Can't call it a 2-3 zone anymore

[CuseFaninVT]

We play a 4-1 now. Our forwards have moved so far out to contest the wing 3s that the zone looks completely different. Which is just one of the reasons we rebound so badly.

 

[We Are Syracuse]

Exactly. Been saying it for so long. No way can this team play this zone and expect to rebound well. They have gotten absolutely DESTROYED on the glass this year and that's a huge reason why the defense has been so bad. Play 30 seconds of defense, and then let up a rebound and then be forced to guard again for another 20 seconds.

Something needs to change. Personally, I've had it with the zone.

 

[Ghost]

And St Johns is still raining down threes upon us.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

And St Johns is still raining down threes upon us.

It is mystifying.

Cooney is just so bad right now. On one inbound play in the first half, he was essentially playing a forward position right behind our forward contesting the inbound from under the basket. That left the Italian kid wide open for a 3. I'm sure Joseph got reamed for that one, but he was covering at least 2 other guys up top.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Lets face it, it's as simple as this.

when we dont have long armed wing athletes our zone is pedestrian. You cant make up for it with position or effort. There's a reason why few teams run it as a primary defense. You have to literally recruit for it. Our wing players have been getting smaller and smaller. Even our centers are shrinking both in terms of size and ability. Lydon, who plays the 5, really should be our shortest forward if you want the zone to actually work.

 

[We Are Syracuse]

I just don't understand why nothing changes. Like guys, you can change thins when you see something that isn't going to work. Either play a completely packed in 2-3 and give up the fact that teams will hit 3s, or switch the defense. THIS DEFENSE IS NOT WORKING. Getting out rebounded by 15+ will not win you games.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

I just don't understand why nothing changes. Like guys, you can change thins when you see something that isn't going to work. Either play a completely packed in 2-3 and give up the fact that teams will hit 3s, or switch the defense. THIS DEFENSE IS NOT WORKING. Getting out rebounded by 15+ will not win you games.

We are our own worst enemy. In spite of the horrible defense we left 15 points on the floor by missing gimme free throws. That's why we lost. We aren't good enough to blow people out. We are good enough to win when we convert our chances.

 

[newmexicuse]

it is exactly a game like this when the Zone is being shredded that we need to be able to go m2m to at least mix things up. I just do not understand the inflexability even after all these years and all of the millions of threads on this topic. Color me stupid.

 

[upperdeck]

if we make the easy shots we win by 10-12 every team makes 50% from the 3 so they must be easy shots which is why we shot 20% i guess. we rebound poorly because we have a bunch of bad re-bounders. changing to man isnt going to make them better

 

[Shark58]

is it a 4-1 with man-to-man principles?

 

[Madbiker]

When Coleman is in the middle it like a 2-2 zone. I like DC2 and respect all the hard work he did just to get back on the court. But good grief his defense is abysmal. He is very slow and can't cover the necessary ground. When he has to get out to the FT line on a pick and pop he is always late and he can't recover to a pass down low or to the baseline.

 

[pfister1]

Does anyone really think Hop has the flexibility (read green light) to switch to man to man right now in JB's absence, if he wanted to? Is what we are seeing an indicator that Hop will be as married to the 2-3 as JB, or just that his hands are tied because he's really just subbing for JB right now and is supposed to run the team within the constraints established by JB?

 

[br801]

it is exactly a game like this when the Zone is being shredded that we need to be able to go m2m to at least mix things up. I just do not understand the inflexability even after all these years and all of the millions of threads on this topic. Color me stupid.

You believe "the millions of threads on this topic" should somehow have shaped actual coaching decisions? That is quite amusing.

 

[newmexicuse]

You believe "the millions of threads on this topic" should somehow have shaped actual coaching decisions? That is quite amusing.

The millions of threads should not have shaped actual coaching decisions, but common sense and game situations should shape them.

 

[We Are Syracuse]

Lets face it, it's as simple as this.

when we dont have long armed wing athletes our zone is pedestrian. You cant make up for it with position or effort. There's a reason why few teams run it as a primary defense. You have to literally recruit for it. Our wing players have been getting smaller and smaller. Even our centers are shrinking both in terms of size and ability. Lydon, who plays the 5, really should be our shortest forward if you want the zone to actually work.

PERFECT POST. Well done. The athletes that the zone requires to be ran efficiently is something we do not remotely have. We do not have Onuaku, Wes Johnson, Kris Joseph, and Rick Jackson. Or Fab Melo, Rak, CJ Fair, Southerland, and Kris Joseph, and Keita.

We have a center who cant jump over the lines on the court. For surely cant move well enough to contest a pass at the high post. And when we do have a center who is mobile enough to guard the high post, he happens to weigh 190 pounds and gets abused on the glass. If you do not have the athletes or personnel to run it, it will get destroyed at this level which it has. Teams look very comfortable and pick it apart. Then when they happen to miss the shot, they just stick two big bodies in the paint to attack the glass. As a result, they get the rebound most of the time because our 6'6 and 6'8 wings are 20 feet away from the hoop when the shot goes up, leaving our weakest matchup position forced to make a play against two guys twice his size. Just a BAD recipe.

Note to add: Richardson is WAY too weak to be playing the back. I feel like Silent G did a way better job playing back there than he has.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

PERFECT POST. Well done. The athletes that the zone requires to be ran efficiently is something we do not remotely have. We do not have Onuaku, Wes Johnson, Kris Joseph, and Rick Jackson. Or Fab Melo, Rak, CJ Fair, Southerland, and Kris Joseph, and Keita.

