Carleton Thoughts

[General20]

Here is everything you need to know about the Carleton game if you did not get a chance to watch it.

The basics:

Carleton came out and punched SU in the mouth (not so much with scoring, but with very solid defense and rebounding) and Syracuse folded like a cheap suit. Carleton got out to a 13-3 lead, and was pretty much in control for about 65% of the game, dealing with the few runs SU made very well.

Syracuse was down 9 at half.

Carleton pushed the lead up to 15, and that is when Boeheim started playing the game like it was a regular season game that mattered, and the players followed suit.

Syracuse's D promptly shut Carleton down, and its O scored just enough to win in overtime.

Who is Carleton anyway:

Well, they lost to the national champion Louisville Cardinals by a single point last year and they brought everybody back this year. If I remember correctly, their starting line up included three 5 year seniors and two 4 year seniors.

They destroyed TCU and then destroyed Wisconsin in their last two games.

They are the John Wooden UCLA of Canada, winning 9 of the last 11 championships including a few undefeated seasons. They are something ridiculous like 194-8 over the last five years.

They also have no practice restrictions like NCAA teams do. The team stays together all year, practices, and plays top notch competition all year long.

That is all the good stuff. The bad is they are undersized, they are not athletic by USA D1 standards, and they are not a particularly good shooting team. They are an D1 quality team, but they do not have the quality of a major conference D1 team. They are your typical savvy veteran mid-major team.

The details:

Carleton has their act together on defense. They made very few mistakes, and made Syracuse earn everything. Syracuse took a long while to adjust (they had gotten anything they wanted in the first few games). By the time Syracuse did, Carleton had a big lead.

Carleton did press the whole game, but it was a soft press and that part of their defense did not give Syracuse any trouble. Ennis, Gbinije, and even Cooney handled it well.

On the other end of the court, Carleton had no idea how to attack SU's zone - and even if they knew how to attack it they probably didn't have the players to pull it off. You can always tell when a team is beaten by the zone when they resort to shooting 3's on every possession. Carleton shot a whopping TWENTY 3 pointers in the first half alone!

Luckily for them, Syracuse does not have their act together yet on D. Mind you, there is no way they could with so many new players and so little practice time. Syracuse was leaving Carleton players open for shots without being forced to do so by dribble penetration or good passing. They just missed a ton of assignments. If Syracuse played this team during the season when its players knew how to react in the zone, this game would not have been remotely close.

Carleton only shot a little under 30% from three early. If they had made 40 or 50% of their wide open 3 point shots they would have put the game away early, but as I said before they are not a really good shooting team.

Carleton's early lead came from shutting SU down completely on offense, and dominating the boards early (this turned to domination in SU's favor when Keita got in the game).

By the time Carleton got up by 15, Boeheim had trimmed his rotation to Ennis, Cooney, Gbinije, Grant, Keita.

Fair was playing hurt, and while he did hit a couple shots, he was clearly not himself. Early in the second half he reaggrivated his injury and never came back in. I don't expect to see him tomorrow.

Keita and Grant shut Carleton down inside. Pretty much everything they tried to do inside - and they only had one or two plays that didn't involve chucking up covered threes - resulted in a blocked shot.

Syracuse's offense came primarily from two places. Ennis creating, and making things happen off the bounce, and Grant posting up the 6'4ish player who was trying to guard him.

I thought Ennis was the best player in the game, even though his shooting percentage was probably not very good.

Grant hit a lot of free throws down the stretch to give Syracuse the win.

Important things I noticed:

The most important thing I noticed is how terrible Syracuse played with Coleman at center. They were really like a completely different team. With Coleman in the game, Carleton dominated the boards, and was able to score inside. With Keita or Rak in the game Syracuse dominated the boards and everything Carleton tried to put up in the paint got sent back out.

Right now Keita is our best center. I thought Rak played very well, but man, Canadian refs hate him!

The other important thing I noticed is that Syracuse looked terrible in transition. Even though their D was able to flummox and pretty well shut down Carleton they got very few points out of it. That is very un-syracuse-like, and bears keeping an eye on when the real season gets under way.

Impressions:

Ennis continues to be a revelation. He looks to be a very good player.

