Best Cuse player ever

[Consigliere]

Agree with all this with the exception of Bing being the best player pre-Boeheim. JB himself said Bing is the GOAT all-time of our program. His numbers were insane.

View attachment 224045

Without a 3 point shot...

 

[Eric15]

Without a 3 point shot...

Similar to Pete Maravich. Lord only knows what they would have done with a three-point shot.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Similar to Pete Maravich. Lord only knows what they would have done with a three-point shot.

From an interview with Bill Walton. Dale Brown tried to answer that question for Pete. Worked off the running score, with distance being estimated, but probably as good as it can get, absent film.

“Amazing [thing] about Pete is … 44 points per game, in his career, for three straight years in an era with no 3-point line. Dale Brown, who coached LSU after Press and Pete were there, went back and charted all the games with the running score – Maravich free-throw, Maravich 22-foot jumper, Maravich lay-up – and he calculated that with the current college 3-point line rule at 19’9” Pete Maravich would have averaged 13 3-point makes per game, which would have given him a career average of 57.0 points per game under today’s rules! That guy was UN-BE-LIEVABLE! We love him, we miss him terribly, what a great man, what a great human being.”

Bill Walton

 

[Fat tire 13]

1. Best single season Carmelo Anthony
2. Most important player in terms of building the program Pearl Washington
3. Best 4 year career it’s either Derrick Coleman or Sherman Douglas.
I personally would go with Douglas slightly over Coleman because great guard play matters more in college hoops.
4. Pre-Boeheim best player is obviously Dave Bing.

Good way to look at it

In regards to #3, when Douglas graduated he had the all time assists record (still in top 10 today)

 

[Eric15]

From an interview with Bill Walton. Dale Brown tried to answer that question for Pete. Worked off the running score, with distance being estimated, but probably as good as it can get, absent film.

“Amazing [thing] about Pete is … 44 points per game, in his career, for three straight years in an era with no 3-point line. Dale Brown, who coached LSU after Press and Pete were there, went back and charted all the games with the running score – Maravich free-throw, Maravich 22-foot jumper, Maravich lay-up – and he calculated that with the current college 3-point line rule at 19’9” Pete Maravich would have averaged 13 3-point makes per game, which would have given him a career average of 57.0 points per game under today’s rules! That guy was UN-BE-LIEVABLE! We love him, we miss him terribly, what a great man, what a great human being.”

Bill Walton

Walton: "John Stockton is one of the true marvels, not just of basketball, or in America, but in the history of Western Civilization!"
Tom Hammond: "Wow, that's a pretty strong statement. I guess I don't have a good handle on world history."
Walton: "Well Tom, that's because you didn't go to UCLA."

 

[Zelda Zonk]

1. Best single season Carmelo Anthony
2. Most important player in terms of building the program Pearl Washington
3. Best 4 year career it’s either Derrick Coleman or Sherman Douglas.
I personally would go with Douglas slightly over Coleman because great guard play matters more in college hoops.
4. Pre-Boeheim best player is obviously Dave Bing.

That's cool.

I think the way i was considering the list of "the best," it was kinda like if i had a fantasy draft or somesuch.

If you had to choose a player to build an SU team, who's your first pick? Disregarding how long that player might stay in college, since the eras were so different and winning a NC might make you less likely to stay longer...

 

[JustPherU]

From an interview with Bill Walton. Dale Brown tried to answer that question for Pete. Worked off the running score, with distance being estimated, but probably as good as it can get, absent film.

“Amazing [thing] about Pete is … 44 points per game, in his career, for three straight years in an era with no 3-point line. Dale Brown, who coached LSU after Press and Pete were there, went back and charted all the games with the running score – Maravich free-throw, Maravich 22-foot jumper, Maravich lay-up – and he calculated that with the current college 3-point line rule at 19’9” Pete Maravich would have averaged 13 3-point makes per game, which would have given him a career average of 57.0 points per game under today’s rules! That guy was UN-BE-LIEVABLE! We love him, we miss him terribly, what a great man, what a great human being.”

Bill Walton

Would have been totally different defense if they had the three point line back then. Teams let you shoot from twenty feet when they didn’t have the 3 pointer so I think you have to factor all that in before you can just say a guy would of averaged this or that.

