Better career?

[rrlbees]

kris
scoop
dion

all went to the elite 8, all had many wins, not even close

like others and i have said, is a players career determined by team success? i don't think that was the intent of the question.

 

[CorduroyG]

KJ
Hart
Flynn

dnic's frosh and soph years are the difference, kris was 6th man of the year his soph year. since dion was pretty much a non factor his frosh year and flynn was a main contributor from day 1, gotta go with flynn even though dion is a better player.

 

[LennX6]

Nichols had 6 games of 24+ points as a junior bro

He was so on during a game vs St. John's. It was in the same realm< almost > as GMac v. BYU.

 

[rrlbees]

one other point about hart...we will have to wait until 2100 to see if scoop is one of 25 players named to the all century team as hart was in 2000.

 

[billsin01]

Better career was Kris. Dnic was great his last 2 years and pretty much was worthless the first two.

I liked Nichols, so don't get me wrong, but it probably should be pointed out that even his junior year was a bit iffy. I mean, he was a prominent figure on a team JB made pretty clear wouldn't have won 10 f-ing games w/o a certain point guard.

 

[billsin01]

Dnic got to the basket just as much as Joseph and was a better ft shooter

You are insane -- Nichols shot 50% of his shots from 3 his senior year. KJ may not have been a dynamo at getting to the basket and I don't care if folks want to put Nichols ahead of him (b/c these are fun but pointless debates), but in terms of getting to the basket and finishing in transition, etc., it's KJ by a mile.

 

[jdubs30]

It's all relative with KrisJo and Nichols I guess. KrisJo played with a lot of really good players, so that's why he has more wins, and he was rarely the focus of the defense. Nichols got way more shots, but his last 2 years he literally had 0 talent around him, the D was all eyes on him for the most part, but he looked flat out dominant at times, whereas KrisJo never did.

I think Nichols was better on the boards.

 

[rrlbees]

You are insane -- Nichols shot 50% of his shots from 3 his senior year. KJ may not have been a dynamo at getting to the basket and I don't care if folks want to put Nichols ahead of him (b/c these are fun but pointless debates), but in terms of getting to the basket and finishing in transition, etc., it's KJ by a mile.

But DNic also shot better from 2 his senior year than did KJo.

 

[billsin01]

But DNic also shot better from 2 his senior year than did KJo.

That's cool but has nothing to do with creating shots. I loved Nichols, don't get me wrong, but his virtue was his range and consistency ... not putting the ball on the deck.

 

[billsin01]

I think those of you taking Scoop over Hart never really saw Hart play. Started every game his whole career (except 1 when he returned back late from Cali at Xmas break) and led the team in assists and steals all 4 years. Some of you are basing career just on wins and losses which is a team thing not an individual player thing.

Again, I think these rankings are pointless but it makes for fun discussion. I think it's strange, however, when people act like you couldn't make an argument for Scoop vs. Hart. You could point out that Scoop played with better teammates, which is true. But you could also point out that Hart accumulated a good chunk of his numbers by pure volume of minutes. I'm not sure he ever played fewer than 34 mpg.

Scoop, on the other hand, never played more than 32 mpg and was generally between 20-25. So the 90 assists he trails Hart by is negligible.

Scoop was also at 2:1 assist:TO ratio for THREE years. Hart, I believe, was close in one season and not above 1.5:1 in any of his other three years. Not to mention that, at the end of the day, you have to give scoop credit for being part of three teams that won 90+ games total and posted two of the best regular seasons we've ever seen (I know, I know, only the tournament matters to many, but doing what these teams did during the regular season is still pretty impressive).

Who's better? I don't know, but it's extremely easy to make an argument for Scoop (as it is for Hart).

EDIT: And the more I look at this, by the way, Hart spent his first two years hovering around 36-37% from the field (before finishing his junior and senior years at a 41% clip); struggled mightily from 3 for three of the his four years; and only approached 2:1 Assist:TO his freshman and senior seasons (though he never actually got to 2:1).

 

[ljmilman]

Kris' entire career was probably better, though it's reasonably close.

I wasn't a fan when Hart played, hell, I was 10. Based solely on stats, Hart.

Jonny. Waiters has more basketball ability and was built better for the beating he took. Jonny carried the team on his back for 2 years. He played an absurd amount of minutes, and without a real good jumper managed to be the key to the team's offense every single game.

 

[Victory Lap]

Nichols had more impressive individual games, stats-wise. KJo had good games but also brought team leadership. Overall, I give it to KJo.

Scoop, easy.

Dion = Flynn


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?uhrtd1

 

[rrlbees]

Scoop, easy

---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?uhrtd1

Easy? Hart was named to the SU 25 man all century team as well as named 1st team All BE. Not sure the answer could be Scoop easily. While the NBA doesn't answer the SU career question, Hart also played 9 years in the NBA.

Small tidbit if someone didn't know, Hart and Howard Triche are cousins.

 

[orangepassion]

I think Kjo is better than some are giving credit for.
Having said that, another advantage that Dnic had over him if I remember correctly is rebounding. This year's team could have used that.