We have a center who cant jump over the lines on the court. For surely cant move well enough to contest a pass at the high post. And when we do have a center who is mobile enough to guard the high post, he happens to weigh 190 pounds and gets abused on the glass. If you do not have the athletes or personnel to run it, it will get destroyed at this level which it has. Teams look very comfortable and pick it apart. Then when they happen to miss the shot, they just stick two big bodies in the paint to attack the glass. As a result, they get the rebound most of the time because our 6'6 and 6'8 wings are 20 feet away from the hoop when the shot goes up, leaving our weakest matchup position forced to make a play against two guys twice his size. Just a BAD recipe.

Note to add: Richardson is WAY too weak to be playing the back. I feel like Silent G did a way better job playing back there than he has.

I seriously think the jig may be up vs the zone. Teams have seen it for far too long and its been pretty much figured out. Unless we can force a turnover, we cant get stops, because even if the opponents miss, they have a pretty damn good chance of getting the rebound. No matter who is playing the zone, defensively its almost always a 2 vs 1 situation on our defensive boards. You really need a superlative rebounder down there at the 4 and 5 to even give you a chance.

 

[rrlbees]

Going into this game SU was holding opponents to 30% shooting from 3. That's pretty good. And overall we were holding teams to 38% which is also good. SJU got wildly hot.

 

[orange79]

Going into this game SU was holding opponents to 30% shooting from 3. That's pretty good. And overall we were holding teams to 38% which is also good. SJU got wildly hot.

Facts are for losers.

 

[retro44]

Exactly. Been saying it for so long. No way can this team play this zone and expect to rebound well. They have gotten absolutely DESTROYED on the glass this year and that's a huge reason why the defense has been so bad. Play 30 seconds of defense, and then let up a rebound and then be forced to guard again for another 20 seconds.

Something needs to change. Personally, I've had it with the zone.

Boeheim just last week or so admitted that the zone will make it easier for other teams to rebound against us. Kind of a flawed logic when GT. crushed by an almost 2-1 margin and we stayed in the zone through out the whole game.

We just might break an ACC record this year for a team on the short end of rebound margins.

 

[Melancer46]

I seriously think the jig may be up vs the zone. Teams have seen it for far too long and its been pretty much figured out. Unless we can force a turnover, we cant get stops, because even if the opponents miss, they have a pretty damn good chance of getting the rebound. No matter who is playing the zone, defensively its almost always a 2 vs 1 situation on our defensive boards. You really need a superlative rebounder down there at the 4 and 5 to even give you a chance.

- Been a top 20 defense every year since 2010.

- A team gets crazy hot for one game.

- Jig is up; the zone simply doesn't work anymore.

You do realize that Syracuse has been far better defensively the last 5+ years than they've basically ever been before, right? We're in the top 1-5% of teams defensively on a consistent basis. Having the flexibility to occasionally go to man-to-man would be great, but there's nothing at all to suggest that the zone doesn't work anymore.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Going into this game SU was holding opponents to 30% shooting from 3. That's pretty good. And overall we were holding teams to 38% which is also good. SJU got wildly hot.

what difference do percentages make when the opposition puts up 20 more shots?

 

[STEVEHOLT]

- Been a top 20 defense every year since 2010.

- A team gets crazy hot for one game.

- Jig is up; the zone simply doesn't work anymore.

You do realize that Syracuse has been far better defensively the last 5+ years than they've basically ever been before, right? We're in the top 1-5% of teams defensively on a consistent basis. Having the flexibility to occasionally go to man-to-man would be great, but there's nothing at all to suggest that the zone doesn't work anymore.

you need to adjust defensive numbers for pace of play. People think Golden States defense is one of the worst due to points allowed when in fact they are the best.

our pace of play is pretty slow.

 

[Melancer46]

you need to adjust defensive numbers for pace of play. People think Golden States defense is one of the worst due to points allowed when in fact they are the best.

our pace of play is pretty slow.

The top 20 defensive numbers were adjusted for pace of play.

 

[rrlbees]

what difference do percentages make when the opposition puts up 20 more shots?

Exactly. Our defense has done well before SJU in defending shots. Last I looked we were 35th in the country. We've been better but that's not bad. BUT, if the other is getting a lot more shots, the defense percentage becomes less telling. More shots means we either turn it over a lot more than the other team (isn't happening) or we're getting killed on the boards (happening). So my contention is our issue isn't defense but rebounding.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Exactly. Our defense has done well before SJU in defending shots. Last I looked we were 35th in the country. We've been better but that's not bad. BUT, if the other is getting a lot more shots, the defense percentage becomes less telling. More shots means we either turn it over a lot more than the other team (isn't happening) or we're getting killed on the boards (happening). So my contention is our issue isn't defense but rebounding.

Agreed. And part of my reason for starting this thread is saying that playing the zone in what I see as a 4-1 will not allow for effective rebounding. It's our center against all comers because our forwards are leaking too far (in my mind). They contest, and the person they are contesting is taking a shot or crashing the boards past them.

One of the reasons this is bothering me is that I see our forwards coming out without a shooter there. They are anticipating too much. Even G does this. He's got the footspeed to get back, but guys like Mal and Trob don't.