Better career?

[rrlbees]

DNic vs KJo
Neither did much as Frosh. As a Soph KJo was waaay better than DNic. Unfortunately KJo peaked as a Soph. I think JR year was close but KJo wins slightly. Then as a SR DNic was waaaay better than KJo. We needed KJo to step up and be a guy who could carry the team. He never did. While DNic came through all year long. So it is very close but IMO what you do as a SR should have more weight so it goes to DNic.

Not sure how public this was and also I'm not sure DNic would have had as good a soph year as Kris (his best, he got to the line ALL the time), but DNic had some serious back issues his soph year. I'm not sure if he shouldn't have been medically redshirted.

 

[MikeSU02]

Dnic
Hart
Flynn

that was an easy one.

Ya, I can't believe how hotly debated this is. DNic, Hart and Flynn are easy choices.

 

[OttoMets]

While some might prefer Scoop because he's fresh on our minds, those who choose Hart seem to have forgotten his weaknesses. Scoop and Hart are like mirror images of each other.

Scoop's been a pretty uninspired defender for the last two years (save for the portions of this year when his minutes were limited); Hart is regarded as a great defender. It's no stretch, though, to say that Hart was offensively inept - we like to remember him for his Iron Man minutes and his tough defense, but how about his difficulty distributing the ball, his questionable shot selection, the infrequency with which that jump shot went in, and his ability to turn any open-court layup attempt into a roller coast ride.

Scoop's a C defender and a much better offensive point guard, both in terms of scoring and distributing.

Hart's an A defender and a pretty mediocre offensive point guard. I'd all it a wash.

 

[rrlbees]

While some might prefer Scoop because he's fresh on our minds, those who choose Hart seem to have forgotten his weaknesses. Scoop and Hart are like mirror images of each other.

Scoop's been a pretty uninspired defender for the last two years (save for the portions of this year when his minutes were limited); Hart is regarded as a great defender. It's no stretch, though, to say that Hart was offensively inept - we like to remember him for his Iron Man minutes and his tough defense, but how about his difficulty distributing the ball, his questionable shot selection, the infrequency with which that jump shot went in, and his ability to turn any open-court layup attempt into a roller coast ride.

Scoop's a C defender and a much better offensive point guard, both in terms of scoring and distributing.

Hart's an A defender and a pretty mediocre offensive point guard. I'd all it a wash.

While you have a point, IMO the gap as defenders is far far greater than the gap as an offensive player. Again, how does Hart make the all century team? Why did Scoop not make 1st team All BE? For his warts, Hart still led SU in assists all 4 of his seasons. Hart was sometimes too aggressive on the offensive end, but that mentality made him possibly the greatest SU defender ever.

 

[OttoMets]

While you have a point, IMO the gap as defenders is far far greater than the gap as an offensive player. Again, how does Hart make the all century team? Why did Scoop not make 1st team All BE? For his warts, Hart still led SU in assists all 4 of his seasons. Hart was sometimes too aggressive on the offensive end, but that mentality made him possibly the greatest SU defender ever.

Could be right that the gap is greater, since Hart is likely our greatest defender in the modern era (while Scoop isn't even the best offensive player of the decade).

Not crazy about the use of All-Century as support, though - wasn't Ryan Blackwell named to that team, too? I always thought that SU used the All-Century thing in 2000 as a way of honoring three nice seniors who'd had the historic 19-0 start and without whom the program really could have spiraled into the toilet after 1996.

 

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

Jumping in on this late and I'm surprised at some of the responses. I think people forgot things that happened years ago and place a higher premium on recent events.

DNich was a better player than KJo. KJo had earlier success but by the end, DNich was much better. He played great d, too, which KJO didn't. I can understand how some think it's a wash, however.

Scoop over Hart?? No way. Hart was a 4 year starter and probably the best defender we've ever had. Good, not great, on offense but still was consistent. Key player on those teams.

Flynn vs Dion - not even close. JF by far, not sure I need to say more...

 

[rrlbees]

Could be right that the gap is greater, since Hart is likely our greatest defender in the modern era (while Scoop isn't even the best offensive player of the decade).

Not crazy about the use of All-Century as support, though - wasn't Ryan Blackwell named to that team, too? I always thought that SU used the All-Century thing in 2000 as a way of honoring three nice seniors who'd had the historic 19-0 start and without whom the program really could have spiraled into the toilet after 1996.