 

[newmexicuse]

For me, DC was a little bigger. Played 2 spots. More blocked shots, better rebounder (very narrow) a bit better ball handler. Melo, better shooter and scorer (not always the same thing). Both of them were incredibly smart players and were selfishly unselfish, if that makes sense. They were comfortable carrying the team, but never to the point of freezing out others or not playing within the team structure. (Owens is probably a mix of the 2 of them, but his teams never quite achieved what one would expect.) I fell incredibly lucky to have watched (all of) them play for SU.
To see this list on the same message board where people are talking about how good our current players are is sobering.

I love DC, but the fact is Melo won the title and DC blew the FTs.

 

[Sherman20]

My order, beginning with what i actually saw:

Carmelo
Pearl / DC
Wallace / Billy Owens
GMac
Moten
Sherman
Warrick
CJ
Wes
Seikaly

There’s no way Moten or Gmac should be listed ahead of Sherman on any list of all-time SU greats. Sherm played on a team with huge stars like Coleman, Seikaly and Owens and still averaged more points per game than them as a sophomore and senior. He left school as the NCAA’s all time assists leader, even though he was Pearl’s backup as a freshman. I love Moten and GMac but Sherm was a two-time all American.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

Yeah, uh, it's Melo.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

There’s no way Moten or Gmac could be listed ahead of Sherman on any list of all-time SU greats. Sherm played on a team with huge stars like Coleman, Seikaly and Owens and still averaged more points per game than them as a sophomore and senior. He left school as the NCAA’s all time assists leader, even though he was Pearl’s backup as a freshman. I love Moten and GMac but Sherm was a two-time all American.

"There's no way"— no way?
Depends on what you value. Moten is still the all time points leader, isn't he? Just different criteria.

The thing about Sherman for me is that i don't remember him being very good as a freshman in his backup role, and i never liked him defensively.

I had Gmac ahead of him because GMac carried teams. As you noted, Sherman played with "huge stars" his entire career.

But, this isn't science... Perspectives and opinions. I could have 'slash lined' Gmac / Moten / and Sherman all lumped together but i had already done it on the previous two lines and thought that was already copping out...

 

[IthacaMatt]

For me, it's Derrick Coleman. Yes, Melo helped win us a title, but he was only here the one year.

DC was bigger than life, like a Patrick Ewing kind of Boss Dawg. People were legitimately afraid of him, and he never shied from a big game. We've had few like him, and none better.

 

[IthacaMatt]

My favorites

1. Coleman
2. Melo
3. Pearl
4. Wallace
5. Sherm
6. Hak
7. Jason Hart
8. Seikaly
9. Owens
10. Moten
11. MCW
12. Etan Thomas
13. Wes Johnson, Waiters, Rautins, Arinze - it gets hard to pick
14. Gmac
15. Stevie
16. Otis Hill
17. Autry
18. Luke Jackson
19. Z
20. Brandon Triche

So much fun over the years. I have a preference for big men who board and have post moves. Also prefer gritty guards, don't even need flash. Gotta have a few 6'6" slashers. Didn't really see Pearl (1 year before my time), so he gets an honorary spot. Also prefer the folks who led their team into Sweet 16s.

Hope Mintz climbs this list. Depending on team results and tenure, he could eventually crack the top 10.

Yeah, Wallace gets overlooked in these conversations too often. Billy Owens put up better regular season stats, but Wallace was a winner in the tournaments. His senior year, he was the best player in college basketball for the last couple months of the season. He was super-human.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I love DC, but the fact is Melo won the title and DC blew the FTs.

Don’t forget Howard Triche missed the front end just before DC

 

[Noexcuse]

A few players from the early to mid 70’s are conspicuously absent. A greatest “players” list should include Bill Smith, Greg Kohls, Jimmy Lee and Rudy Hackett too, imo.

 

[OrangeDW]

Hard to compare across eras and hard to compare guys you haven’t seen.

I lean Carmelo - national title here and top 10 scorer in NBA history.

Bing and Coleman battling for number 2.

Then Pearl and Sherm?

Then Owens.

I think that’s the clear top 6.

 

[sweetpea]

I love DC, but the fact is Melo won the title and DC blew the FTs.

That hurt. Triche missed the back end of one I think a possession earlier. I'll take DC's 19 boards.

 

[OrangeDW]

I love DC, but the fact is Melo won the title and DC blew the FTs.

