Blocking by the numbers

[IthacaMatt]

Case in point, our drive up 3 in the 4th after Purdue got their TD. That’s precisely the kind of situation where I expected our OL to be able to bulldoze a team into submission late in a game. Productive rushes by Tucker and Shrader as we burn clock and salt a game away.

Didn’t happen.

Yep, that moment nearly lost us the game. We had a 3 and out on some terrible play calls, IMO. Waaaay to conservative. About 2 1/2 minutes left, and all we needed was a first down.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Yeah I think we’re both right. He probably had more time than I’m thinking and the game was a weird mix of like 3 different games in one. Beginning of the game we couldn’t do anything.

Well, he had only 3 completions in the first half, vs. ten in the second half, but they still broke up the pocket throughout the game. So I think we both agree.

 

[IthacaMatt]

It is difficult to grade if you dont know who’s responsibility who‘s is for each play. Just like how JB rails against people who think they know who is playing well in his Zone or not.

I think outsiders can absolutely grade certain plays as they are pretty straight forward but I would argue the OL is the single hardest position to grade because you don’t know the assignments.

While I agree that it's difficult to grade offensive line play, I think the PFF system (at least what I read about it ...) makes it pretty clear. You have to win your assignment vs. the guy opposite you.

 

[PhatOrange]

It's not scheme, it's personal. Pretty clearly.

This group is exponentially better than what we rolled out 2 years ago, But I think we need a couple of improvements at a few spots, and things will really take off. But the current group, will not great, is more than serviceable.

How do you know it’s not scheme with a new OC who has a reputation of not being a run first OC?

He called a lot of Tucker straight up the gut yesterday. Surprising really but Tucker also struggled getting outside. His bread and butter seems to be outside stretch plays which is behind Ellis and Bleich.

I think it’s a bit of both scheme and personnel. Just not sure we’ll every really upgrade the line from what we have out there.

 

[rrlbees]

It is difficult to grade if you dont know who’s responsibility who‘s is for each play. Just like how JB rails against people who think they know who is playing well in his Zone or not.

I think outsiders can absolutely grade certain plays as they are pretty straight forward but I would argue the OL is the single hardest position to grade because you don’t know the assignments.

Well when #1 is #1 whether you thinks it’s east or hard to grade, it’s really hard to say he is the problem. For the season, look at the grades, then look way way down for a lineman.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Was wondering the same. There was one cut he made that was amazing. But it wasn’t by design. He just adjusted on his own. He really excels on those.

I also think they are purposefully using him as a receiver a lot more to take advantage of his speed. I also think it helps showcase more skills for the nfl. I wonder if they’re doing that to help his pro chances too.

I think they have shown that he can be very effective catching the ball out of the backfield already. I think our O Line has to step up a bit. Purdue was the toughest defense we've played so far. But if this is going to be a special year, the O Line, Tucker and the D Line have to play a bit better.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The OL is huge and experienced. Great things to have. Probably one of the better OLs we have seen here in the last 10 years.

But...there is a reason why the staff was still looking to add late in the portal season and I don't think that reason was necessarily depth related. There is also a reason why Davis is playing RT and not his natural spot on the interior. It makes what Anae, Shrader, and Tucker have been able to do even more impressive, IMO.

I have been pleasantly surprised with the pass pro to date, but we have to keep getting better in all phases. Purdue's defense was very good, but we will face better in the games to come.

Nice, even evaluation. Good post.

 

[IthacaMatt]

A lot of time the guy opposite you isn’t your assignment, maybe the guard was supposed to come seal as you chip and slide to second level. Also, Are you supposed to seal him.. if so to which side… or just get push… or let them get push, but not too much (for an outside run or screen). What about when the guy opposite you stunts… do you chase or stay home… if you have two guys stunting towards you then who do you pick, the inside guy (usually) or do you know you have help there from the guard or RB/FB.

money3189 could do a much better job describing this than me probably.

I understand that. I was speaking metaphorically. For instance, I recall a play where the left tackle was not blocking the guy opposite him, but was cutting inside for a double team block on an interior lineman. For that play, it's pretty easy to see who the guy is supposed to block. I would say that most plays are like that, unless a defense simply blows up the play.

So you make your grade on (1) who the guy is responsible to block, (2) did he win the assignment?, (3) Did the other guy win the assignment? [I think it's 1 point either way, per play, IIRC), and then (4) did the guy do something extraordinary (good or bad), and then there is a bonus point for that.

