Bobby Acosta new TE coach...

[rrlbees]

You must have missed last season entirely. West could not get separation most of the year, especially vs ACC CB's. Broyld had a ton of bubble screens thrown to him - blocking was bad and while shifty - he didn't do much to warrant the amount of attempts. Estime did a much nicer job towards the end if the season - with Broyld as the blocker. Now - think back to the record breaking duo of Sales and Lemon? They were way better than last years corp. Better than Taj and Williams (if only due to injury and off field issues). The WR's were so bad we played the only guy who could beat someone on the outside: our starting safety.

And Nassib was way better too.

 

[All4SU]

Yes, but before all those coaches got their latest college job, HCDM came from the Saints (OC), Pete Carroll came from the Patriots (HC), and Saban came from the Dolphins (HC). See a difference? .

Yes I do. You're saying these new SU coaches have to put in their time before they get hired by The Bills, or The Seahawks, or as HC of Alabama. So we agree then.

 

[baggerbob]

Position coaches from a BCS program aren't going to make a lateral move to Syracuse, no matter how much they are paid.

 

[SUFan44]

The QB wasn't any better until the end of the season. It's a chicken or egg thing. People forget just how bad Hunt was. Just like those who assume we beat PSU with Hunt. How do they know. And just like WR, we've brought in a boatload of supposed talented QBs the past 2 years.

Our WR position and their talent level has nothing to do with the QB's talent level.

 

[SUFan44]

And Nassib was way better too.

What is your point? Doesn't absolve the WR position from their issues. You're just trying to stir the pot. Give it a rest.

 

[SUFan44]

Your unde

You're underselling West as a deep threat, and Ashton converted from a RB. He is a dangerous back in a bubble/screen. That alone is a potentially productive combo. Throw in the other 3-4 receivers that we have, and we are far from the bottom of the barrel.

Frankly, last year aside, the last time we had a better WR corp was '07-08 when we had Taj Smith and Muke Williams, but that only lasted about 3 games before Taj went down to injury.

Our passing game had problems beyond the receivers' control. They can't be held accountable for that.

We must be watching entirely different teams.

 

[rrlbees]

Our WR position and their talent level has nothing to do with the QB's talent level.

They both played a role with each other.

Neither helped the other. Ergo, the WRs weren't as bad as appeared. I know from my seat I often saw WRs open and the ball not delivered. Or sometimes when it was, it missed by 5 yards short or wide. But then again I can make the same post where the WRs didn't help the QB.

 

[SUFan44]

They both played a role with each other.

Neither helped the other. Ergo, the WRs weren't as bad as appeared. I know from my seat I often saw WRs open and the ball not delivered. Or sometimes when it was, it missed by 5 yards short or wide. But then again I can make the same post where the WRs didn't help the QB.

That doesn't change the fact that it was one of the least talented groups in major college football.

 

[GoSU96]

I guess I should say "season vets who have experienced success at a high (BCS) level."

I get that we aren't going to raid Ohio Sate, but there are a number of bad BCS teams with some bright spots. I wod rather raid them for their bright spots. We honestly aren't a bad job. We have facilities, money, a name, and a presence in the south, Midwest, and northeast. Heck, given the placement of our previous assistant coaches, we are also reasonably high profile.

The ONLY way that SU is going to get BCS experienced coaches at the same position is if they are unemployed. We aren't hiring away guys for laterals, ever.

The only guys with BCS jobs that we can pull is if they are getting promotions.

Are you really suggesting that SU should have hired a current OL coach to take the same job here? LOL!.

Here is pool that SU is going to hire position coaches,

Non-BCS D1, lower divisions, and the unemployed. That's it. Other than that it has to be by promotion.

 

[anomander]

Your unde

You're underselling West as a deep threat, and Ashton converted from a RB. He is a dangerous back in a bubble/screen. That alone is a potentially productive combo. Throw in the other 3-4 receivers that we have, and we are far from the bottom of the barrel.

Frankly, last year aside, the last time we had a better WR corp was '07-08 when we had Taj Smith and Muke Williams, but that only lasted about 3 games before Taj went down to injury.

Our passing game had problems beyond the receivers' control. They can't be held accountable for that.

i'm amazed someone can come away thinking we had a solid WR core last season. Although I disagree with you on the coaching point you seem to know what you are talking about too. I focused on the WR's for several games, there was a pretty big percentage of plays where nobody created any separation. Most of the time Hunt didn't have anywhere to go with the ball. I do admit the talent level increased when Estime and Cornelius were given time, but Cornelius replaced West so what does that tell you.