Cooney is separating himself from Gbinije right now. Gbinije looks to be a useful bench player who can do a lot of things, but right now he is invisible a lot of the time. Cooney didn't shoot a great percentage in this game, but he did make things happen, both from shooting deep, and off the bounce, and defensively too. I can see him being deadly if he can get his three point shot down, and then pair that up with the blow by and pull up mid range shot you can tell he is working on.

Fair and Grant will be the strength of our team.

Keita is clearly the best center we have, Christmas does seem improved, Coleman looks like a liability right now.

BJ Johnson did not play much, but I thought he looked great in the limited PT he had. BJ played all his minutes at the 3. I was hoping he would get a little bit of run at the 2. I think that Boeheim wanted to test his ball handlers against Carleton's press and that is why he kept Johnson at the back of the zone, but I really think BJ's best chance to see the court this year will be at the 2. Keep an eye on him, he could become a key player before the season is over.

Patterson hardly played at all. He has had the yips this entire time, however I really like the way he plays. Its normal for a freshman to have the yips in his first few games, but that will go away. If he ever can put some O to go along with his D, which is already noticeably good, watch out.

Overall I think Syracuse is looking mighty good for how early in the season it is. They expended a lot of energy tonight, and might have a very difficult time in their game tomorrow. Look for Johnson and Patterson to play a lot more. There is some skill and talent on this team. The important thing will be finding production from the 2 all year long.

 

[Orangezoo]

good recap - appreciate all the thoughts. I have to wonder will DC2 ever get there. I hate seeing a local product not make it - also he seems like a great kid. He just doesn't seem capable of mentally getting himself prepared. His struggles somewhat remind of Mcneil in that he just doesnt look comfortable out there. He certainly could serve as just a rebounder but he needs to learn to make complete moves and not have so many hitches , dribbles , extra head fakes while looking at the ground etc.

 

[SoBeCuse]

good recap - appreciate all the thoughts. I have to wonder will DC2 ever get there. I hate seeing a local product not make it - also he seems like a great kid. He just doesn't seem capable of mentally getting himself prepared. His struggles somewhat remind of Mcneil in that he just doesnt look comfortable out there. He certainly could serve as just a rebounder but he needs to learn to make complete moves and not have so many hitches , dribbles , extra head fakes while looking at the ground etc.

Some good points but we would kill for some McNeil-like defense out there from DC2. Or some monster dunks. McNeil was underrated, imo.

 

[bevosu]

I think a clue as to who the best center on the team is (at this moment)...who has JB had in the game late when the game is close or on the line?

JB thinks he supplies the steadiest D and the best center play. Hustles and plays pretty smart basketball.

It dates back to late last year.

 

[Orangezoo]

Some good points but we would kill for some McNeil-like defense out there from DC2. Or some monster dunks. McNeil was underrated, imo.

oh no doubt- i was mainly referencing offensively. since dc2 was an offensive big man and recruited that way- the fact he has offered little in that dept while being a weakness on D.. it is dissapointing.

 

[ROCcuse]

On the other end of the court, Carleton had no idea how to attack SU's zone - and even if they knew how to attack it they probably didn't have the players to pull it off. You can always tell when a team is beaten by the zone when they resort to shooting 3's on every possession. Carleton shot a whopping TWENTY 3 pointers in the first half alone!

Luckily for them, Syracuse does not have their act together yet on D. Mind you, there is no way they could with so many new players and so little practice time. Syracuse was leaving Carleton players open for shots without being forced to do so by dribble penetration or good passing. They just missed a ton of assignments. If Syracuse played this team during the season when its players knew how to react in the zone, this game would not have been remotely close

Disagree with the bolded. Ball movement IMO is a great way to attack the zone, which I thought they did fairly well at times. Also, I felt like we fell hard for most of their shot fakes which allowed for dribble penetration and also aided ball movement when their players made the right decisions. I noticed that leading to many of their open 3 pointers.

Agree with many of your other points though. +1 tee. I will definitely try to catch the replay tomorrow.

 

[hoopsupstate]

This team is once again going to be offensively challenged.

 

[orangejunkie]

interesing comparison of Gbinije and Cooney. Both will contribute big minutes this year. Gbinije appears to be smoother and maybe better overall skills. Cooney has that unique ability to hit big shots from deep. I think that Boeheim will go all season with the hot hand and what the game circumstances dictate. I think they will be SG by committee.