I'm not a hard-core advanced stats head, but I think that rational grading schemes have been developed for line play that are well employed these days. We never had metrics like this 20 years ago. At least not as fans.

 

[Dcuse]

Three games in and I’ve been a bit disappointed in our OL. Thought they’d be better given their experience. Hoping they show some improvement starting this week.

We are averaging 38 points a game and haven’t scored less than 31. I’m sorry but QBs and RBs do not do that by themselves. Run blocking sucked yesterday. For those that said pass protection was under par yesterday...get yourselves tested for cataracts.

 

[Cusefan69]

Yet Vett graded the highest in run blocking

I get it Bees. From what it looks like though Tucker is meeting resistance for many plays right at the line. Very little holes seem to be getting opened. How they grade out is relative so Vett may be grading 1st for Syracuse but if his grade ranks him 110th in NCAA then his 1st slot for Syracuse doesn't mean that much. Are you able to share his grade and where it ranks overall?

 

[IthacaMatt]

We are averaging 38 points a game and haven’t scored less than 31. I’m sorry but QBs and RBs do not do that by themselves. Run blocking sucked yesterday. For those that said pass protection was under par yesterday...get yourselves tested for cataracts.

He only hit 50% of his passes (a bit under, actually), when he hit 80% in the first 2 games, and was chased out of the pocket quite a bit. The line had a Dungey-like game, where the QB's improvisations kept the chains moving when the line couldn't hold up, or receivers couldn't get open.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

We are averaging 38 points a game and haven’t scored less than 31. I’m sorry but QBs and RBs do not do that by themselves. Run blocking sucked yesterday. For those that said pass protection was under par yesterday...get yourselves tested for cataracts.

I guess Tucker isn't any good then because he is getting only 3.85 ypc this season vs 5.85 ypc last year vs FBS teams. Our opponents went into every game last year looking to shut him down.

 

[Dcuse]

He only hit 50% of his passes (a bit under, actually), when he hit 80% in the first 2 games, and was chased out of the pocket quite a bit. The line had a Dungey-like game, where the QB's improvisations kept the chains moving when the line couldn't hold up, or receivers couldn't get open.

Check the tape if your not sure. He had time to look at his 3rd option a number of times. WRs not getting separation and Garret missing a couple of open ones contributed to poor 3 quarters. Again, the run blocking was abysmal- the pass protection was more than adequate.

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

See I thought they did well and we had open guys. I think Garrett held ball too long with open guys. I was counting and he almost always had 4 sec or more. He is better when he has to throw it.

I was scolded twice by my 15 year old for angrily yelling “Throw the ball!!!” at the top of my lungs to GS. It’s science, pass protection was adequate using this metric

 

[sutomcat]

The question I have with Bleich is if we tried him at Center during camp, so that he wouldn't have to move so much laterally, what happened to that?

They tried several combos during camp. The players they went with had the most experience and were the players most thought they would choose.

The OL has been okay this year. The pass blocking is VASTLY improved. They had problems with the penalties in week 1 with the UL players making sounds and the refs not enforcing the rules. And they struggled getting holes opened yesterday. But Purdue has a legit defense. They played 8 in the box all game and had their CBs in press coverage even at the end of the game.

When teams do that, it is almost impossible to run the ball. It took us a while to take advantage but we did eventually. Just in time as it turns out….

 

[hoopsupstate]

We scored 32 points and didn’t play all that well on offense. I’ll take this every game.

 

[RandomGuy]

I understand that. I was speaking metaphorically. For instance, I recall a play where the left tackle was not blocking the guy opposite him, but was cutting inside for a double team block on an interior lineman. For that play, it's pretty easy to see who the guy is supposed to block. I would say that most plays are like that, unless a defense simply blows up the play.

So you make your grade on (1) who the guy is responsible to block, (2) did he win the assignment?, (3) Did the other guy win the assignment? [I think it's 1 point either way, per play, IIRC), and then (4) did the guy do something extraordinary (good or bad), and then there is a bonus point for that.

I'm not a hard-core advanced stats head, but I think that rational grading schemes have been developed for line play that are well employed these days. We never had metrics like this 20 years ago. At least not as fans.

