Coach K on Dan Patrick

[DoctorBombay]

I honestly can't think of a credable argument for K being a better coach than Boeheim.

After coaching together, K decided to copy everything Bkeheim does. That's pretty much proof of who the better coach is.

K might be the most successful coach of all time, but that's a much different argument from who the best coach is because these teams dont compete on a level playong field.

Basically Boeheim is the best basketball coach, and K is the best a working for a University where people buy him the best players.

Let's take it down a notch.
Im the biggest JB fan there is but even I couldn't make some of the statements I'm seeing with a straight face.
Besides, its an unwinnable argument. Its like trying to convince a Bears fan that the Giants are the better franchise because we've won more Super Bowls. That Bears fan will turn to other factors to frame the "who's better" argument in his favor. And no matter what, you can bet he'll never concede. Suffice to say, both guys are friends AND great HOF coaches. Isn't that enough? Sheesh

 

[Eric15]

But the 4-25 is more than just an idle stat. That says something about how he does against the best coaches. JMHO.

I've read many times on this board that Roy Williams isn't an elite coach, and I read earlier in this thread that Coach K is simply a "good" coach who has the benefit of attracting elite players. So we are sure that Izzo's record against Roy and K holds weight? Are those two really the cream of the crop?

 

[dasher]

I've read many times on this board that Roy Williams isn't an elite coach, and I read earlier in this thread that Coach K is simply a "good" coach who has the benefit of attracting elite players. So we are sure that Izzo's record against Roy and K holds weight? Are those two really the cream of the crop?

If they aren't elite, that makes it worse for Izzo.

 

[reedny]

Izzo is 4 and 25 against JB, Roy Williams and K. It is next to impossible to put him higher than Jb on that alone. They both have one title. JB and Calhoun are a very different debate. And quite a good one. Calhoun built UConn from really nothing. I have always thought that Calhoun did more with more than JB does. And JB does more with less than Calhoun does. I think Pitino is a bit better than both of them. Not a knock on them. They are both top 10 all time. I do wonder if hookers for recruits and 100k payouts may have been giving Pitino an edge.

[Slightly off-thread], there's little doubt that overall wins and tournament success are popular measures of coaching acumen. But as Eric15 is arguing, player talent is a big reason for the success of K, Calhoun and Williams. "Does-more-with-less" is a better metric. And by that score, JB is better than all three.

 

[OttoMets]

Did somebody change the label of the 'H0T Takes' thread to 'Coach K on Dan Patrick'?

Wow.

 

[OttoMets]

... I have always thought that Calhoun did more with more than JB does. And JB does more with less than Calhoun does. ...

This is a really good assessment. It always seemed like Calhoun's down years were worse than SU's. And on the other end, you could make that argument, too.

 

[HOFCeluck]

We are better than that. I think it might be 5 and 1. It's at least 4 -1

You’re right. Four wins.

1988 in NYC, 1990 and 1998 in Maui, and 2005 when he was at Texas Tech.

 

[Waltdods]

This is a really good assessment. It always seemed like Calhoun's down years were worse than SU's. And on the other end, you could make that argument, too.

Yea, I like that take too. That Boeheim guarantees a 20 win season is probably his defining feature, and it's a tremendous and probably unique one. (Tony Bennett seems like he may be heading the same way.)

 

[DoctorBombay]

You’re right. Four wins.

1988 in NYC, 1990 and 1998 in Maui, and 2005 when he was at Texas Tech.

Oh, but the one...the one.

 

[Waltdods]

No. That really isn't what you were doing. You were praising Izzo at the expense of our coach. I respect Izzo as a coach. His tournament record is terrific for the most part. And JB has his issues. But the 4-25 is more than just an idle stat. That says something about how he does against the best coaches. JMHO.

This is what I said about Izzo in the first post I made about him: "And how can Izzo not being on the level with Boeheim? Dude went to six final fours in ten years, has as many championships as JB, and I would say has a roughly equivalent talent pool (obviously with more talent this year than SU)." It literally starts by contending that Izzo and Boeheim are on the same level.

 

[OttoMets]

Yea, I like that take too. That Boeheim guarantees a 20 win season is probably his defining feature, and it's a tremendous and probably unique one. (Tony Bennett seems like he may be heading the same way.)

Yeah, there were a couple years where I remember really appreciating that - both the fact that 20 is Boeheim's apparent birthright and that he could out-do Calhoun when they've both got mediocre teams. Memory could be off, but 1997 and 2007 are two seasons that stick out in my head. When Calhoun's cupboard was bare, ~.500 basketball was a possibility. With Boeheim, he'd pull a rabbit out of a hat.

In addition to Boeheim's fantastic consistency, what was remarkable for the first several decades was his ability to do it with style. Even his worse teams could not only win 20 but they'd have the potential to upset or blow out anyone on a given night, and they looked good doing it. The change in that last aspect has been most startling to me this decade. This month, though, style points aren't on my radar.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Is it a coincidence that since we started grinding out wins in 2011-12 we've started to have more tournament success?