As to the centers, you have to root for a guy like Coleman. He seems to really put forth the effort but lacks the athleticism of our recent big men. Struggles to elevate and seems slow and methodical. Has lost weight but it hasn't translated to more explosiveness. I thought when he was recruited he would be a better version of Arinze. Now I'm not so sure. Arinze had amazing foot work and polished scoring moves that Coleman hasn't shown. Don't think it's the coaching either as some have suggested. Teaching basketball skills is not rocket science...

 

[General20]

interesing comparison of Gbinije and Cooney. Both will contribute big minutes this year. Gbinije appears to be smoother and maybe better overall skills. Cooney has that unique ability to hit big shots from deep. I think that Boeheim will go all season with the hot hand and what the game circumstances dictate. I think they will be SG by committee.

As to the centers, you have to root for a guy like Coleman. He seems to really put forth the effort but lacks the athleticism of our recent big men. Struggles to elevate and seems slow and methodical. Has lost weight but it hasn't translated to more explosiveness. I thought when he was recruited he would be a better version of Arinze. Now I'm not so sure. Arinze had amazing foot work and polished scoring moves that Coleman hasn't shown. Don't think it's the coaching either as some have suggested. Teaching basketball skills is not rocket science...

I agree with you on Coleman. I had visions during the off-season of Coleman and Keita combining to make a kind of thunder and lightning duo, where Boeheim could put Coleman in to abuse poor defensive centers, and Keita could do all the little things he did to get us to the final 4 last year.

Its a long way until March, so I'm not ready to totally write off Coleman (or anybody else) yet, but Coleman has a lot of catching up to do right now.

 

[Shenexon]

I agree with you on Coleman. I had visions during the off-season of Coleman and Keita combining to make a kind of thunder and lightning duo, where Boeheim could put Coleman in to abuse poor defensive centers, and Keita could do all the little things he did to get us to the final 4 last year.

Its a long way until March, so I'm not ready to totally write off Coleman (or anybody else) yet, but Coleman has a lot of catching up to do right now.

I think it's difficult to draw many conclusions from this series of games. The team is new together and has a long way to go. It was great just to see a glimpse of what's coming and for the team to get game experience, especially for the new guys. Players, coaches, and fans all got their blood pressure elevated and psyched for the fall. The players clearly see they have a lot of work to do which is a great thing. While there are a number of concerns, there were lots of good things as well. I especially feel good about Ennis. He's ready to lead us. It was a great opportunity for the coaches to evaluate liabilities and they got to see their players under stress. Carleton is an experienced team and though we had to go to overtime to win, the kids pulled it out.

 

[General20]

I think it's difficult to draw many conclusions from this series of games. The team is new together and has a long way to go. It was great just to see a glimpse of what's coming and for the team to get game experience, especially for the new guys. Players, coaches, and fans all got their blood pressure elevated and psyched for the fall. The players clearly see they have a lot of work to do which is a great thing. While there are a number of concerns, there were lots of good things as well. I especially feel good about Ennis. He's ready to lead us. It was a great opportunity for the coaches to evaluate liabilities and they got to see their players under stress. Carleton is an experienced team and though we had to go to overtime to win, the kids pulled it out.

Things change over the course of a season and you are right its way too early to make any definitive judgments. But my speculations have changed a bit because of this trip.

1) I see SU's lack of transition offense as a concern.

2) I thought (maybe hoped) Keita and Coleman would be our center combo. Now I see Keita as option A, and Rak as option B.

3) I thought Gbinije would be our starting shooting guard, now I think Cooney will be our starting shooting guard.

4) I was impressed by all three freshmen.

 

[SkanSU]

First I will make a patently obvious observation. This was SU's 3rd game in 3 nights with limited (1 week) team practice. While the first 2 games really didnt stretch toomuch effort, the travel; the 3 games, etc. The kids have to be tired and achy. Put on top of that they were playing the best college team in Canada (9/11 NCs) and an experienced team that plays and practices together all year ... SU did a helluva job!! Add to that SU's star player (CJ) was playing injured and then reinjured himself on that kids foot!!

