Cincy Sucking Up To The ACC

[Willy75]

Would love to know why UConn makes any sense?

Brings more clout to the northern portion of the ACC and keeps the geographic integrity of the league, preserves a passionate rivalry for SU and rekindles a passionate rivalry with BC, fits the state school academic profile of the league. Sure some of their fans can be obnoxious, but that's what rivalries are about and they bring a lot to the party.

 

[bnoro]

Brings more clout to the northern portion of the ACC and keeps the geographic integrity of the league, preserves a passionate rivalry for SU and rekindles a passionate rivalry with BC, fits the state school academic profile of the league. Sure some of their fans can be obnoxious, but that's what rivalries are about and they bring a lot to the party.

clout in what sport? Basketball they will be average IMO with Ollie as coach, Football they are going to be a bottom feeder, they don't bring any other olympic sport to the table besides Women's BBall.

 

[Townie72]

Brings more clout to the northern portion of the ACC and keeps the geographic integrity of the league, preserves a passionate rivalry for SU and rekindles a passionate rivalry with BC, fits the state school academic profile of the league. Sure some of their fans can be obnoxious, but that's what rivalries are about and they bring a lot to the party.

A huge stretch.

If they were as attractive as you suggest they wouldn't be where they are.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

[omniorange]

Brings more clout to the northern portion of the ACC and keeps the geographic integrity of the league, preserves a passionate rivalry for SU and rekindles a passionate rivalry with BC, fits the state school academic profile of the league. Sure some of their fans can be obnoxious, but that's what rivalries are about and they bring a lot to the party.

Agreed. But they only get in if the ACC loses another team (which won't be good for us anyway) or if ND joins fully (which will be good for us).

Cheers,
Neil

 

[omniorange]

A huge stretch.

If they were as attractive as you suggest they wouldn't be where they are.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Attractiveness (or pudding, whichever you prefer) is in the eye of beholder(taster).

The BiG didn't necessarily find us so pleasing to the eye, but the ACC has coveted us for a while.

UConn, like us, is far more like an ACC school than a BiG school, but their fans are so anti-SU and anti-BC now they believe the opposite.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[SU2NASA]

UVa/VT are small fries compared to the interest in Maryland??? I lived there for 6 years not too long ago (think back to when they were actually good at one of the major sports) and I think you're nuts and need to get out more if you think that's the case.

I've been saying the same thing and I live 5 miles from their campus.

 

[OrangeMojo]

I've been saying the same thing and I live 5 miles from their campus.

if the DC market gave a rats behind about UMD sports they wouldn't be hemorrhaging money and selling themselves to another conference to avoid bankruptcy - pretty simple really

 

[Bayside44]

if the DC market gave a rats behind about UMD sports they wouldn't be hemorrhaging money and selling themselves to another conference to avoid bankruptcy - pretty simple really

Not sure about that...they can care but Byrd didn't need a big expansion with all those luxury suites, esp built at a time when in this town anyway a series of reforms passed that made those things far less attractive and less useful.

 

[Townie72]

Attractiveness (or pudding, whichever you prefer) is in the eye of beholder(taster).

The BiG didn't necessarily find us so pleasing to the eye, but the ACC has coveted us for a while.

UConn, like us, is far more like an ACC school than a BiG school, but their fans are so anti-SU and anti-BC now they believe the opposite.

Cheers,
Neil

In their current state of mind (End Stage Desperation) they would buy anything including their similarity to Bi2 12 schools.

I really think they poisoned the well by leading that lawsuit against the ACC including some of the principals, individually. Looking through that prism or lens, all of their other faults are magnified.

The B1G was actually interested in SU as their spokeman said in the press interviews when ND turned down the formal invite. But I certainly don't think we fit in the B1G and I don't think we could compete with those monsters in the long run.

 

[Townie72]

if the DC market gave a rats behind about UMD sports they wouldn't be hemorrhaging money and selling themselves to another conference to avoid bankruptcy - pretty simple really

Two things.

The first is that Maryland law requires that the Athletic Department be self-funding. A whole lot of other schools would be in the same position if they had similar laws in their States. Maryland football attendance is weak, but it isn't all that weak. Basketball attendance is very strong.

Second, it was the stadium expansion that got them in a lot of the trouble. They had a few good years when Fridgen came in and that got them thinking grandious thoughts. Maryland's problems are just like Rutgers, except that NJ law didn't prohibit RU from robbing the students.