A good related question to this would be: Which of each of these 3 sets of players would you rather have on this team?

 

[billsin01]

I think Kjo is better than some are giving credit for.
Having said that, another advantage that Dnic had over him if I remember correctly is rebounding. This year's team could have used that.

A good related question to this would be: Which of each of these 3 sets of players would you rather have on this team?

Nichols was a better rebounder but it feels a little like people arguing that manny ramirez was more valuable than david ortiz b/c manny was a two-way player. I mean, he did play LF but it wasn't exactly a calling card.

Joseph's rebs per minute:
10-11: .163
11-12: .146

Nichols rebs per minute
05-06: .176
06-07: .154

For reference CJ Fair -- a good but not great rebounder -- was at .205 this season.

As for which group you'd take, it's interesting but I'm not sure it's much question when you consider one group has two PGs but no shooting guard. If we could pick and choose? I guess I'd go Waiters as a given, Flynn ideally (but if it's between Hart adn Scoop, I'd go Scoop, I think), and Nichols as a senior. But outside of adding Flynn, I'm not sure any of those players really makes a huge difference on this team.

 

[rrlbees]

Nichols was a better rebounder but it feels a little like people arguing that manny ramirez was more valuable than david ortiz b/c manny was a two-way player. I mean, he did play LF but it wasn't exactly a calling card.

Joseph's rebs per minute:
10-11: .163
11-12: .146

Nichols rebs per minute
05-06: .176
06-07: .154

For reference CJ Fair -- a good but not great rebounder -- was at .205 this season.

As for which group you'd take, it's interesting but I'm not sure it's much question when you consider one group has two PGs but no shooting guard. If we could pick and choose? I guess I'd go Waiters as a given, Flynn ideally (but if it's between Hart adn Scoop, I'd go Scoop, I think), and Nichols as a senior. But outside of adding Flynn, I'm not sure any of those players really makes a huge difference on this team.

CJ played mostly at the 4 on offense and not on the perimeter. I'd expect him to have better rebounding numbers.

Sent from my DROIDX

 

[IthacaMatt]

Nichols was purely a shooter, couldn't create for himself. Thusly i think Joseph was a better basketball player.

Nichols was a much better defender and rebounder. Not even close. Kris could run the break, but that was about it.

 

[Millhouse]

Interesting thread.

Depends on how you define career...if its team success, the obvious answer are the three current players.

But if you look at it as trying to classify the all time greats...I think I take the other three, with the only close debate being dion and Flynn.

C'mon people...I love scoop, but harts career dwarfs scoops. Jason is the programs all time steals leader and is arguably the best on the ball defender we've ever had. It's him or Moss. He also had a terrific senior year that included a lot of key shots. It's an interesting debate only in that scoop and Jason each were loved a loathed by the fans, but people are dismissing harts body of work as a player.

I think a lot of people forget how many games dnic won for us by going unconscious his sr year. He was a better shooter, defender and rebounder than jojo. Joseph had better teammates. Hard for me to argue that jojo had a better career-his legacy is going to be his disappearing act this march.

Dion vs Flynn is closer. Could see an argument for both, but Flynn was a lottery pick and started both years he played and was more of a determining factor in more games. Both were a coaching nightmare at points in their career.

hart is better than scoop. he should've been a lot better though. that there's even a minimal debate is a credit to scoop and a criticism of hart.

i never thought a scoop led team could get past the sweet 16 so he'll always have that on Hart.

both of them scared the crap out of me in crunchtime. scoop made progress there and played with alot of guts against OSU. hart ended with a meltdown against MSU

 

[kingottoiii]

DNic vs KJo
Neither did much as Frosh. As a Soph KJo was waaay better than DNic. Unfortunately KJo peaked as a Soph. I think JR year was close but KJo wins slightly. Then as a SR DNic was waaaay better than KJo. We needed KJo to step up and be a guy who could carry the team. He never did. While DNic came through all year long. So it is very close but IMO what you do as a SR should have more weight so it goes to DNic.

Hart vs Scoop
I don't think this is close. Hart was a four year starter and team leader. Scoop had a lot of assists but that has a lot to do with the surrounding talent.

Flynn vs Waiters
Flynn was the heart of the team. Dion came off the bench and never started a game. Another easy one.

 

[HakAttack]

Nichols
Hart
Flynn

pretty cut and dry really.

 

[jdubs30]

Do we win a National Title this year if we had DNic instead of Kris?

 

[kingottoiii]

Do we win a National Title this year if we had DNic instead of Kris?

I think we likely do. But again this is about career and not just as SRs.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Joseph - All Big East, All American, Elite 8, 6th Man of the year
Hart - All Big East, career leader in steals, drafted
Flynn - BET MVP, lottery pick

 

[MCuse44]

Dnic - i thought he had a better all around game. light out, dominate on some nights.
Hart - dude was a great point guard. one of the players that define the program. most likely there would be no scoop without hart. Beoheim had to force him to stay committed!
JFlynn - i give him the tip based on attitude. i think dion might have more natural ability though.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Dnic
Hart
Flynn

that was an easy one.