 

[rrlbees]

i'm amazed someone can come away thinking we had a solid WR core last season. Although I disagree with you on the coaching point you seem to know what you are talking about too. I focused on the WR's for several games, there was a pretty big percentage of plays where nobody created any separation. Most of the time Hunt didn't have anywhere to go with the ball. I do admit the talent level increased when Estime and Cornelius were given time, but Cornelius replaced West so what does that tell you.

I often focused on the WRs too. What you say is partially true. There however was many times they were open and either weren't seen or missed. Seems just like the season where everyone wanted to give a pass to the QB when he was horrible. Takes two to tangle. Neither helped the other but our issues in the passing game for most of the season was shared by both positions.

 

[rrlbees]

That doesn't change the fact that it was one of the least talented groups in major college football.

Yes it does.

 

[GoSU96]

That doesn't change the fact that it was one of the least talented groups in major college football.

That is such an exaggeration.

The problem with the pass game was as much on the OC and scheme as it was on the QB's or WR's. I'd say 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.

In 2012 Marrone and Hackett played three guys and they didn't suddenly become man beaters, they were schemed open because there was finally a good run game. Audibles, option plays, and heavy dose of play action opened up the pass game.

Last year there was little connection and use of the pass and run games together to leverage the strength of the run game. Very little play action, which would have helped the QB and WR's.

 

[Marroniac]

In 2012 Marrone and Hackett played three guys and they didn't suddenly become man beaters, they were schemed open because there was finally a good run game. Audibles, option plays, and heavy dose of play action opened up the pass game.

The play to win @ Mizzou is the perfect example. Lemon was so wide open, any WR on our roster last year could have made that catch.

 

[SUFan44]

That is such an exaggeration.

The problem with the pass game was as much on the OC and scheme as it was on the QB's or WR's. I'd say 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.

In 2012 Marrone and Hackett played three guys and they didn't suddenly become man beaters, they were schemed open because there was finally a good run game. Audibles, option plays, and heavy dose of play action opened up the pass game.

Last year there was little connection and use of the pass and run games together to leverage the strength of the run game. Very little play action, which would have helped the QB and WR's.

I actually agree with you. All I'm saying is I'm pretty sure we had the worst WR corps in the ACC. And I'd venture a guess that not many Big XII, Pac 10 or SEC schools had worse.

And 'bees, I get what you are saying but we are talking about WR talent, are we not? Not scheme - which helps mask lack of talent. And QB talent, which would help maximize the talent level but wouldn't change the fact that we had one of the worst corps in a P5 conference.

(I would also add that Cornelius' inclusion helped, and Estime got better as the year went on. But the first 3/4 of the year with West, Clark, Broyld receiving the majority of the snaps was brutal.)

 

[CuseOnly]

If nobod

You may very well be right, but I'm sick of hearing that as an excuse. Since 2005, we've built a football-only weigh room, converted Manley into an IPF, resurfaced 2 practice fields, renovated locker rooms, a training room, football study areas, player lounges, an athletic cafeteria, and the inside of the Carrier Dome. We were also darn near getting a $500+ million brand new stadium, and that very well might still happen before the end of 2015 (i.e. within the decade of my time fame). That's just the facilities that impact football. I find it amazing that an athletic dept. that is willing to dump that much money into a program is also not willing to shell out a couple hundred thousand dollars more to get proven assistant coaches. Honestly, we're contemplating investing more than half a billion dollars into the program on top of the $40 million (estimate) in facilities alone that we've invested in the last 8-9 years! Given how much assistant coaches matter, what's another couple hundred thousand dollars?

As I see it, loyalty to friends aside, HCSS is something special...or at least he was as a DC. However, I don't think that the team was well coached last year. The coaching wasn't awful. It was just mostly average, maybe slightly better than average. We won the games that we should have won, but we didn't win any of the games where we weren't supposed to win, and we usually didn't keep our losses close. The play calling on offense was uninspired (but hopefully that's improving due to more coaching experience and the players' increased familiarity with the system), and the defensive game planning was very bad until it suddenly got better (when I think HCSS took over). Beyond play calling, off the top of my head, I can think of 3 different games where the other team got a 50+ yard pass (or at least it felt like it) because our secondary wasn't watching the game due to either disorganization or infighting. Furthermore, although I haven't looked at our penalty yardage, I can pretty much guarantee that we were at the bottom of the ACC (or at least very close to it). I understand that some of the penalties is due to our aggressive style of play while on defense, but many of those penalties happened while we were on offense. Heck, Mackey got a false start...and he's our center. I had honestly never seen that happen until we did it!