 

[Btstimpy]

Brings more clout to the northern portion of the ACC and keeps the geographic integrity of the league, preserves a passionate rivalry for SU and rekindles a passionate rivalry with BC, fits the state school academic profile of the league. Sure some of their fans can be obnoxious, but that's what rivalries are about and they bring a lot to the party.

I agree with all of this about UConn. The perception with the Football oriented ACC schools is that UConn is a basketball school. I imagine 10 national championships in men's and women's basketball in the past 20 years will do that to a place. But their football isn't far off from competing in the ACC, and they fit academically and geographically. They will have to overcome this perception in an environment where football is the priority.

I'm still curious what Cincinnati could bring to the table. I know next to nothing about Cincinnati other than they are interested and have been a natural rival for Louisville over the years.

 

[bnoro]

I agree with all of this about UConn. The perception with the Football oriented ACC schools is that UConn is a basketball school. I imagine 10 national championships in men's and women's basketball in the past 20 years will do that to a place. But their football isn't far off from competing in the ACC, and they fit academically and geographically. They will have to overcome this perception in an environment where football is the priority.

I'm still curious what Cincinnati could bring to the table. I know next to nothing about Cincinnati other than they are interested and have been a natural rival for Louisville over the years.

With P running the ship they aren't even going to compete in the Big East this season.

 

[omniorange]

With P running the ship they aren't even going to compete in the Big East this season.

UConn would quickly dump P if they got in the ACC.

Again, they aren't getting in without ND going all-in and even then if ND wants someone else or a bigger fish wants in they aren't getting in.

But UConn (with ND on board fully) only strengthens the NYC-Boston DMAs for the ACC the best outside of PSU. And how likely is PSU, even with ND?

Cheers,
Neil

 

[omniorange]

In their current state of mind (End Stage Desperation) they would buy anything including their similarity to Bi2 12 schools.

I really think they poisoned the well by leading that lawsuit against the ACC including some of the principals, individually. Looking through that prism or lens, all of their other faults are magnified.

The B1G was actually interested in SU as their spokeman said in the press interviews when ND turned down the formal invite. But I certainly don't think we fit in the B1G and I don't think we could compete with those monsters in the long run.

I'm not saying that they weren't entirely interested in us back in 2010. I truly believe the rumor of ND, Rutgers, SU, and Maryland that leaked from Indiana back then after it became clear Nebraska was likely #12. But we were definitely last in that grouping and more of "see ND, there will be another private institution if you join".

But I highly doubt if the ACC hadn't expanded that the BiG would have offered Maryland and us instead of Maryland and Rutgers. Delany has always coveted the Scarlet Knights, for whatever reason.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[All4SU]

I agree with all of this about UConn. The perception with the Football oriented ACC schools is that UConn is a basketball school. I imagine 10 national championships in men's and women's basketball in the past 20 years will do that to a place. But their football isn't far off from competing in the ACC, and they fit academically and geographically. They will have to overcome this perception in an environment where football is the priority.

I'm still curious what Cincinnati could bring to the table. I know next to nothing about Cincinnati other than they are interested and have been a natural rival for Louisville over the years.

No one, and I mean no one, cares about women's hoops. They could have 100 women's hoops championships, and I would mean nothing.

 

[orangetrojan]

I agree with all of this about UConn. The perception with the Football oriented ACC schools is that UConn is a basketball school. I imagine 10 national championships in men's and women's basketball in the past 20 years will do that to a place. But their football isn't far off from competing in the ACC, and they fit academically and geographically. They will have to overcome this perception in an environment where football is the priority.

I'm still curious what Cincinnati could bring to the table. I know next to nothing about Cincinnati other than they are interested and have been a natural rival for Louisville over the years.

Therein lies the problem, in the northeast people just dont care about college football, its all about the NFL. This sentiment is magnified in the New England corridor. I get adding L'ville, I was all for it because you saw the results on the field and the fact that the school's overall trajectory in athletics (FB and BB) and academics seem to be on the rise.

From a business standpoint the ACC should be heavy on schools south of the mason-dixon line as those are the demographics that care more passionately about college football. With that passion comes the pressure to field a competitive team. During the fall, people in Connecticut are more concerned with uconn hoops, picking pumpkins, and getting a new pea coat than packing the FB stadium.

As far as Cinci goes, unfortunately for them I think the ACC should only invite a school for quality growth, particularly in FB. I'm not sure they really bring that to the table.

 

[omniorange]

Therein lies the problem, in the northeast people just dont care about college football, its all about the NFL. This sentiment is magnified in the New England corridor.

