Class of 2019 CG Joe Girard III (NY) SIGNED WITH SYRACUSE

[IthacaMatt]

don't let the perfect be the enemy of the stellar

But it's not "stellar", even by our standards.
It's a very good class, but I could name at least 3 or 4 that were better since 2000.

Here are my tiers of classes. Of course, with the recent ones, we are projecting, and don't have the value of as much hindsight. I put them in order taking into account how highly recruited the players were, and some measure of how they panned out.

For instance, DuJuan Coleman was a top rated center who we beat out Kentucy for, but the injuries kept him from ever being much of a contributor. On paper, he was a very good get, but I downgraded him some for his actual playing career. Kind of the same thing with Rak.

Elite:
2008 recruits: Donte Greene, Jonny Flynn, Rick Jackson, Scoop Jardine (transfer: Kristof Ongenaet)
2003 recruits: Melo, GMac, Billy Edelin and Matt Gorman
2011 recruits: Dion Waiters, Fab Melo, C.J. Fair, Baye Keita

"Stellar" (Let's say your Stellar equals "Very Good", not to put you on the spot too much):
2010 recruits: James Southerland, Brandon Triche, Mookie Jones, DeShonte Riley, (transfer: Wes Johnson)
2006 recruits: Eric Devendorf, Arinze Onuaku and Andy Rautins
2016 recruits: Tyler Lydon, Mali Richardson, Frank Howard, (transfer: Pascal Chukwu)
2004 recruits: Demetris Nichols, Terrence Roberts, Mookie Watkins and Louie McCrosky
2017 recruits: Tyus Battle, Taurean Thompson, Matt Moyer, (transfers: Andrew White, John Gillon)
2012 recruits: Michael Carter-Williams,Trevor Cooney, Rakeem Christmas
2013 recruits: Jeremie Grant, DuJuan Coleman, (transfer: Mike Gbinije)

Solid:
2002 recruits: Hakim Warrick, Josh Pace, Craig Forth
2019 recruits: Buddy Boeheim, Jalen Carey, Robert Braswell
2018 recruits: Oshea Brissett, Marek Dolizaj, Bourama Sidibe, Howard Washington

Disappointing:
2014 recruits: Tyler Ennis, Tyler Roberson, B.J. Johnson, Ron Patterson, Chino Obokoh
2015 recruits: Chris McCullough, Kaleb Joseph
2005 recruits: Dayshawn Wright, Josh Wright

Right now, our class consists of:

Quincy Guerrier - 6-7 F Canada (Is he Oshae Brissett or Andrew Wiggins?) - let's call him a 4 star. He's the star of our class. He's a very good athlete and he can hit the three. But on film from the Canadian "McDonalds" (BioSteel All Canada) game, yes, he was the MVP, but I didn't think his footwork was that great. He seemed to have to measure his steps several times as he was lining up dunks; it didn't just flow naturally, like it does with, say, Goodine. Right now, to me, he looks like a C.J. Fair kind of player, which is really solid. No complaints.

Brycen Goodine - 6-4 G, Prep School, 4 star - he's talented but still developing as a shooter. Is he Tyus Battle or Mali Richardson? He's not as big as Tyus, but he is very athletic. He had a very good summer from 3 in EYBL, but New England Prep Reports says his shooting still needs consistency, and he's getting more time on the ball and his passing is improving.

Joe Girard - 6-1 G, 4 star - his comp is GMac or Jimmy Lee (for the old guys). He'll never live up to the legend that is GMac, but he might shoot a better percentage for his career. He's not a pure point, but being a state champ QB gives him some leadership and knowledge about helping his teammates succeed.

Jon Bol Ajok - 6-11 C, based on his recent improvements, let's say he's a 3 star and not a total project. His upside to me is Taurean Thompson, and I think it'll take him a couple years to be that good offensively, to be honest. He hits open jumpers, but his release is slow. He's only started to dribble with any sort of skill in the last 3-6 months. He has made the jump from a 2 star to a 3 star, but he's no 4 star prospect.

Right now, I would place this group somewhere in the middle of our "Very Good" group.