To be fair, our coaching staff did have some great moments, so it isn't all bad. Like I said, I think that they're mostly average, but slightly on the good side of average. That's good for between 3rd and 6th place in the best division of the 3rd best conference every year. There's no shame in that, but I want something more.

You can say that Marrone had friends in BCS programs from his days at TN, whereas HCSS wasn't at either Stanford or Michigan long enough to make the same kind of elite connections, but I guess my response would be that in the world of college coaching, few things make friends faster than money. Since we have the money, we should use it.

Here's our season:

*We lost to Pitt on an unlucky play.
*We squarely lost to PSU (but stayed competitive - however, had their top WR played the entire game, it might not have stayed competitive).
*We were blown out by GT, FSU, Clemson, and NW.
*We blew out Tulane and Wagner.
*We convincingly beat WF, NCSU, and UMD, even though the score might not have indicated it.
*We beat BC and Minn. on lucky plays.

I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill because it was our coach's first year, but this forum could very easily be a riot right now. Frankly, we have a long, long way to go before we turn this into a 9-10 win season.

SO you are saying that spending $40 million dollars on the football program since 2005 is good and that we are now equal to our peers? Tells me you should go back and look at our peer schools and what they have spent in the last 5 and I think that you would be dumbfounded as to how many multiples of $40 million that they have spent on their programs.

As far as coaching goes, almost every big name coach that I can think of has roots in the MAC. I love that young coaches are coming from the MAC to SU.

I think that you have an over-inflated view of what SU actually is and what the capabilities are as well.

 

[BlazeOrange]

Yes, but before all those coaches got their latest college job, HCDM came from the Saints (OC), Pete Carroll came from the Patriots (HC), and Saban came from the Dolphins (HC). See a difference? Coaches start at the bottom and work their way up. We have a mentality that we're on the bottom and thus have to give people the big break. I say that's not the case. We should let other schools take the risks, then raid them when it works. IMHO, we have a defeatist mentality and that needs to end. Grob is gone and HCSS isn't playing ball in the MAC.

HCSS was a great hire and can be something special if he surrounds himself with similar talent.

But before those coaches got their position level jobs at P5 schools:

Pete Carrol - went from grad assistant (4 years at Pacific and one at Arkansas) to Secondary Coach at Iowa State. He then moved up to the same position at Ohio State and parlayed that into a defensive coordinator gig at NC State. Went back to Pacific the next year, then went pro for the first time.;

Nick Saban - went from grad assistant (3 years at Kent State) to Defensive Assistant at Kent State for one year to the same position at SU. He then took 1-2 year stints at basically the same position at WVU, Ohio State, and Navy before landing a coordinator job at Michigan State. Then he started bouncing back and forth from the pros.;

Doug Marrone - went from one year stints at Cortland (TE coach), Coast Guard (OL coach), and Northeastern (OL coach) to TE coach at Georgia Tech. He later got promoted to OL coach, then made lateral moves to Georgia and Tennessee before going pro.

So I'd say we're getting coaches with better resumes than these three had at their first P5 school. There were more "lateral" moves than I thought I'd see going into this Google exercise. Some are easily understood upgrades to higher profile factory schools. I don't know the reasoning for others - may be some HC changes involved.

Some others at the positions we just filled:
Urban Meyer - hired as TE coach at Ohio State with only one year of high school coaching experience.
Dabo Swinney - played at Alabame, then 3 seasons as grad assistant, then hired as WR/TE coach
Les Miles - hired as OL coach at Colorado with only two years as grad assistant at Michigan on his resume

 

[TheCusian]

And Nassib was way better too.

Not sure it's real fair to compare Hunt (first year starter with new OC, HC) and Nassib (3 year starter, all with same OC and WR).

Of course some is on Hunt and McDonald. And luckily Hunt is way shifter than Nassib ever was. Same OC and WR - Nassib is likely out with a horrific back injury and horrible stats to boot.

 

[chakka3421]

Guys - there is only one word I can think of regarding Shafer's coaching hire strategy:

"Loyalty"

 

[anomander]

I often focused on the WRs too. What you say is partially true. There however was many times they were open and either weren't seen or missed. Seems just like the season where everyone wanted to give a pass to the QB when he was horrible. Takes two to tangle. Neither helped the other but our issues in the passing game for most of the season was shared by both positions.

