BE rules against Toledo | Syracusefan.com

BE rules against Toledo

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rrlbees

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Game over. 33-30.
 

fanfanclubclub

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Game over. 33-30.

Fortunate ruling for the Cuse.

I was talking to a BCS Athletic Director, who used to work for a Big East school, about this very issue.

He said that the issue was pretty complicated, because the NCAA was trending towards reviewing errors that directly impact the score. He brought up a recent example that I was unaware of: just two weeks ago, the PAC-12 changed the score of a USC/Utah game because of an obvious error that directly impacted the score.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/...anges-usc-trojans-utah-utes-final-score-23-14

Pretty strange ruling, but the AD explained that this was the direction in which the NCAA wanted to move regarding bad calls that directly impact the score.

Also, we discussed how the bad PAT call was somewhat different than more subjective calls, like a pass interference. The bad PAT call is very much analogous to a situation where the scorer simply gives a team 7 points when, infact, the team had merely punted. In such a situation, it is hard to know what to do. Perhaps the win ought to simply be vacated, perhaps the game ought to be rescheduled like in baseball. It is hard to know what to do, when the officials simply give a team points that they did not earn.

If Cuse fans were in Toledo's shoes, I am not sure we would all agree that the win is totally legitimate, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a "stupid . . . idiot. . . that doesn't understand football." If an official scorer simply gave Toledo points that they did not earn with 2:00 left in the 4th quarter, I don't think many of us would regard a Toledo victory as legitimate.

Anyways, what many posters do not seem to understand, is that a bad PAT call is different than a missed pass interference call in this very specific respect: at the end of regulation, we can definitely say that Toledo scored more points than Syracuse. That is why NCAA and conference officials are taking a close look at this one. Missed holding calls do not have the same degree of direct impact on the score. When a holding call is missed, it does not create a discrepancy between the score and the actual number of points scored in a game; but when a team is simply given credit for points they did not score, it does directly create a discrepancy between the score and the actual number of points scored.

This point I am making is simply a normative observation: Toledo scored more actual points during regulation. This observation has absolutely nothing to do with pretending that the game "would have played out" exactly the same way that it did, had the PAT been ruled correctly. It is not necessary to imagine "what would have happened" in order to make the very simply analysis that, at the end of regulation, Syracuse had scored fewer points. That is why this snafu is somewhat unique. The posters arguing that the game would have turned out differently, are arguing a straw-man.

Also, with the recent USC/BYU ruling, a vacated win was definitely a possibility. I hear the NCAA will be conducting an inquiry panel on how to handle SU/Toledo & USC/BYU issues going forward, so this game will probably come up again.

Anywho, just my opinion, but some folks on this board might want to learn how to "take it as well as they give it." Too many well connected posters get banned, or have their IPs redirected or other petty nonsense, just because they respond intellectually to moderators who are calling them idiots, morons, etc.
 

chakka3421

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fanfanclubclub - let it go - if bees says game over, its game over. I dont get how you keep carrying on like this like your some big know it all with major type connections...
 

LeMoyneCuse

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Fan- I take umbridge with you saying this is "lucky" for Syracuse. There's no reasonable way to replay the last 2 minutes of that game, and Syracuse could easily take this to court if the win would have been overturned. Getting the situation on a court docket would take longer than the length of the season, enough time for the team to qualify for a bowl game.

Perhaps the NCAA could overturn a game ending situation, but it would be incredibly difficult to do so with the situation we've just experienced. Also, I feel any decision to reverse an outcome would be more unpopular and draw much more ire than a botched call does.
 
D

dash-30-dash

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Fan, I want the time I spent reading your useless post. The reason that games are not over turned is that we don't know what would have happened. To suggest otherwise is silly. Also, the USC game did not change the winner of the game. Just the score. Let me know when they reverse a game outcome. I'll help you. They won't.
 

bnoro

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Anywho, just my opinion, but some folks on this board might want to learn how to "take it as well as they give it." Too many well connected posters get banned, or have their IPs redirected or other petty nonsense, just because they respond intellectually to moderators who are calling them idiots, morons, etc.

You must be good buddies with MDB80 from OrangeFizz and Rivals, who claims all insider info from these boards is stolen from rivals and hates everyone here
 

JOC44

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I agree with dash-30-dash. I'm going to petition the MAC to get me back the five minutes I spent reading that.
 

fanfanclubclub

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Let me know when they reverse a game outcome. I'll help you. They won't.