Centers: Keita is our rock; our stability at the 5. Rak played much better. DCII? Dont know whats going on there.
Forwards: CJ...CJ...CJ!!! Grant is looking sooooooo good. BJ... I do love him. He is going to be good. He has a good shooting touch. G on the forward ... he hustles and works hard. He is going to be good ... great team player.
Guards: TC showed his shot last night... and came through in tight spots. Almost Rautinish. TE ... no comment needed. Someone commented on his shots. Hes a pg... and is a damn good one. Buss relegated to way off the bench. That will be his role until he gets his game together.

This team has such achingly great potential. Cant wait for the real season. One more game

 

[reedny]

Things change over the course of a season and you are right its way too early to make any definitive judgments. But my speculations have changed a bit because of this trip.

1) I see SU's lack of transition offense as a concern.

2) I thought (maybe hoped) Keita and Coleman would be our center combo. Now I see Keita as option A, and Rak as option B.

3) I thought Gbinije would be our starting shooting guard, now I think Cooney will be our starting shooting guard.

4) I was impressed by all three freshmen.

Have to agree with you here, and JB said as much after the game. Whereas (last year) he had to be patient with Rak/DC2. This year ... it's no more Mr. Nice Guy. Either produce or sit.

Defensively, DC2 is either not understanding the help rotations or can't move his feet fast enough, or both. He's become a serious liability on D. There is no reason he should have given up position as often as he did against a front line the size of Carleton's. And he doesn't have the elevation to block shots like Rak or Keita. While I do think DC2 has proven to be effective on the offensive glass as a PF, Grant is just as good a rebounder and defender inside and is a walking mismatch on offense.

The nice thing about Keita/Rak splitting time in the middle is that Grant gets more minutes at the 4. I think JG/CJ and either Keita or Rak in the middle will be one of the best forward combinations in the ACC.

In the backcourt ... I'm just not feeling TC. It's very early. And I know he's the only D-ready outside scorer we have. But I love MG's poise and handle. His size is a big advantage on D, he makes good decisions ... just wish he could shoot it a little better. However, once BJ figures out his role on D and gets his sea legs ... he might be eating Trevor's lunch.

 

[IthacaMatt]

interesing comparison of Gbinije and Cooney. Both will contribute big minutes this year. Gbinije appears to be smoother and maybe better overall skills. Cooney has that unique ability to hit big shots from deep. I think that Boeheim will go all season with the hot hand and what the game circumstances dictate. I think they will be SG by committee.

As to the centers, you have to root for a guy like Coleman. He seems to really put forth the effort but lacks the athleticism of our recent big men. Struggles to elevate and seems slow and methodical. Has lost weight but it hasn't translated to more explosiveness. I thought when he was recruited he would be a better version of Arinze. Now I'm not so sure. Arinze had amazing foot work and polished scoring moves that Coleman hasn't shown. Don't think it's the coaching either as some have suggested. Teaching basketball skills is not rocket science...

If it's not coaching, then why do none of our bigs know how to execute a simple drop step with their back to the basket? I mean, it's unbelievable. You can teach a 10 year old the drop step, and after that, it's just a matter of repetition. Catch, pivot, bank shot from 4 feet. Catch, pivot, bank shot from 4 feet. Do it for 30 minutes, and then change sides of the lane, and pivot the other way. And of course the counter move to the drop step is the jump hook, pivoting toward the middle of the floor instead of to the baseline. This is something every big man should know how to do by the time he's in 1oth grade, if actually works at his game and just doesn't play pick up all the time.

 

[Shenexon]

Things change over the course of a season and you are right its way too early to make any definitive judgments. But my speculations have changed a bit because of this trip.

1) I see SU's lack of transition offense as a concern.

2) I thought (maybe hoped) Keita and Coleman would be our center combo. Now I see Keita as option A, and Rak as option B.

3) I thought Gbinije would be our starting shooting guard, now I think Cooney will be our starting shooting guard.

4) I was impressed by all three freshmen.

I think it was a wonderful thing to see the team before the coaches worked with them as a group a whole lot. Seeing the team in August just whets the appetite for November. Most of us don't see the team before significant practice time and it provides perspective as to what the coaches start with.

I'm hoping the transition game is something we'll see greatly improved as the team gels. We have gifted athletes.