Not really, it is the same throughout the northeastern corridor. The only true exception are the boonies of PA and their love of PSU. Let's face it, the rest of the northeastern corridor teams don't have massive football followings - not BC, not SU, not Rutgers, not UConn, not Temple, not Pitt, and not Maryland. So it isn't "magnified" in the New England corridor.

Besides, I don't think any one in this thread is saying that if a true football power (a King or a Baron) were interested in the ACC not to take them and grab UConn instead.

But, if expansion does occur (which, as I said earlier would only be if the ACC loses a member or two) or if ND decides to join and they aren't pushing for someone to be #16 for joining in fully, then UConn makes the most sense for what the ACC is trying to accomplish in its efforts to establish the ACC as the conference of the entire east coast.

Louisville was needed over UConn because they dwarfed the Huskies in football and are the slightly better program in men's bb. This isn't true of any other realistic ACC candidate now - not Cincy, not Temple, not USF, not UCF, etc. Heck it's not even true with Vandy (a hot pick by some in earlier threads - although I myself don't see them as a 'realistic' candidate at all).

Cheers,
Neil

 

[WoadBlue]

Not really, it is the same throughout the northeastern corridor. The only true exception are the boonies of PA and their love of PSU. Let's face it, the rest of the northeastern corridor teams don't have massive football followings - not BC, not SU, not Rutgers, not UConn, not Temple, not Pitt, and not Maryland. So it isn't "magnified" in the New England corridor.

Besides, I don't think any one in this thread is saying that if a true football power (a King or a Baron) were interested in the ACC not to take them and grab UConn instead.

But, if expansion does occur (which, as I said earlier would only be if the ACC loses a member or two) or if ND decides to join and they aren't pushing for someone to be #16 for joining in fully, then UConn makes the most sense for what the ACC is trying to accomplish in its efforts to establish the ACC as the conference of the entire east coast.

Louisville was needed over UConn because they dwarfed the Huskies in football and are the slightly better program in men's bb. This isn't true of any other realistic ACC candidate now - not Cincy, not Temple, not USF, not UCF, etc. Heck it's not even true with Vandy (a hot pick by some in earlier threads - although I myself don't see them as a 'realistic' candidate at all).

Cheers,
Neil

With Rutgers and Maryland headed to the Big Ten that already has PSU, it is impossible for the ACC to be the conference of the east coast. We share the southeast with the SEC (UF, UGa, and SoCar) and the northeast with the BT.

New England is the region (or sub-region) with the smallest % of people who care about major college sports 0- at least NY people watch college basketball in decent numbers. It also produces very few college football players: all NE states combined produce not even half as many D1A football recruits as does NC, which produces very little compared to GA, which is dwarfed by FL.

Quite simply, even with ND on board fully for football, the ACC does not need another school in a region like New England.

The midwest is a whole other story. OH produces almost as many 1A football players as GA, and OH produces more D1 hoops players than NC and VA combined. OH people watch both college revenue sports in droves. Cincy has much more upside than UConn for the ACC in everything but chick hoops.

 

[omniorange]

With Rutgers and Maryland headed to the Big Ten that already has PSU, it is impossible for the ACC to be the conference of the east coast. We share the southeast with the SEC (UF, UGa, and SoCar) and the northeast with the BT.

New England is the region (or sub-region) with the smallest % of people who care about major college sports 0- at least NY people watch college basketball in decent numbers. It also produces very few college football players: all NE states combined produce not even half as many D1A football recruits as does NC, which produces very little compared to GA, which is dwarfed by FL.

Quite simply, even with ND on board fully for football, the ACC does not need another school in a region like New England.

The midwest is a whole other story. OH produces almost as many 1A football players as GA, and OH produces more D1 hoops players than NC and VA combined. OH people watch both college revenue sports in droves. Cincy has much more upside than UConn for the ACC in everything but chick hoops.

Ohio people watch Big Ten teams play their revenue sports in droves. Cincy's TV ratings have not been great in the Big East.

The recruiting angle is one I will concede and since our staff is now mostly midwesterners that is definitely a plus for the Bearcats. But just as Louisville was a no-brainer over UConn, the Huskies are a no-brainer over Cincy.

In addition to simply being far, far ahead of Cincy in terms of overall athletic departments, UConn could very well revitalize BC by giving them a competitor in their region again. The Beagles were soft in the Big East prior to UConn becoming good in bb in the 90s and they got soft again while in the ACC. The BC that entered the ACC was well above average in both revenue sports but they got there because they saw the threat that UConn posed to them and got their act together.