Hey Dash, actually, the NCAA has reversed game outcomes in the past.

Therefore the press release statement that, " By rule once the game is declared over the score is final and there is no recourse to reverse an outcome. (Rule 1, Section 1, Article 3, Paragraph b of the 2011 NCAA Football Rules and Interpretations.)" is not as absolute as the quote makes it seem: as there are exceptions to this rule, that have resulted in game outcomes being reversed.

In 1993, Alabama was forced to forfeit, not vacate, 9 games retroactively. For example, Alabama beat Vanderbilt 17-6, but the NCAA conference officials required Alabama to retrospectively forfeit the game, thus awarding Vanderbilt a victory.

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/4734/what-does-vacating-wins-really-mean

Although the press sloppily uses the terms interchangeably, a retroactive forfeit is differently than a retroactive vacated win, in that the opponent who lost the game actually gets to score it as a win.

Similarly, in 1959, the Big 8 forced Kansas to forfeit a win that they had over Missouri. Even though the score was 23-7 Kansas, the win ended up going to Missouri. There are several other examples.

I hadn't known of any of these instanced, but the AD that I spoke with on Saturday told me that NCAA and conference officials have reversed the outcome of games (not merely vacating victories) more than a handful of times in the past.

So not only did the NCAA change the score of the USC/Utah game after conclusion just two weeks ago, but NCAA precedent exists for the even-more-extreme remedy of reversing the outcome of the game.

Obviously, this is not an easy call. Some fans who believe that "Syracuse is not good enough to have bad wins" are simply resorting to ad hominem attacks because I dared to challenge the legitimacy of our win: a win that obviously has dubious legitimacy.
 

PoppyHart

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See link below...NCAA regulations do not allow for vacating wins under these circumstances. End. Of. Story.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsport...e-to-reverse-outcome-of-toledo-syracuse-game/

This is what the rule says:
“When the referee declares that the game is ended, the score is final . … By rule, once the game is declared over the score is final and there is no recourse to reverse an outcome.”

Clearly, in the USC-Utah game, the game was "declared over", yet the score was NOT "final". So, I wouldn't go to a strict constructionist view of the bylaw to MAKE. A. POINT.

For all practical purposes, reversing an outcome involving winner and loser is asking for problems. But, since the PAC-12 was willing to add points to USC, you have to at least contemplate a scenario where Utah had seemingly won the game, had the score disallowed due to a dead ball penalty, and later had said call rescinded. For example, say they faked the FG, a la Michigan State vs. ND last year in OT, and the receiver was so wide open that the Utah bench stormed the field before he crossed the goalline. Under Pac-12 precedent, Utah wins even if the TD is disallowed on the field.
 

LeMoyneCuse

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Hey Dash, actually, the NCAA has reversed game outcomes in the past.

Therefore the Big East statement that, " By rule once the game is declared over the score is final and there is no recourse to reverse an outcome. (Rule 1, Section 1, Article 3, Paragraph b of the 2011 NCAA Football Rules and Interpretations.)" is incorrect.

In 1993, Alabama was forced to forfeit, not vacate, 9 games retroactively. For example, Alabama beat Vanderbilt 16-3, but the NCAA conference officials required Alabama to retrospectively forfeit the game, thus awarding Vanderbilt a victory.

That's apples to oranges. Bama had to give up those wins because of off-field issues. Colorado didn't have to give up its win against Missouri in the 5th Down game, where a refereeing decision directly impacted the final score.
 

PoppyHart

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Fan- I take umbridge with you saying this is "lucky" for Syracuse. There's no reasonable way to replay the last 2 minutes of that game, and Syracuse could easily take this to court if the win would have been overturned. Getting the situation on a court docket would take longer than the length of the season, enough time for the team to qualify for a bowl game.

Perhaps the NCAA could overturn a game ending situation, but it would be incredibly difficult to do so with the situation we've just experienced. Also, I feel any decision to reverse an outcome would be more unpopular and draw much more ire than a botched call does.

Why would a court have jurisdiction over this dispute? I don't think the aggrieved party would have any standing here, unless you got really creative with the complaint.
 