Coleman is kind of perplexing as is Rak. They both have been around for a while and I had hoped they'd be ready to dominate in the paint, but they haven't shown that so far. I really like Baye, but there will be games he will struggle.

I don't know what to think about Cooney & Gbinije yet. I hear good things about Cooney but he seems to get frazzled.

The best thing is we got to see the potential in our talented players. The worst thing was we got to see how raw they are as well. The coaches have a lot of work to do.

 

[LennX6]

Some good points but we would kill for some McNeil-like defense out there from DC2. Or some monster dunks. McNeil was underrated, imo.

McNeill was a "lummox" until the Pitt game that he won with a free throw. That boost in psyche kicked him up a notch, though, not a AO out there, he was a solid defensive force and had many more positive plays than negative.

 

[LennX6]

interesing comparison of Gbinije and Cooney. Both will contribute big minutes this year. Gbinije appears to be smoother and maybe better overall skills. Cooney has that unique ability to hit big shots from deep. I think that Boeheim will go all season with the hot hand and what the game circumstances dictate. I think they will be SG by committee.

As to the centers, you have to root for a guy like Coleman. He seems to really put forth the effort but lacks the athleticism of our recent big men. Struggles to elevate and seems slow and methodical. Has lost weight but it hasn't translated to more explosiveness. I thought when he was recruited he would be a better version of Arinze. Now I'm not so sure. Arinze had amazing foot work and polished scoring moves that Coleman hasn't shown. Don't think it's the coaching either as some have suggested. Teaching basketball skills is not rocket science...

I'll put some caveats out there for Coleman. He was injured as little as 5 mos ago. Is that a factor? He does look much better physically than he did a year ago, I think sublimally we may be trying to anticipate a Fab-type upgrade to his game , as occured with Fab when he dropped a continent.

 

[jordoo]

What I have learned over these three games is:
That unless something drastic changes by november DC2 and Rak will be competing for the backup center minutes especially if Roberson can defend and rebound. I still hold some hope that DC2 can be an offensive force but it looks doubtful and Rak is better than him on defense and rebounding.

I'm confident that Cooney will shoot well enough to be a legit offensive weapon and will develope the rest of his offensive game because of it. He did dribble aimlessley too much but he didn't really turn it over and its early.

BJ has a chance to play at the 2 and maybe a bit at the three when we need shooting.

Ennis, CJ and Grant will be the strngth of this team.

 

[pfister1]

Things to keep in mind.

The team hasn't practiced together, so while individuals may have improved individual elements of their game, I don't think its fair to expect to see improvement over the end of last year in more team oriented things such as positioning on defense in the zone and rotations within the zone etc.

I think this may be true of the transition game as well. While we would like to think any group of athletic players should be able to get out in transition I think a fair amount of this ability comes from working together as a unit and will come. Not to mention Fair was playing at a reduced athletic capacity.

Carleton doesn't have practice restrictions, so they are probably playing at a level that more closely approximate where they'll be during their season. I think if we played them in February or March we would absolutely destroy them.

 

[OrangeJEM]

I will just point out too, it has been 3 games in 3 days in the early season. These guys are definitely not in top physical shape quite yet, and fatigue will effect the big guys sooner (Coleman and Rak) specifically.

 

[SoBeCuse]

What I have learned over these three games is:
That unless something drastic changes by november DC2 and Rak will be competing for the backup center minutes especially if Roberson can defend and rebound. I still hold some hope that DC2 can be an offensive force but it looks doubtful and Rak is better than him on defense and rebounding.

I'm confident that Cooney will shoot well enough to be a legit offensive weapon and will develope the rest of his offensive game because of it. He did dribble aimlessley too much but he didn't really turn it over and its early.

BJ has a chance to play at the 2 and maybe a bit at the three when we need shooting.

Ennis, CJ and Grant will be the strngth of this team.

Yeah, pretty much agree. As many pointed out yesterday and have been saying; the playing 3 on 5 on offense can't continue. We'll be scoring 50-60-ish points all year which will not be good. I'm cautiously optimistic that Cooney will be serviceable from a shooting standpoint and really hope Roberson is good enough in all areas to warrant playing time. Even if all the starts align, I do think we will need his potential contributions on offense. I don't want to sit through maalox mashers where the defense is doing everything they can but our offense can't score 60.