So, if you want to say "Very Good" = "Stellar", well, OK.
I think right now it's a very good class, with lots of good pieces, 3 of whom will be certain contributors within a couple years, if not next year, and only 1 real flyer.

I would place this class right now somewhere between our 7th and 9th best classes of the 2000s.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

But it's not "stellar", even by our standards.
It's a very good class, but I could name at least 3 or 4 that were better since 2000.

Here are my tiers of classes. Of course, with the recent ones, we are projecting, and don't have the value of as much hindsight. I put them in order taking into account how highly recruited the players were, and some measure of how they panned out.

For instance, DuJuan Coleman was a top rated center who we beat out Kentucy for, but the injuries kept him from ever being much of a contributor. On paper, he was a very good get, but I downgraded him some for his actual playing career. Kind of the same thing with Rak.

Elite:
2008 recruits: Donte Greene, Jonny Flynn, Rick Jackson, Scoop Jardine (transfer: Kristof Ongenaet)
2003 recruits: Melo, GMac, Billy Edelin and Matt Gorman
2011 recruits: Dion Waiters, Fab Melo, C.J. Fair, Baye Keita

"Stellar" (Let's say your Stellar equals "Very Good", not to put you on the spot too much):
2010 recruits: James Southerland, Brandon Triche, Mookie Jones, DeShonte Riley, (transfer: Wes Johnson)
2006 recruits: Eric Devendorf, Arinze Onuaku and Andy Rautins
2016 recruits: Tyler Lydon, Mali Richardson, Frank Howard, (transfer: Pascal Chukwu)
2004 recruits: Demetris Nichols, Terrence Roberts, Mookie Watkins and Louie McCrosky
2017 recruits: Tyus Battle, Taurean Thompson, Matt Moyer, (transfers: Andrew White, John Gillon)
2012 recruits: Michael Carter-Williams,Trevor Cooney, Rakeem Christmas
2013 recruits: Jeremie Grant, DuJuan Coleman, (transfer: Mike Gbinije)

Solid:
2002 recruits: Hakim Warrick, Josh Pace, Craig Forth
2019 recruits: Buddy Boeheim, Jalen Carey, Robert Braswell
2018 recruits: Oshea Brissett, Marek Dolizaj, Bourama Sidibe, Howard Washington

Disappointing:
2014 recruits: Tyler Ennis, Tyler Roberson, B.J. Johnson, Ron Patterson, Chino Obokoh
2015 recruits: Chris McCullough, Kaleb Joseph
2005 recruits: Dayshawn Wright, Josh Wright

Right now, our class consists of:

Quincy Guerrier - 6-7 F Canada (Is he Oshae Brissett or Andrew Wiggins?) - let's call him a 4 star. He's the star of our class. He's a very good athlete and he can hit the three. But on film from the Canadian "McDonalds" (BioSteel All Canada) game, yes, he was the MVP, but I didn't think his footwork was that great. He seemed to have to measure his steps several times as he was lining up dunks; it didn't just flow naturally, like it does with, say, Goodine. Right now, to me, he looks like a C.J. Fair kind of player, which is really solid. No complaints.

Brycen Goodine - 6-4 G, Prep School, 4 star - he's talented but still developing as a shooter. Is he Tyus Battle or Mali Richardson? He's not as big as Tyus, but he is very athletic. He had a very good summer from 3 in EYBL, but New England Prep Reports says his shooting still needs consistency, and he's getting more time on the ball and his passing is improving.

Joe Girard - 6-1 G, 4 star - his comp is GMac or Jimmy Lee (for the old guys). He'll never live up to the legend that is GMac, but he might shoot a better percentage for his career. He's not a pure point, but being a state champ QB gives him some leadership and knowledge about helping his teammates succeed.

Jon Bol Ajok - 6-11 C, based on his recent improvements, let's say he's a 3 star and not a total project. His upside to me is Taurean Thompson, and I think it'll take him a couple years to be that good offensively, to be honest. He hits open jumpers, but his release is slow. He's only started to dribble with any sort of skill in the last 3-6 months. He has made the jump from a 2 star to a 3 star, but he's no 4 star prospect.

Right now, I would place this group somewhere in the middle of our "Very Good" group.