Mistakebythelake90

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When the NCAA reversed the score of the Utah/USC game, it had no outcome on the final, and was only a change of interpretation on a new rule. USC was up 17-14, and had a pick 6 as time was expiring. USC ran it in for a touchdown, but was flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct. This year, Refs can take off points off the board for unsportsmanlike conduct, and did so. The NCAA then changed its mind and decided that the foul was on the bench for unsportsmanlike conduct, which makes it a dead-ball foul, and so assessed the penalty after, which didn't matter. The NCAA changing the score had nothing to do with the outcome of the game.

The more interesting question in all this missed PAT debate is this: Should the NCAA be able to change a score IF it would have absolutely decided the game? SU fans and bloggers around the webs will be arguing till their face is blue that you don't know how the last 2 minutes would have played out if they didn't count the PAT. But what if it was a more arbitrary situation? What if a team is down 2, going to kick a field goal as time expires, and the Refs make the same call they did on our extra point? Should the NCAA be able to change the score in this situation?
 

LeMoyneCuse

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Why would a court have jurisdiction over this dispute? I don't think the aggrieved party would have any standing here, unless you got really creative with the complaint.

Good point. I'm not really sure. I mean, SU would have to appeal first to the NCAA. But they could make a case in a lawsuit if they had to. I know little about civil law. But I'm confident they could find something.
 
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dash-30-dash

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That is not even close to the same thing. Games were taken away becuase of illegal players. But you knew that. That is more time I have to get back. Thanks a lot.
 

fanfanclubclub

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That's apples to oranges. Bama had to give up those wins because of off-field issues. Colorado didn't have to give up its win against Missouri in the 5th Down game, where a refereeing decision directly impacted the final score.

Right, the Colorado-Missouri game is a good example that cuts against what I am arguing. Seems like you have come up with the most relevant example.

For what it is worth, however, I think PoppyHart makes a real, basic, and compelling argument that, under the USC/BYU precedent, the outcome of a game could be reversed.

Clearly, in the USC-Utah game, the game was "declared over", yet the score was NOT "final".
So, I wouldn't go to a strict constructionist view of the bylaw to MAKE. A. POINT.

. . . since the PAC-12 was willing to add points to USC, you have to at least contemplate a scenario where Utah had seemingly won the game, had the score disallowed due to a dead ball penalty, and later had said call rescinded. For example, say they faked the FG, a la Michigan State vs. ND last year in OT, and the receiver was so wide open that the Utah bench stormed the field before he crossed the goalline. Under Pac-12 precedent, Utah wins even if the TD is disallowed on the field.

Pretty hard to argue with Poppy's points.

Even though the Missouri-Colorado game is a very relevant and helpful example, it is worth mentioning that:

*there is no NCAA rule that says "only off-field issues shall result in the reversal of the outcome of a game,"

and similarly

*there is no NCAA rule that says "final scores of games can only be changed retroactively when such a change does not effect the outcome of the game."

Since the PAC-12 just recently shook the boat by retroactively changing the score of a game, after the game was declared final, the obvious possibility arose that a game outcome may be reversed. Therefore, this bad PAT call raised some interesting issues.
 

bnoro

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rrlbees = rutgers?

What's your angle fanfanclubclub? Are you posing as a Syracuse fan so you can run back to the Rutgers board with your "I got banned badge of honor?" Are you looking to be the first SU fan that gets the taser? Do you hate the team this much that you have spent a good portion of the last 3 days arguing this point?
 

690West

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The most problematic part of all this is that fanfan wishes it was reversed. He can say differently but that concerns me cuz he's a good poster
 
D

dash-30-dash

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There is no question that fanfan wanted the game reversed. The only answer can be that he is not really a Syracuse fan. Look at the heading of one of his posts. We are lucky to be 3-1. Actually, we aren't. We beat Wake. He isn't willing to say that the Toledo game might have turned out different if we were only up by 2 but he is willing to make the leap that we would have lost if only the qb for Wake hadn't been hurt. The qb doesn't play defense last I looked and they didn't stop us at the end of the game.
 

LeMoyneCuse

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Since the PAC-12 just recently shook the boat by retroactively changing the score of a game, after the game was declared final, the obvious possibility arose that a game outcome may be reversed. Therefore, this bad PAT call raised some interesting issues.

I mean, I guess points could be taken off the board because of the controversy. But in that case, if they're going to alter the tally, wouldn't that just make it 32-30?
 

fanfanclubclub

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There is no question that fanfan wanted the game reversed. The only answer can be that he is not really a Syracuse fan

Haha, so typical. "If you disagree with me, then you are not a Syracuse fan"
-the recourse of someone who has just lost an argument.

