 2nd that year??!!

And they gave him 5th for that crappy 260 year??

Wow, just wow.

Still not a big enough body of work.

His accomplishments still are smaller than Donnie Baseball’s and he’s an afterthought now.

Thank God they put Baines in though...
If you don’t realize how good Mookie Betts is in baseball I don’t get it.
He is by far the 2nd best player in baseball right now and would have 2 MVPs if not for Trout’s insanity.
 
.
Top Bottom