Some of our best teams prior to that were susceptible to losing rock fights. Look at Vermont in 2005 and Butler in 2010.

 

[Waltdods]

Yeah, there were a couple years where I remember really appreciating that - both the fact that 20 is Boeheim's apparent birthright and that he could out-do Calhoun when they've both got mediocre teams. Memory could be off, but 1997 and 2007 are two seasons that stick out in my head. When Calhoun's cupboard was bare, ~.500 basketball was a possibility. With Boeheim, he'd pull a rabbit out of a hat.

2001-02 is another good example, as is (obviously) this year. I would argue that 05-06 is actually a better example than 07 - it looks better because of Gerry's BET run, but that was a very limited team with a wee bit of a Gerry McNamara problem to boot.

 

[Cusefan95]

Izzo's taking a lot of shots right now, many highly deserved, but his record in the aggregate looks better than JB's too and it's hard to say he's getting significantly better players than SU. Pitino too - if Louisville was getting better players, that's because of Pitino not something automatic to that school.

I will agree that Pitino getting better players at Louisville had more to do with him than the draw of the school...and also had a lot to do with why he got fired and won’t coach another game in college.

 

[br801]

Izzo is 4 and 25 against JB, Roy Williams and K. It is next to impossible to put him higher than Jb on that alone.

JB is now 7-15 against Dixon. Does JB lose points for that?

 

[dasher]

JB is now 7-15 against Dixon. Does JB lose points for that?

I was waiting for someone to bring that up. First, he is 7-14 That other loss, JB wasn't there. Second, JB has faced Dixon in one Big east final and one NCAA tournament. Want to guess who won those games? I'll help, JB. Third, that is one guy. Everyone has one guy like that. Pedro Martinez couldn't get Enrique Wilson out. Izzo has got rolled by the three guys that he would be most compared with.

 

[djorange1989]

If you watch the 2010 Big East quarterfinal closely when AO goes down you can see Coach K in the second row with a BB gun.

I heard K had help from Jeff Gillooly and Tonya Harding

 

[br801]

I was waiting for someone to bring that up. First, he is 7-14 That other loss, JB wasn't there. Second, JB has faced Dixon in one Big east final and one NCAA tournament. Want to guess who won those games? I'll help, JB. Third, that is one guy. Everyone has one guy like that. Pedro Martinez couldn't get Enrique Wilson out. Izzo has got rolled by the three guys that he would be most compared with.

7-14, 7-15, whatever. Just seemed like a large enough sample to be significant.

Of course most of the legends we're talking about have that one guy. Mo Rivera couldn't get Edgar Martinez out. I'm no fan of Tom Izzo, but the guy has an incredible record in NCAAT play in terms of outperforming his seed, so it just seems strange to see so many people trying to run him down these days.

 

[dasher]

7-14, 7-15, whatever. Just seemed like a large enough sample to be significant.

Of course most of the legends we're talking about have that one guy. Mo Rivera couldn't get Edgar Martinez out. I'm no fan of Tom Izzo, but the guy has an incredible record in NCAAT play in terms of outperforming his seed, so it just seems strange to see so many people trying to run him down these days.

It's not running him down. It is a staggering stat. If I asked you, hey, what is Tom Izzo's record against JB, Roy and K after 29 games? You wouldn't guess anywhere near 4-25. I have said that he is a great coach. But that record is eye opening. I think the running him down has a lot more to do with off the court issues. He had a ass't coach that was accused of hitting a girl in the face in a bar. And a few other things of which I am sure you are aware.

 

[br801]

It's not running him down. It is a staggering stat. If I asked you, hey, what is Tom Izzo's record against JB, Roy and K after 29 games? You wouldn't guess anywhere near 4-25. I have said that he is a great coach. But that record is eye opening. I think the running him down has a lot more to do with off the court issues. He had a ass't coach that was accused of hitting a girl in the face in a bar. And a few other things of which I am sure you are aware.

I didn't mean you necessarily, more the media and their own fan base. You're right though, I wouldn't have guessed his record would be so poor against that group. But for me, it doesn't diminish his overall record to the point where I would put him on a significantly lower level than those others as a college basketball coach. The off court stuff, that's another story.

 

[SUskibum]

I was waiting for someone to bring that up. First, he is 7-14 That other loss, JB wasn't there. Second, JB has faced Dixon in one Big east final and one NCAA tournament. Want to guess who won those games? I'll help, JB. Third, that is one guy. Everyone has one guy like that. Pedro Martinez couldn't get Enrique Wilson out. Izzo has got rolled by the three guys that he would be most compared with.

Not to mention that we could find a dozen other coaches with Dixon’s resume and show JB has a strong record against them.

Crean, I am not talking about you so don’t worry.

(Yes i am)

 

[dasher]

Not to mention that we could find a dozen other coaches with Dixon’s resume and show JB has a strong record against them.

Crean, I am not talking about you so don’t worry.

(Yes i am)

Huggins, Beilein,