Many may not remember but 2003 SU blew the FT’s too. Warrick for sure. Who missed the others? (I want to say Duany?)

We blocked the shot on the other end though.

 

[sweetpea]

"There's no way"— no way?
Depends on what you value. Moten is still the all time points leader, isn't he? Just different criteria.

The thing about Sherman for me is that i don't remember him being very good as a freshman in his backup role, and i never liked him defensively.

I had Gmac ahead of him because GMac carried teams. As you noted, Sherman played with "huge stars" his entire career.

But, this isn't science... Perspectives and opinions. I could have 'slash lined' Gmac / Moten / and Sherman all lumped together but i had already done it on the previous two lines and thought that was already copping out...

Pearl was in front of Sherman as he should have been. I'm sure if there was no Pearl, Sherman would have been great as a freshman too.

 

[OrangeDW]

"There's no way"— no way?
Depends on what you value. Moten is still the all time points leader, isn't he? Just different criteria.

The thing about Sherman for me is that i don't remember him being very good as a freshman in his backup role, and i never liked him defensively.

I had Gmac ahead of him because GMac carried teams. As you noted, Sherman played with "huge stars" his entire career.

But, this isn't science... Perspectives and opinions. I could have 'slash lined' Gmac / Moten / and Sherman all lumped together but i had already done it on the previous two lines and thought that was already copping out...

Do we take pro careers into account though? Or no?

The year after SU, Sherman was averaging 14 and 7 for the Heat, Moten was averaging 6 ppg off the bench for the Grizz and I honestly don’t know if Gerry was playing anywhere?

Frankly, that is the order I would rank them in too.

 

[br801]

Pearl was in front of Sherman as he should have been. I'm sure if there was no Pearl, Sherman would have been great as a freshman too.

Douglas was very good as a freshman. Playing about 11 minutes per game, his production across the board was very similar to what he would do in his next three seasons as a starter.

 

[IthacaMatt]

John Wallace had an 8-3 record in the NCAA tournament in 3 years. The losses his sophomore and junior years were both OT games - first to Missouri (Autry's insane 2nd half) and then Arkansas on the Moten timeout call.

For comparison purposes, Derrick Coleman and Stevie Thompson were 11-4 in the NCAAs. C.J. Fair and Brandon Triche both went 10-4 in the tournament for their careers.

Billy Owens was only 5-3 in the NCAAs for us, and only 4-3 in the Big East tournament, failing to win a title. Two finals losses to Georgetown and UConn, and then upset by Villanova in our first game at the Garden his Junior year, before the 1st round upset to Richmond in the NCAAs, the first time a 15 took down a 2 seed. The abrupt end to that 26-6 season when we were ranked 7th in the country was a bitter end to his career.

 

[OrangeDW]

John Wallace had an 8-3 record in the NCAA tournament in 3 years. The losses his sophomore and junior years were both OT games - first to Missouri (Autry's insane 2nd half) and then Arkansas on the Moten timeout call.

For comparison purposes, Derrick Coleman and Stevie Thompson were 11-4 in the NCAAs. C.J. Fair and Brandon Triche both went 10-4 in the tournament for their careers.

Billy Owens was only 5-3 in the NCAAs for us, and only 4-3 in the Big East tournament, failing to win a title. Two finals losses to Georgetown and UConn, and then upset by Villanova in our first game at the Garden his Junior year, before the 1st round upset to Richmond, the first time a 15 took down a 2 seed.

Some of that is circumstantial though? Wallace was very good at that point but was the 3rd best player in 94, and second best in 95.

Wallace had a senior Z coming through for him as a senior, Billy had a freshman/sophomore Michael Edwards in key minutes.

That ‘96 team, though not as talented overall, at least had 2 shooters on the wings and a solid PG? Not as loaded but better constructed than 90-91.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Do we take pro careers into account though? Or no?

The year after SU, Sherman was averaging 14 and 7 for the Heat, Moten was averaging 6 ppg off the bench for the Grizz and I honestly don’t know if Gerry was playing anywhere?

Frankly, that is the order I would rank them in too.

I didn’t take pro careers into account. Just the impact they had at SU.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

That hurt. Triche missed the back end of one I think a possession earlier. I'll take DC's 19 boards.

Also, Rony dribbled a breakaway dunk off his knee in the first half.