So, if you want to say "Very Good" = "Stellar", well, OK.
I think right now it's a very good class, with lots of good pieces, 3 of whom will be certain contributors within a couple years, if not next year, and only 1 real flyer.

I would place this class right now somewhere between our 7th and 9th best classes of the 2000s.

Splitting hairs but I would move 2002 up and put the Wrong brothers in a subterranean category all by themselves. Plus I still think we might get one more for this year. JAB knows the team will be solid. Wants more big man depth.

 

[moqui]

Quincy Guerrier - 6-7 F Canada (Is he Oshae Brissett or Andrew Wiggins?) - let's call him a 4 star. He's the star of our class. He's a very good athlete and he can hit the three. But on film from the Canadian "McDonalds" (BioSteel All Canada) game, yes, he was the MVP, but I didn't think his footwork was that great. He seemed to have to measure his steps several times as he was lining up dunks; it didn't just flow naturally, like it does with, say, Goodine. Right now, to me, he looks like a C.J. Fair kind of player, which is really solid. No complaints.

Brycen Goodine - 6-4 G, Prep School, 4 star - he's talented but still developing as a shooter. Is he Tyus Battle or Mali Richardson? He's not as big as Tyus, but he is very athletic. He had a very good summer from 3 in EYBL, but New England Prep Reports says his shooting still needs consistency, and he's getting more time on the ball and his passing is improving.

Joe Girard - 6-1 G, 4 star - his comp is GMac or Jimmy Lee (for the old guys). He'll never live up to the legend that is GMac, but he might shoot a better percentage for his career. He's not a pure point, but being a state champ QB gives him some leadership and knowledge about helping his teammates succeed.

Jon Bol Ajok - 6-11 C, based on his recent improvements, let's say he's a 3 star and not a total project. His upside to me is Taurean Thompson, and I think it'll take him a couple years to be that good offensively, to be honest. He hits open jumpers, but his release is slow. He's only started to dribble with any sort of skill in the last 3-6 months. He has made the jump from a 2 star to a 3 star, but he's no 4 star prospect.

 

[pfister1]

The 2002 class belongs much higher. A consensus All American, Four year starter, and 2 year starter. All 3 major contributors on our national championship team.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The 2002 class belongs much higher. A consensus All American, Four year starter, and 2 year starter. All 3 major contributors on our national championship team.

Yes, their production was outstanding, but from a recruiting "get" perspective, I think Pace was borderline top 50, Hak was below him (75-100) and Forth was not top 100. I think Konecny was the top rated guy in the class (and of course Edelin, who didn't arrive until the next season). But of the three who actually arrived, numbers wise they were not in the top 10 classes minimum.

I probably have the 2010 recruits a little too high. Almost every class in my second tier has a first round pick or a McDonald's AA on it, so it's tough to say 2002 was a "great" recruiting class when they weren't that highly recruited, as a group. Goes to show you that chemistry and role acceptance is what makes up a great team, not just "talent".

 

[Cusefan0307]

Isn’t IthacaMatt scouting specifically on rankings? Seems so.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Isn’t IthacaMatt scouting specifically on rankings? Seems so.

I just told you I watched the Canadian national all star game before commenting about Guerrier.
I have seen lots of film of Goodine, but usually highlight tapes. So I went and read a half dozen reports from New England Prep Journal from this season. I have seen a fair amount of tape of Ajok and commented specifically on that, in terms of his awkward dribbling until about mid-season this year, and so many of his highlight tapes being shots of him working out in an empty gym against no defenders. I have seen a pretty decent amount of Girard, too.

So, no, I'm not going just off of rankings, although when one looks at rankings, hoops is like football - it's easy to see who the elite players are. It's harder to hit on the three star under the radar guys consistently.

We used to do that, but that was JB's gift; his current assistants have been more hit-and-miss on the mid-tier guys like Frank Howard, Kaleb Joseph, Ron Patterson, Trevor Cooney, etc. Not quite 4 star guys, not consistent contributors.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I just told you I watched the Canadian national all star game before commenting about Guerrier.
I have seen lots of film of Goodine, but usually highlight tapes. So I went and read a half dozen reports from New England Prep Journal from this season. I have seen a fair amount of tape of Ajok and commented specifically on that, in terms of his awkward dribbling until about mid-season this year, and so many of his highlight tapes being shots of him working out in an empty gym against no defenders. I have seen a pretty decent amount of Girard, too.