I don't think it's people wanting to give him a pass it's just the reality we were faced with. For a 1st year starter he had to learn a brand new offense, and imo deal with a below average receiving corp. We must have been seeing different things because I saw our guys getting mostly blanketed, and when they did get open an above average number of drops (hello Ashton). I am actually surprised he was able to bounce back and have such a strong closing to the season. Sometimes a young qb can stunt their development when they are forced to tuck it and run so many times. What do you credit his performance the final 3 games of the season on? I felt Estime and Cornelius getting inserted into the game plan elevated the overall talent level of the WR's. Seemed like we had a lot more guys open during the end of the season then beginning and middle. I'm not denying that i am sure it was a combination of things, be it McDonald improving, Hunt improving, and the wr's improving, but imo Hunt shared far less of the blame then the others when we struggling. Looking back Hunt had a slightly better completion % as Nassib as a JUIOR, and 5% better then Nassib's SOPHMORE season (both seasons Nassib avg 6.5ypa, Hunt 6ypa). If he is given some weapons at WR I think he can be a really good qb for us. I know I am excited to see his development next season.

 

[anomander]

And Nassib was way better too.

It's tough to do objectively because we all know how good Nassib turned out to be, but if I try to judge solely off of their Sophmore seasons I would have a real hard time choosing which qb I would want to lead my team the final 2 years of their career.

 

[rrlbees]

It's tough to do objectively because we all know how good Nassib turned out to be, but if I try to judge solely off of their Sophmore seasons I would have a real hard time choosing which qb I would want to lead my team the final 2 years of their career.

I'm not comparing anyone to any season. I know Hunt was a 1st year starter. But the only point was the QB was as much an issue as the WRs as to why our passing game was so bad most if the year. Doesn't matter what year they were. The bad passing game was a team effort.

 

[SUFan44]

I'm not comparing anyone to any season. I know Hunt was a 1st year starter. But the only point was the QB was as much an issue as the WRs as to why our passing game was so bad most if the year. Doesn't matter what year they were. The bad passing game was a team effort.

Where do you think our WR talent level ranked in the ACC last year?

 

[nzm136]

The ONLY way that SU is going to get BCS experienced coaches at the same position is if they are unemployed. We aren't hiring away guys for laterals, ever.

The only guys with BCS jobs that we can pull is if they are getting promotions.

Are you really suggesting that SU should have hired a current OL coach to take the same job here? LOL!.

Here is pool that SU is going to hire position coaches,

Non-BCS D1, lower divisions, and the unemployed. That's it. Other than that it has to be by promotion.

This isn't true. There's nothing keeping anyone at schools like Purdue, Indiana, Iowa State, and any other of the bottom level P5 schools over Syracuse.

 

[nzm136]

If nobod


SO you are saying that spending $40 million dollars on the football program since 2005 is good and that we are now equal to our peers? Tells me you should go back and look at our peer schools and what they have spent in the last 5 and I think that you would be dumbfounded as to how many multiples of $40 million that they have spent on their programs.

As far as coaching goes, almost every big name coach that I can think of has roots in the MAC. I love that young coaches are coming from the MAC to SU.

I think that you have an over-inflated view of what SU actually is and what the capabilities are as well.

First off, our facilities are fine. There have been numerous threads in this forum to discuss just that. Some schools (i.e. UCF) have thrown down more in the last 5 years, but they started with less. There really aren't many (if any) middle of the road P5 schools with *tangibly* better facilities than us. In all honesty, we're even better than *some* of the elite schools. We have thrown down cash. That's undeniable.

If you read my previous comments, you will notice that I never said anything discouraging about having MAC background. My point is that I don't want a coaching staff with nothing but a MAC-level background. The reason why I don't want that is because there's a very good chance that they will give you MAC-level results. As I said previously, I'm OK with hiring a coach here and there from the MAC/Sun Belt/FCS/DIII and so on. The connections and young blood aren't bad. They can actually make valuable contributions that other, more seasoned coached can't. That's undeniable. However, as stated earlier in this thread, those hires need to be balanced with seasoned coaches with proven track records at major institutions.

And finally, I think that you are underselling SU. We are very unique in that we have a strong presence in 3 regions of the country (4 B1G rivalries, a NE location, and ACC membership gives us a strong presence in the Midwest, Northeast, and the Southeast) , our coaches sell a quality product (facilities, academics, history, and so on), our fan base is rational (i.e. you won't get fired for getting 7-8 wins/yr), and we are located next to a bunch of high profile NFL teams (who have been hiring SU coaches left and right recently) and the sports reporting capital of the world (CT/NYC, NJ, PA). That's actually a really solid package. Does that beat out Alabama? No. However, does it beat out most mid level P5schools? Yes, absolutely.