I have mixed feelings about the "win:" I want the victory in the W column, but I hate to see the Cuse lose so much face nationally: obviously, many national commentators are burying Cuse, mocking us for desperately clinging to a win gift-wrapped by a Big East officiating crew. So close to the Pin Stripes bowl, this doesn't help our effort to win back national respect.

As someone interested in athletic administration, probably the best outcome would be to vacate the game because of gambling concerns, with an effort to replay the game. The line was Toledo +2, and anyone familiar with the history of sports gambling and the Donaghy saga will not dismiss gambling concerns as a conspiracy theory. The possibility of some funny business isn't a matter to be taken lightly.

Probably the best case scenario, as a fan, would be for the NCAA to step in, change the score to 32-30, put the replay officials on probation, and vacate Toledo's loss but uphold our win. That accommodates pretty much everyone. The fact that Toledo got seriously screwed makes us look bad. If the NCAA vacated Toledo's loss, we wouldn't look so bad by comparison.
 

Chip

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Game over. 33-30.

I think this post appropriately captures the # of words that should be used to describe this ruling and its results. I'm a little shocked at how much was written just after this post. Bring on Rutgers, this issue was dead on Saturday at 4 pm.
 

javadoc

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Good Lord.

I'll make a normative statement of my own. If a ref blows a call, there is a mechanism to correct it - challenges and in-game review. If that fails, so be it. Trying to mess with the score after a game has ended is crap, including the USC case earlier this year.
 

suloyalfan

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This point I am making is simply a normative observation: Toledo scored more actual points during regulation. This observation has absolutely nothing to do with pretending that the game "would have played out" exactly the same way that it did, had the PAT been ruled correctly. It is not necessary to imagine "what would have happened" in order to make the very simply analysis that, at the end of regulation, Syracuse had scored fewer points. That is why this snafu is somewhat unique. The posters arguing that the game would have turned out differently, are arguing a straw-man.

No, it's not a "straw-man". That's like saying if Toledo had missed the field goal at the end of the 1st half instead of making the 51 yard field goal, that Syracuse would have definitely won by 2 or 3 points because at the end of the game, they would have had more points scored in regulation. Each play, and each twist and turn of the game has an impact on the game.

There is no way that anyone could just take away the extra point from Syracuse and just pretend that the last +2 minutes of the game would go the same way. There is absolutely no guarantee that Toledo scores any more points. You can't assume that they would have just driven down the field and kicked a field goal for the win. Syracuse would have played the kickoff and defense differently if they were facing a loss as time expired knowing that they were only 2 points ahead instead of 3. Instead, they played more conservatively and didn't use their last 2 time outs to conserve time (they used one to "ice" the kicker, but it wasn't to preserve clock).

As I see it, there are only 2 ways to go here. You either just shut up and move on and realize that people make mistakes and sometimes they go your way, sometimes they done. Or, you go back and replay the final 2:09 of the game with Syracuse leading 29-27. Anything else is way off the mark.
 

tep624

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Haha, so typical. "If you disagree with me, then you are not a Syracuse fan"
-the recourse of someone who has just lost an argument.

I have mixed feelings about the "win:" I want the victory in the W column, but I hate to see the Cuse lose so much face nationally: obviously, many national commentators are burying Cuse, mocking us for desperately clinging to a win gift-wrapped by a Big East officiating crew. So close to the Pin Stripes bowl, this doesn't help our effort to win back national respect.

As someone interested in athletic administration, probably the best outcome would be to vacate the game because of gambling concerns, with an effort to replay the game. The line was Toledo +2, and anyone familiar with the history of sports gambling and the Donaghy saga will not dismiss gambling concerns as a conspiracy theory. The possibility of some funny business isn't a matter to be taken lightly.

Probably the best case scenario, as a fan, would be for the NCAA to step in, change the score to 32-30, put the replay officials on probation, and vacate Toledo's loss but uphold our win. That accommodates pretty much everyone. The fact that Toledo got seriously screwed makes us look bad. If the NCAA vacated Toledo's loss, we wouldn't look so bad by comparison.
What distorted view of reality do you have? You really think anyone in the media that actually matters at this point in time gives a stuff about the outcome of the Syracuse - Toledo game?

Gambling concerns? Wow, you really are drawing at straws. Unbelievable.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill to try to push your agenda.
 
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