And I, myself, would never underestimate the UConn athletic department. Considering where they started from, they turned a nothing bb program into a Top 10 program of all-time in about two decades, they turned a nothing women's bb program into a Top 2 program of all-time in the same time frame, and they became competitive in FBS football more quickly (in less than a decade) than anyone on these boards thought possible. I think back on when the posters on this board laughed and told the Huskies' fans that football wasn't like basketball. It would take many decades for them to be competitive.

Anyway, the Big East has had three great overall athletic departments - ND, UConn, and Louisville. Syracuse, under Gross, is on the verge of getting SU to that level. Cincy isn't close. Always go with the proven commodity when nothing else jumps out at you.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[zls44]

I still prefer ACC over anywhere else (not that there's an option), so it isn't everyone in the rage state.

I agree that Olympic sports are meaningless, but if you don't think UConn has strong Olympic sports, you haven't been paying attention. The baseball team has been excellent. The men's soccer team is one of the top five programs in the country (despite an idiot coach). The field hockey and track teams have won numerous conference/national titles. And the worst program at the school is going to be in the best conference (#GoHockeyEast).

Again, these things don't matter, but to say UConn isn't good at any Olympic sports is just factually inaccurate.

 

[WoadBlue]

Ohio people watch Big Ten teams play their revenue sports in droves. Cincy's TV ratings have not been great in the Big East.

The recruiting angle is one I will concede and since our staff is now mostly midwesterners that is definitely a plus for the Bearcats. But just as Louisville was a no-brainer over UConn, the Huskies are a no-brainer over Cincy.

In addition to simply being far, far ahead of Cincy in terms of overall athletic departments, UConn could very well revitalize BC by giving them a competitor in their region again. The Beagles were soft in the Big East prior to UConn becoming good in bb in the 90s and they got soft again while in the ACC. The BC that entered the ACC was well above average in both revenue sports but they got there because they saw the threat that UConn posed to them and got their act together.

And I, myself, would never underestimate the UConn athletic department. Considering where they started from, they turned a nothing bb program into a Top 10 program of all-time in about two decades, they turned a nothing women's bb program into a Top 2 program of all-time in the same time frame, and they became competitive in FBS football more quickly (in less than a decade) than anyone on these boards thought possible. I think back on when the posters on this board laughed and told the Huskies' fans that football wasn't like basketball. It would take many decades for them to be competitive.

Anyway, the Big East has had three great overall athletic departments - ND, UConn, and Louisville. Syracuse, under Gross, is on the verge of getting SU to that level. Cincy isn't close. Always go with the proven commodity when nothing else jumps out at you.

Cheers,
Neil

How many years has Cincy been in a major conference for football? How many of those years has Cincy been in a major conference for football that most of the country saw as insignificantly better and more important than the MWC?

Which has more room for growth both as a football competitor and a program that draws a large TV audience in its region, a school located in a region as poor in talent and as uninterested in college football as is New England or a school in a state with as much talent and as big an interest in college football as OH?

You are assuming that Cincy has no room for growth and that UConn somehow can elevate BC, as if that mattered more than a jot.

Your conclusion misses the point: the ACC has no pressing need for any more great chick sports or soccer powers or OK baseball teams or hockey wannabees, nor any more schools playing Home games 25 miles from campus. The ACC has a pressing need for access to more top notch football recruits (to help us compete with the SEC on the field) and to more people who are likely to find some interest in watching ACC football once it becomes local to them. If you can get both of those with a school that also has a good basketball history, you have what you need.

Let this sink in - The Cincinnati TV market turns out more football talent than NY and New England combined. That is worth a good deal.

Here is basic logic: if you have a team in a region with no talent production and no significant fan interest, then you are nuts to double those problems. It should be done only if you have no other option.

 

[Blood Orange]

So this will bring their football capacity to what, 32,000? Don't I recall that last year they weren't selling out the seats they already have?
UConn still makes a lot more sense.

Uconn makes zero sense. The whole Hartford thing with them is just odd altogether with them. Are they in Storrs or Hartford? UConn is making no further commitments to anything. They are banking on their 3 NC's in hoops that a conference will come crawling to them. It isn't going to happen unless the football program makes bigger leaps.

 

[omniorange]

How many years has Cincy been in a major conference for football? How many of those years has Cincy been in a major conference for football that most of the country saw as insignificantly better and more important than the MWC?

Which has more room for growth both as a football competitor and a program that draws a large TV audience in its region, a school located in a region as poor in talent and as uninterested in college football as is New England or a school in a state with as much talent and as big an interest in college football as OH?

You are assuming that Cincy has no room for growth and that UConn somehow can elevate BC, as if that mattered more than a jot.