 

[pfister1]

Yeah, pretty much agree. As many pointed out yesterday and have been saying; the playing 3 on 5 on offense can't continue. We'll be scoring 50-60-ish points all year which will not be good. I'm cautiously optimistic that Cooney will be serviceable from a shooting standpoint and really hope Roberson is good enough in all areas to warrant playing time. Even if all the starts align, I do think we will need his potential contributions on offense. I don't want to sit through maalox mashers where the defense is doing everything they can but our offense can't score 60.

This is really a stylistic preference as you note in your last sentence. Because we played a lot of 3 on 5 on offense last season and scored in the 50 - 60 point range in some pretty big games and we made it to the final four. So can we do that and be successful? If the defense is good enough, yes..... and from my perspective there is no reason to believe that it will not be.

Now do I enjoy that style as much as one where we get up and down the court and play a more offensively minded game. Not really. But I also much prefer ending my season that last weekend of March/Fist weekend of April than earlier. So I'll take whatever style of play gets us to that point.

 

[SoBeCuse]

This is really a stylistic preference as you note in your last sentence. Because we played a lot of 3 on 5 on offense last season and scored in the 50 - 60 point range in some pretty big games and we made it to the final four. So can we do that and be successful? If the defense is good enough, yes..... and from my perspective there is no reason to believe that it will not be.

Now do I enjoy that style as much as one where we get up and down the court and play a more offensively minded game. Not really. But I also much prefer ending my season that last weekend of March/Fist weekend of April than earlier. So I'll take whatever style of play gets us to that point.

I think just playing that way decreases your chances to go far in the Tournament. You get an 'unlucky' draw unlike last year and it's an uphill battle. We were lucky in some of those Tourney games that on those days the teams we played were SO inept in handling a zone for whatever reasons. I personally think Duke or Arizona last year, and if we had played Louisville again somewhere in the Tourney would've had easier times forcing us to keep up the scoring. I also think, albeit unfamiliar teams, that the teams in the ACC have some better skill players and are more equipped to handle our zone than some of the recent Big East teams. We'll need to keep up the scoring, imo. The ACC games supposedly flow more (I don't really buy that) but we're going to have just as much trouble scoring there as anywhere else if the 3 or 4 vs 5 continues. Just my two cents.

 

[pfister1]

I think just playing that way decreases your chances to go far in the Tournament. You get an 'unlucky' draw unlike last year and it's an uphill battle. We were lucky in some of those Tourney games that on those days the teams we played were SO inept in handling a zone for whatever reasons. I personally think Duke or Arizona last year, and if we had played Louisville again somewhere in the Tourney would've had easier times forcing us to keep up the scoring. I also think, albeit unfamiliar teams, that the teams in the ACC have some better skill players and are more equipped to handle our zone than some of the recent Big East teams. We'll need to keep up the scoring, imo. The ACC games supposedly flow more (I don't really buy that) but we're going to have just as much trouble scoring there as anywhere else. Just my two cents.

It is always the case that matchups will define how far you advance in the tournament. Someone wins and the other teams loses. If you get a matchup against a team that is built in a way that allows them to exploit your weaknesses you are more likely to be the team that goes home. But I also don't think people recognize SU's zone for what it is, and that is a very effective defense. Those teams were inept at handling the zone because on those days we played it that well.

Too many people want to paint it as slight of hand that only works against teams that aren't accustomed to it and that its success is more a result of the other team's failure than how effective the defense was. Yes, obviously coaches and players that have played against it have a better chance at being successful against it because they have had more time preparing for it, same goes for any team's defense. But it is also a case of matchups in reverse. Some teams have athletes that are better able to exploit the zone defense that we play. If we run into a team that has a dynamic player that can catch the ball at foul line and turn and hit the 12 footer or kick to an open player that can hit the shot that is available then we will have a more difficult time, but when we are playing good zone defense it is more difficult to do that it looks like when the commentator draws it up and tells the fans how it should be done.

 

[baggerbob]

The one point that is obvious from the 3 games, Coleman still can't play defense at this level. It doesn't matter if you can score or not, we gave up way too many second chance points in the 1st half. The team , and DC2 would be best served by his taking a redshirt, getting in better shape, learning how to play the middle of the zone.