So, no, I'm not going just off of rankings, although when one looks at rankings, hoops is like football - it's easy to see who the elite players are. It's harder to hit on the three star under the radar guys consistently.

We used to do that, but that was JB's gift; his current assistants have been more hit-and-miss on the mid-tier guys like Frank Howard, Kaleb Joseph, Ron Patterson, Trevor Cooney, etc. Not quite 4 star guys, not consistent contributors.

Joseph was top 50-60

Not fair to put Cooney there he contributed to. FF fun and 28 win team. He wasn’t the greatest player, but definitely not a bust. Same with Frank.

Patterson was outside of the top 200.

I guess I have an issue with people just thinking guys who are athletes are good. Kind of got us in this mess to begin with. That’s why I value players like Buddy over Carey. We need bucket getters. Not just guys who are fast. Right now Carey reminds me way too much of Kaleb.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Joseph was top 50-60

Not fair to put Cooney there he contributed to. FF fun and 28 win team. He wasn’t the greatest player, but definitely not a bust. Same with Frank.

Patterson was outside of the top 200.

I guess I have an issue with people just thinking guys who are athletes are good. Kind of got us in this mess to begin with. That’s why I value players like Buddy over Carey. We need bucket getters. Not just guys who are fast. Right now Carey reminds me way too much of Kaleb.

If you want to win one more championship before JB retires, then it has to be both. We need at least a couple elite athletes who are also technically good basketball players. We've got a bunch of Notre Dame-style "basketball players" on the roster (Girard, Buddy, Eli, Dolezaj). We've got some uber-athletes who are not "natural" basketball players (Oshae, maybe Goodine, soon-to-depart Frank).

We need a couple guys who can be both.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Joseph was top 50-60

Not fair to put Cooney there he contributed to. FF fun and 28 win team. He wasn’t the greatest player, but definitely not a bust. Same with Frank.

Patterson was outside of the top 200.

I guess I have an issue with people just thinking guys who are athletes are good. Kind of got us in this mess to begin with. That’s why I value players like Buddy over Carey. We need bucket getters. Not just guys who are fast. Right now Carey reminds me way too much of Kaleb.

I didn't say all 4 guys were busts - I picked them as a group to show "hit or miss", which they were. Cooney was an overachiever; Frank has had his moments, but also had some awful ones as well.

I don't recall Ron Patterson being ranked outside the top 200. I thought I recalled him being a decommit from somebody like Indiana, who withdrew his scholarship offer, but I could be wrong.

Yes, Kaleb Joseph was rated just below 4 stars, but didn't pan out. It happens. Those guys outside the top 50 or so are hit-and-miss. That was my point, not that they all suck and will never contribute. It was like either Moqui or Newmexicuse said earlier, 4 stars are almost-sure things to at least be contributors by their second year, if they don't eventually become stars.

But most 3 star guys are 50/50 whether they will ever really help you as a starter.

 

[moqui]

I just told you I watched the Canadian national all star game before commenting about Guerrier.
I have seen lots of film of Goodine, but usually highlight tapes. So I went and read a half dozen reports from New England Prep Journal from this season. I have seen a fair amount of tape of Ajok and commented specifically on that, in terms of his awkward dribbling until about mid-season this year, and so many of his highlight tapes being shots of him working out in an empty gym against no defenders. I have seen a pretty decent amount of Girard, too.

So, no, I'm not going just off of rankings, although when one looks at rankings, hoops is like football - it's easy to see who the elite players are. It's harder to hit on the three star under the radar guys consistently.