Pff is on a -2/+2 scale. A zero is, you did your job. Equates to a 50. +2 is total domination(100), -2 is an utter defeat. (0). 50 is effective, but you want to win, so 60 and above start getting the green light. Its football, so you need to win more plays than you lose. 60 and up is preferred.

Former NFL line coach said pff had more than 90%(high 90's) of the oline calls/grade accurate. It's not perfect, but its a very useful tool .

 

[RandomGuy]

I get it Bees. From what it looks like though Tucker is meeting resistance for many plays right at the line. Very little holes seem to be getting opened. How they grade out is relative so Vett may be grading 1st for Syracuse but if his grade ranks him 110th in NCAA then his 1st slot for Syracuse doesn't mean that much. Are you able to share his grade and where it ranks overall?

It seperates each Oline position. None of our guys are currently grading great- but they've been fairly effective. I think only Berg is in the top 100. (Out of 561)

Our other guys fall just below the middle, in their position.

Nunbers will change as minimum snaps increase. At that point, it will be a more accurate depiction of how they compare.

 

[Cusefan69]

It seperates each Oline position. None of our guys are currently grading great- but they've been fairly effective. I think only Berg is in the top 100. (Out of 561)

Our other guys fall just below the middle, in their position.

Nunbers will change as minimum snaps increase. At that point, it will be a more accurate depiction of how they compare.

Thanks man. I tried looking myself but it looks like you need certain access. Certainly pass pro has been alright and when it hasn’t Garrets feet help.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Check the tape if your not sure. He had time to look at his 3rd option a number of times. WRs not getting separation and Garret missing a couple of open ones contributed to poor 3 quarters. Again, the run blocking was abysmal- the pass protection was more than adequate.

I talked about this with another person in this thread. My opinion is that he had more time in the 2nd half, when they held in an extra blocker or two for protection. That part was effective; he had more time. But he had fewer guys in the pattern, and they weren't getting open, which is why he had to go to third reads.

In the first half, though, he only had 6 attempts and 3 completions. So he clearly didn't have much time to get any passes off.

 

[IthacaMatt]

How do you know it’s not scheme with a new OC who has a reputation of not being a run first OC?

He called a lot of Tucker straight up the gut yesterday. Surprising really but Tucker also struggled getting outside. His bread and butter seems to be outside stretch plays which is behind Ellis and Bleich.

I think it’s a bit of both scheme and personnel. Just not sure we’ll every really upgrade the line from what we have out there.

I would like to have seen more counter plays running the ball, and less of that dipsey-doo shtt that Anae pulled on 2 or 3 plays. The running game was WAY too predictable. That one good run for Tucker was one of those counters, I believe, starting left, then cutting right, and making another good cut at the 2nd level to take it outside. It was only the S or LB coming across that took him out, and prevented that from being a 30 or 40 yard play. But that was the only time I saw that all game.

 

[qdawgg]

We are averaging 38 points a game and haven’t scored less than 31. I’m sorry but QBs and RBs do not do that by themselves. Run blocking sucked yesterday. For those that said pass protection was under par yesterday...get yourselves tested for cataracts.

Purely looking at the score of a game instead of how you got there is an interesting way of evaluating how different players or units performed in that game.

 

[Oswego93]

Is Mang #81? Whoever IS #81 did a nice turnstile block on the guy who launched into Shrader on the TD pass with :07 left.

Too similar to the series of events at the end of the Va Tech game last year where a guard was blocking an invisible defender while a visible one ran right by him to lay out Shrader.

 

[rrlbees]

I get it Bees. From what it looks like though Tucker is meeting resistance for many plays right at the line. Very little holes seem to be getting opened. How they grade out is relative so Vett may be grading 1st for Syracuse but if his grade ranks him 110th in NCAA then his 1st slot for Syracuse doesn't mean that much. Are you able to share his grade and where it ranks overall?

Without sharing the exact number, I kind of addressed it in the OP. Vett and Berg were both at the low end of average while the others were below average. Overall as a team we were below average.

 

[Dcuse]

I talked about this with another person in this thread. My opinion is that he had more time in the 2nd half, when they held in an extra blocker or two for protection. That part was effective; he had more time. But he had fewer guys in the pattern, and they weren't getting open, which is why he had to go to third reads.

In the first half, though, he only had 6 attempts and 3 completions. So he clearly didn't have much time to get any passes off.

Clearly, you didn’t watch the same game as me. He had way more than 6 attempts to pass.