Your conclusion misses the point: the ACC has no pressing need for any more great chick sports or soccer powers or OK baseball teams or hockey wannabees, nor any more schools playing Home games 25 miles from campus. The ACC has a pressing need for access to more top notch football recruits (to help us compete with the SEC on the field) and to more people who are likely to find some interest in watching ACC football once it becomes local to them. If you can get both of those with a school that also has a good basketball history, you have what you need.

Let this sink in - The Cincinnati TV market turns out more football talent than NY and New England combined. That is worth a good deal.

Here is basic logic: if you have a team in a region with no talent production and no significant fan interest, then you are nuts to double those problems. It should be done only if you have no other option.

Woad, if by this time you don't understand how important Boston can be to the ACC, you will never get it. But your reputation and opinions regarding private institutions and how they will be the downfall of the ACC is well known to me since we have debated these issues before when you first advocated for Rutgers and WVU and later for WVU and Pitt when I remained consistent and said if the ACC expanded by 2 it would be with SU and Pitt.

Anyway, one need only go back to BC's first 4 years in the league and see that they had as many major TV appearances - ABC, ESPN, and ESPN2 as UNC, GT, and Clemson and drew great ratings. Which is why they were on TV as much as those state operated campuses with 2 of them having more football pedigree.

And you do realize that UConn was part and parcel of that "insignificant" conference along with the Bearcats, right? And a start-up program without the recruiting talent available to Cincy. So if the Cincinatti area is so awesome, and we know the Bearcats performed on the field better over this time period why did UConn finish with the same number of major TV appearances as Cincinnati? And Cincy only managed to get even in that number last year when UConn was utterly dreadful.

Again, I will concede that Cincinnati's recruiting ground is fertile. I will even concede that the Cincinnati area is home to a good number of Fortune 500 companies. And, if the idea of combining the Cincinnati-Dayton DMAs ever takes hold, that will be a huge market.

But ultimately, less than 32K fans for football and less than 9K for basketball tells me all I need to know about fan support for the Bearcats. I had high hopes for them when they entered the Big East and on the field and on the court they did well, but their fan support is pathetic.

Anyway, I'm done. Hope to see you start commenting over on this ACC site: http://csnbbs.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=351

Cheers,
Neil

 

[orangetrojan]

Besides, I don't think any one in this thread is saying that if a true football power (a King or a Baron) were interested in the ACC not to take them and grab UConn instead.

But, if expansion does occur (which, as I said earlier would only be if the ACC loses a member or two) or if ND decides to join and they aren't pushing for someone to be #16 for joining in fully, then UConn makes the most sense for what the ACC is trying to accomplish in its efforts to establish the ACC as the conference of the entire east coast.

Agreed, this is exactly my point. The semantics of exactly whether or not certain areas of the northeast care about college FB more than others is trivial - in the grand scheme the whole area doesnt care, except for PSU as you pointed out, which in my mind makes expansion into the area a very low-value add.

The point I was getting at more is that it seemed as though some people wanted expansion just for the sake of expansion. Quality growth is far more important to me, besides the fact that I think this race to expand conferences will eventually turn on itself and conferences will end up getting smaller again. Maybe not in the next 2-5 years, but eventually people with money (the networks) will begin to realize they are using flawed metrics in evaluating how much to give these conferences. The easiest example of this is rutgers to the big 10. Rutgers and its local "media market" are complete fools gold. It only serves to dilute the already watered down product the BiG puts out on the field and it would not surprise me if sometime in the future cable contracts are written up in such a way that all of those "eyes" rutgers brings to the Big 10 network gets negated. And lets not forget that at some point, you actually have to field a quality product, because at the end of the day, thats what all this money is being thrown around for, right? It's college football's version of a housing bubble - the derivative values are being built on shaky fundamentals.

 

[riskylogic]

I will resist the strong urge to insert my grand overview of potential ACC expansion by settling for the synopsis:

First, no one comes in until ND goes all in.

Given that caveat, here are the options:

1) Cincy: Completes Midwestern pod, very good FB and MBB, other sports not so good, academics better than Lville but still low end, TV market needs work.
2) UConn: Completes Northeastern Pod (counting Miami), great MBB and other sports, FB bringing up the rear, academics decent, TV market decent
3) Navy/Gtown hybrid: Fills in Midatlantic gap, low end FB, high end MBB, academics excellent, national TV market, two excellent lax programs
4) All of the above. All the positives and negatives above, but will probably end up being two leagues joined by a TV contract and post-season play.