We used to do that, but that was JB's gift; his current assistants have been more hit-and-miss on the mid-tier guys like Frank Howard, Kaleb Joseph, Ron Patterson, Trevor Cooney, etc. Not quite 4 star guys, not consistent contributors.

jba was a 4 star before his injury. he dropped due to lack of visibility only.

coach k wanted jgiii. jay wright wanted jba. i trust their judgement better than the ranking services.

i think those services - and you - are seriously under rating those two in particular

 

[IthacaMatt]

If you want to win one more championship before JB retires, then it has to be both. We need at least a couple elite athletes who are also technically good basketball players. We've got a bunch of Notre Dame-style "basketball players" on the roster (Girard, Buddy, Eli, Dolezaj). We've got some good athletes who are not "natural" basketball players (Oshae, maybe Goodine, soon-to-depart Frank, and some people may feel that way about Tyus).

We need a couple guys who can be both.

 

[IthacaMatt]

jba was a 4 star before his injury. he dropped due to lack of visibility only.

coach k wanted jgiii. jay wright wanted jba. i trust their judgement better than the ranking services.

i think those services - and you - are seriously under rating those two in particular

Akok Akok was the 4 star talent his junior year, not Ajok. The guy we lost to UConn. JBA is not in his class, and Akok Akok was a four star.

Yes, Guerrier is a very good player. I compared him to C.J. Fair. Is that an insult?
Do you think he is the next Andrew Wiggins? Because I don't see it. He's not R.J. Barrett, either.

Goodine could be very good. Is he Mali, who I believe was a Mickey Dee - a first round pick who can hit the three at 35%+ as a frosh, or is he something less than that?

Girard's dad thought SU might be too tough for him to see the court right away.
Who is going to sit at guard so that Joe plays? He's not a pure point, that's why I compared him to Jimmy Lee.

Carey is the closest thing we have on the roster to an actual PG, other than Howard Washington, and Washington's just not dynamic enough with the ball in his hands, IMO. Carey is going to play. I think he will cut down his turnovers when he knows he not getting yanked out over every mistake. He's not sitting for Girard. Girard isn't going to start at PG for us next year; he'll be the back-up though. That's not bad for a frosh.

 

[moqui]

Akok Akok was the 4 star talent his junior year, not Ajok. The guy we lost to UConn. JBA is not in his class, and Akok Akok was a four star.

Yes, Guerrier is a very good player. I compared him to C.J. Fair. Is that an insult?
Do you think he is the next Andrew Wiggins? Because I don't see it. He's not R.J. Barrett, either.

Goodine could be very good. Is he Mali, who I believe was a Mickey Dee - a first round pick who can hit the three at 35%+ as a frosh, or is he something less than that?

no, jba was. ranked as high as 79. see my post in his thread

 

[Cusefan0307]

I didn't say all 4 guys were busts - I picked them as a group to show "hit or miss", which they were. Cooney was an overachiever; Frank has had his moments, but also had some awful ones as well.

I don't recall Ron Patterson being ranked outside the top 200. I thought I recalled him being a decommit from somebody like Indiana, who withdrew his scholarship offer, but I could be wrong.

Yes, Kaleb Joseph was rated just below 4 stars, but didn't pan out. It happens. Those guys outside the top 50 or so are hit-and-miss. That was my point, not that they all suck and will never contribute. It was like either Moqui or Newmexicuse said earlier, 4 stars are almost-sure things to at least be contributors by their second year, if they don't eventually become stars.

But most 3 star guys are 50/50 whether they will ever really help you as a starter.

Joseph was RSCI 52nd he was 4 stars and handpicked by Hop to be the PG.

He wasn’t some fall back option.

And give me b-ball players over athletes. That’s how Gonzaga, Nova, Michigan, and UNC win games. They don’t have athletic guards that can’t shoot or dribble. We haven’t been able to shoot for years out of 2016 and 2017.

Plus Braswell is an elite athlete anyway.

Archiadiacano was Novas best player in 2016 and he’s similar to Girard. I wouldn’t call him an athlete.

 

[IthacaMatt]

no, jba was. ranked as high as 79. see my post in his thread

Watch this clip. He is slow with the release of his set shot. He dribbles the ball off his leg twice in the first minute or so of a "highlights" clip. When he drives the lane, he doesn't dunk, he leaves it at the lip of the rim a couple times, and it wiggles over. He doesn't look that explosive or that quick. This isn't him making shots in an empty gym, it's against live competition. Now, granted, I saw film from a month or so ago that looked much improved, and I said so at the time. He looked much more decisive going to the rim, for instance. But this is still your guy, this past summer.