Nah, Blackwell wasn't on it, nor should he have been. Here is the 25 man list.

• Rafael Addison 1983-1986
• Dave Bing 1964-1966
• Roosevelt Bouie 1977-1980
• Martin Byrnes 1975-1978
• Vincent Cohen 1955-1957
• Derrick Coleman 1987-1990
• Sherman Douglas 1986-1989
• Dennis DuVal 1970-1974
• Billy Gabor 1943-1946, 1947-1948
• Rudy Hackett 1973-1975
• Vic Hanson 1925-1927
• Jason Hart 1997-2000
• Gregory Kohls 1970-1972
• Jim Lee 1973-1975
• Lawrence Moten 1992-1995
• Louis Orr 1977-1980
• Billy Owens 1989-1991
• Leo Rautins 1981-1983
• Danny Schayes 1978-1981
• Joseph Schwartzer 1916-1918
• Rony Seikaly 1985-1988
• Etan Thomas 1997-2000
• Stephen Thompson 1987-1990
• John Wallace 1993-1996
• Dwayne "Pearl" Washington 1983-1986

 

[Madbiker]

Kris - DNic was awful his 1st 2 years, poor defensive player. KJ most wins in 4 years.
Scoop - Won games, made big plays. Win totals far better.
Flynn -Dion was not good his 1st year but left a far superior player than Flynn
But JF had 2 pretty good years vs. 1

 

[billsin01]

CJ played mostly at the 4 on offense and not on the perimeter. I'd expect him to have better rebounding numbers.

Sent from my DROIDX

OK, well, there's that. How about Southerland -- who everyone says can't rebound and people said floated around too much on the perimeter on offense? He was at .194. Really, the point is Nichols was not a dynamic rebounder and neither was Kris. If you want to call one better than the other, I guess it's OK but it makes no appreciable difference.

 

[rrlbees]

OK, well, there's that. How about Southerland -- who everyone says can't rebound and people said floated around too much on the perimeter on offense? He was at .194. Really, the point is Nichols was not a dynamic rebounder and neither was Kris. If you want to call one better than the other, I guess it's OK but it makes no appreciable difference.

I think Southerland more than most improved his game a lot this year. I like how he started rebounding the ball.

 

[billsin01]

I think Southerland more than most improved his game a lot this year. I like how he started rebounding the ball.

Wow. Me too, but this board spent 3/4 of the season disparaging his defense and rebounding. And while he's a solid player I don't think he's going to be put in the damone brown/rick jackson arena as a rebounder. So the point is that calling Nichols a "far better rebounder" than KJ is absurd. I'm not sure how else to put it and I haven't seen anyone offer an explanation other than simply stating an opinion as fact.

 

[billsin01]

While some might prefer Scoop because he's fresh on our minds, those who choose Hart seem to have forgotten his weaknesses. Scoop and Hart are like mirror images of each other.

Scoop's been a pretty uninspired defender for the last two years (save for the portions of this year when his minutes were limited); Hart is regarded as a great defender. It's no stretch, though, to say that Hart was offensively inept - we like to remember him for his Iron Man minutes and his tough defense, but how about his difficulty distributing the ball, his questionable shot selection, the infrequency with which that jump shot went in, and his ability to turn any open-court layup attempt into a roller coast ride.

Scoop's a C defender and a much better offensive point guard, both in terms of scoring and distributing.

Hart's an A defender and a pretty mediocre offensive point guard. I'd all it a wash.

There's a lot of good points here. i also would argue that while scoop may not have been a particularly great defender, he finished with a respectable steal total and played on three really good defensive teams.

But ultimately, yes, Hart was an elite defensive player. Where I think this becomes closer is when you consider that each of Hart's teams struggled offensively, his assist total for a four-year starter who had the ball in his hands all the time is pretty pedestrian and his shooting/fast break instincts were downright ugly.

Again, I think you could easily make a case for Hart having the better career and being the better player. I just think you could do the same for Scoop. I really think people underrate just how big a gap there is between those two offensively.

 

[billsin01]

Nichols was a much better defender and rebounder. Not even close. Kris could run the break, but that was about it.