 

[IthacaMatt]

no, jba was. ranked as high as 79. see my post in his thread

Number 79 isn't a four star. You said he was. He's not. He's a three star.

 

[moqui]

Number 79 isn't a four star. You said he was. He's not. He's a three star.

yes it is. and he was.

used to be 1-25 were automatic 5 stars, 26-100 were four stars. it's not as cut and dried anymore: (this year, 2-4-7 is handing out 4 stars all the way down to 128 and rivals all the way to 130*). its arbitrary and its stupid and i don't care about star ratings, but you do

i care more about how jb & jay wright evaluate his talent, and they were both willing to offer a scarce commodity (scholarship) to him.

*that second link to r-ivals won't work unless you put r-ivals (without the dash) in after the n.

 

[kcsu]

Ok, I have an “I was wrong” statement to write on this kid - but, first, I need to ask a serious question:

How can that possibly not translate to the next level?

Seriously. Watched clip 10 times - catches ball damn near close to half court. Takes all of 2 seconds (literally) to catch & shoot. Great form. Defender makes effort to guard shot, but too late. Give the man another 3 points.

How is that play stopped by an opposing college team? I don’t see how it unfolds any differently, and I’m trying to be open-minded.

Shooting like that has got to transfer to the college level, just has to. Only scenario where I could see it not is if Girard was either 1.) Too short, such that opposing defenders could block or alter the shot and/or 2.) Too slow in his mechanics to get shot off quick enough. But I don’t think either of those things are true of JG3.

Looking for responses/thoughts please

His release is text book perfect. Quick trigger handles the ball well enough to create his own shot. Has range from beyond NBA three. Plus he is a proven leader. His game is going to translate just fine.

 

[orangejunkie]

JGIII has another big game in the state semis as Glen Falls defeated Olean who was #1 in state B, by 20 points. His line was pretty impressive, 39points, 13 rebounds, and 9 assists. Quite the stat stuffer. They play in the state finals today against Lowville.

 

[Orangefan1]

After state finals do they play teams in other states?

 

[IthacaMatt]

yes it is. and he was.

used to be 1-25 were automatic 5 stars, 26-100 were four stars. it's not as cut and dried anymore: (this year, 2-4-7 is handing out 4 stars all the way down to 128 and rivals all the way to 130*). its arbitrary and its stupid and i don't care about star ratings, but you do

i care more about how jb & jay wright evaluate his talent, and they were both willing to offer a scarce commodity (scholarship) to him.

*that second link to r-ivals won't work unless you put r-ivals (without the dash) in after the n.

Historically, consensus 4 stars are usually around 25-60. Not all Mickey Dee's are 5 stars, and in most rankings I've ever seen, I don't recall any guy in the 70s, 80s or 90s being a 4 star recruit.

But that's just me. I've only been following recruiting for 20+ years, so I could be wrong.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Historically, consensus 4 stars are usually around 25-60. Not all Mickey Dee's are 5 stars, and in most rankings I've ever seen, I don't recall any guy in the 70s, 80s or 90s being a 4 star recruit.

But that's just me. I've only been following recruiting for 20+ years, so I could be wrong.

I’ve been following recruiting the last 20 years as well and I don’t remember Anyone in the top 100 ever not being a 4 star prospect.

 

[Grabberorang]

Watch this clip. He is slow with the release of his set shot. He dribbles the ball off his leg twice in the first minute or so of a "highlights" clip. When he drives the lane, he doesn't dunk, he leaves it at the lip of the rim a couple times, and it wiggles over. He doesn't look that explosive or that quick. This isn't him making shots in an empty gym, it's against live competition. Now, granted, I saw film from a month or so ago that looked much improved, and I said so at the time. He looked much more decisive going to the rim, for instance. But this is still your guy, this past summer.

Yikes. looks like a 2 star or unranked kind of player in this one.

 

[Halfmooncuse]

After state finals do they play teams in other states?

If they win the states they played the Federation being held in Glenn Falls New York