Where are you getting this? Kris was clearly at his best on the run but he had a solid mid-range game, a pretty good jumper and could get to the basket on occasion (certainly more than guys like Shump and Nichols). And, again, where is the evidence to support the rebounding claim. Unless you have proof that I have a terrible memory and/or that I know nothing of basketball (both of which may be true), then I see absolutely no evidence of Nichols being a significantly better rebounder. Numbers may not tell the whole story, but they put Nichols and KJ roughly on par in that department.

 

[billsin01]

Scoop over Hart?? No way. Hart was a 4 year starter and probably the best defender we've ever had. Good, not great, on offense but still was consistent. Key player on those teams.

I don't know, "good" is a pretty kind way to describe Hart's offensive game:

-- Never an assist:TO of 2:1
-- Never shot over 41% from the field
-- Best year from three, by far, was a .366 season his junior year
-- Almost never pushed the tempo and struggled in fast break situations
-- All four of those cuse teams struggled to score the ball.

I like Hart and certainly think his defensive prowess, leadership and four-year improvement make him one of our better players. But he was average and no better offensively.

 

[OttoMets]

Nah, Blackwell wasn't on it, nor should he have been. Here is the 25 man list.

• Rafael Addison 1983-1986
• Dave Bing 1964-1966
• Roosevelt Bouie 1977-1980
• Martin Byrnes 1975-1978
• Vincent Cohen 1955-1957
• Derrick Coleman 1987-1990
• Sherman Douglas 1986-1989
• Dennis DuVal 1970-1974
• Billy Gabor 1943-1946, 1947-1948
• Rudy Hackett 1973-1975
• Vic Hanson 1925-1927
• Jason Hart 1997-2000
• Gregory Kohls 1970-1972
• Jim Lee 1973-1975
• Lawrence Moten 1992-1995
• Louis Orr 1977-1980
• Billy Owens 1989-1991
• Leo Rautins 1981-1983
• Danny Schayes 1978-1981
• Joseph Schwartzer 1916-1918
• Rony Seikaly 1985-1988
• Etan Thomas 1997-2000
• Stephen Thompson 1987-1990
• John Wallace 1993-1996
• Dwayne "Pearl" Washington 1983-1986

Thanks. Blackwell would've been a bit out of place with that group

 

[omgDaveSiock]

Scoop vs Hart...I guess Hart I mean there where times in Scoop's first 3 years where he single handedly lost games with decision making but I do love his ability to do the flipside and put us on his back and win games all and all he had a good career. Hart on the other hand was a guy you always knew what you were going to get very consistent solid on D as you can be in a zone and took care of the ball his offense weapons were very limited and at times could be a liability though. He's loved for his toughness and staying four years he made a career for himself on minimal talent but pure hard work. In general the guy who puts on the hard hat everyday is gonna be loved by fans but often overrated talent wise as well. Overall more consistent career definitely Hart not quite as naturally talented as scoop though.

Nichols vs Joseph.. Anyone saying that Nichols went to the bucket as well as Joseph is insane. Nichols was a catch and shoot guy on terrible teams. He was the go to guy for sure and got a million touches but I think saying he had a better career then Joseph is silly. Nichols would have been merely a role player on the teams we have had of late (understand isn't point of convo but worth mentioning) and yes he had a couple great years we weren't anywhere near the caliber of team we are today. I like Joseph here for sure and winning certainly counts on who had a better career, I mean how could it not? I don't think anyone would or could argue that Joseph wasn't much better then Nichols in their frosh and soph yrs respectively so just gonna add Joseph was the only member of the All Big east first team on what I believe is our best team ever Isn't that enough to win this convo?

Flynn vs Waiters.. Flynn had a better career no doubt won't even try to attempt a devils advocate. Debating who has more talent and is a better player is the only discussion here and I would certainly take Waiters side in that debate but as far as who had better Orange career this is not even close.

 

[kingottoiii]

I don't know, "good" is a pretty kind way to describe Hart's offensive game:

-- Never an assist:TO of 2:1
-- Never shot over 41% from the field
-- Best year from three, by far, was a .366 season his junior year
-- Almost never pushed the tempo and struggled in fast break situations
-- All four of those cuse teams struggled to score the ball.

I like Hart and certainly think his defensive prowess, leadership and four-year improvement make him one of our better players. But he was average and no better offensively.

In fairness look at the guys that Scoop was passing to vs Hart. Hell Hart had to play SG a bunch his SR year because sadly he was our best option. Those were the dark ages of SU BBall.