Coach K on Dan Patrick

[General20]

I gotta say I think the pro-Boeheim pendulum has swung a wee bit far in the last ten days. He's a great coach. I agree that he's a top-10 guy all time. I was arguing that two weeks ago when people wanted to fire him. But he's not the greatest coach of all time. Syracuse is on a great run in the tournament right now, but so is Loyola Chicago.

Just on K - K and Boeheim took over pretty similar programs - Duke had had a great three-year run immediately before K started but before that hadn't gone better than 14-12 in 7 seasons. Since then K's won 5 championships, and JB's won 1. And basically every other stat you can imagine is going to favor him too. Yes, he's getting better players, but there's not something automatic about that with Duke - it's because he's built the program as he has.

To my, reluctant, eyes, it's almost impossible to argue against Calhoun as the top of the list. What he did with that program is remarkable. Izzo's taking a lot of shots right now, many highly deserved, but his record in the aggregate looks better than JB's too and it's hard to say he's getting significantly better players than SU. Pitino too - if Louisville was getting better players, that's because of Pitino not something automatic to that school.

Coach K doesn't get the best players because of the program he built. He was able to build a great program because people set up the best recruits families for life if they chose Duke. No coach in America (other than K) has ever coached a team with as much talent as this year's Duke team with the possible exception of the Anthony Davis Kentucky team . If you put together a non-Duke ACC dream team they would be FAR less talented than this Duke team ... and K couldn't win the ACC, couldn't get a 1 seed. He has far superior players (because other people are cheating for him) and he underachieves, relative to the talent disparity.

I was being hyperbolic when I said Boeheim is the greatest coach ever. Truthfully, its very hard to differentiate from the outside between really great coaches. Boeheim is definitely in that top group of coaches, but whether he is slightly better than Calhoun who is also in that top group (who Boeheim has a winning record against) or the original Thompson who is also in that top group (who has a winning record against Boeheim) is really hard to tell.

I can tell you that K is not in that top group, and neither is Izzo.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Game day coaching I think K is about the 4th best coach in the ACC. JB, Roy, and Bennett are all better strategically. Coach K especially at this point of his career is more of a CEO type coach.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I gotta say I think the pro-Boeheim pendulum has swung a wee bit far in the last ten days. He's a great coach. I agree that he's a top-10 guy all time. I was arguing that two weeks ago when people wanted to fire him. But he's not the greatest coach of all time. Syracuse is on a great run in the tournament right now, but so is Loyola Chicago.

I'm not arguing that JB is the best ever, but even your Loyola example shows how good he is. Loyola is an 11 and has won 2 games. They received votes in coaches poll in 9 different weeks of this season (this makes them more highly regarded/"ranked" than Syracuse's team this year). JB, as a 10 and 11 seed in his last two tournaments has won 7 out of 8 in the tournament. The runs are not similar in any way.

 

[Eric15]

After coaching together, K decided to copy everything Bkeheim does.

Can you please elaborate on this with some specifics? I know Coach K has utilized some zone which is certainly a testament to Boeheim's brilliance in that area. What else has K incorporated? If he copied "everything" then what new things are you seeing on the offensive end from K that supports that argument?

 

[Waltdods]

Coach K doesn't get the best players because of the program he built. He was able to build a great program because people set up the best recruits families for life if they chose Duke. No coach in America (other than K) has ever coached a team with as much talent as this year's Duke team with the possible exception of the Anthony Davis Kentucky team . If you put together a non-Duke ACC dream team they would be FAR less talented than this Duke team ... and K couldn't win the ACC, couldn't get a 1 seed. He has far superior players (because other people are cheating for him) and he underachieves, relative to the talent disparity.

I was being hyperbolic when I said Boeheim is the greatest coach ever. Truthfully, its very hard to differentiate from the outside between really great coaches. Boeheim is definitely in that top group of coaches, but whether he is slightly better than Calhoun who is also in that top group (who Boeheim has a winning record against) or the original Thompson who is also in that top group (who has a winning record against Boeheim) is really hard to tell.

I can tell you that K is not in that top group, and neither is Izzo.

There's a lot in here I find unconvincing, and I'm not particularly fond of K, Izzo, or Calhoun. But just to focus on one piece - what is the possible argument for Boeheim over Calhoun? And how can Izzo not being on the level with Boeheim? Dude went to six final fours in ten years, has as many championships as JB, and I would say has a roughly equivalent talent pool (obviously with more talent this year than SU).

Finally, an awful lot of this argument on K is premised on an assumption that Duke is cheating much more than everyone else in college basketball, which strikes me as not a particularly likely bet. Why exactly are Duke boosters so much more effective than, say, Indiana or Kansas or Syracuse boosters?

 

[HOFCeluck]

Why exactly are Duke boosters so much more effective than, say, Indiana or Kansas or Syracuse boosters?

For as long as we were investigated I would think the NCAA would've found something bad our boosters did.

 

[dasher]

I gotta say I think the pro-Boeheim pendulum has swung a wee bit far in the last ten days. He's a great coach. I agree that he's a top-10 guy all time. I was arguing that two weeks ago when people wanted to fire him. But he's not the greatest coach of all time. Syracuse is on a great run in the tournament right now, but so is Loyola Chicago.

Just on K - K and Boeheim took over pretty similar programs - Duke had had a great three-year run immediately before K started but before that hadn't gone better than 14-12 in 7 seasons. Since then K's won 5 championships, and JB's won 1. And basically every other stat you can imagine is going to favor him too. Yes, he's getting better players, but there's not something automatic about that with Duke - it's because he's built the program as he has.

To my, reluctant, eyes, it's almost impossible to argue against Calhoun as the top of the list. What he did with that program is remarkable. Izzo's taking a lot of shots right now, many highly deserved, but his record in the aggregate looks better than JB's too and it's hard to say he's getting significantly better players than SU. Pitino too - if Louisville was getting better players, that's because of Pitino not something automatic to that school.

Izzo is 4 and 25 against JB, Roy Williams and K. It is next to impossible to put him higher than Jb on that alone. They both have one title. JB and Calhoun are a very different debate. And quite a good one. Calhoun built UConn from really nothing. I have always thought that Calhoun did more with more than JB does. And JB does more with less than Calhoun does. I think Pitino is a bit better than both of them. Not a knock on them. They are both top 10 all time. I do wonder if hookers for recruits and 100k payouts may have been giving Pitino an edge.

 

[GoSU96]

JB is not even playing a 2-3 zone anymore. It looks like a circle or amoeba overhead.

Very match up based on the article the other day. Nothing new, but the specifics of what shots to give different guys and where to let them have the ball was revealing. Your open, and you might make this or the next one, but at the end of the day the shot I'm "giving" this guy is low percentage for him.

 

[Waltdods]

I'm not arguing that JB is the best ever, but even your Loyola example shows how good he is. Loyola is an 11 and has won 2 games. They received votes in coaches poll in 9 different weeks of this season (this makes them more highly regarded/"ranked" than Syracuse's team this year). JB, as a 10 and 11 seed in his last two tournaments has won 7 out of 8 in the tournament. The runs are not similar in any way.

If an argument is based on part on the premise that Loyola Chicago has a more talented team than Syracuse, I think it needs some rethinking.

Look, this is a great run. Boeheim is a great coach. But he was also a great coach when Syracuse crapped out early in 2010, and when he went four years without a tournament win in the mid-aughts. There is a lot of luck and contingency in small sample sizes, even when those samples come in the NCAA tournament. (And of course he missed the tournament last year, and barely made it in the other two years.) That's really all I'm arguing - not that he's anything less than a great coach, but that he's not the greatest (or better than K).

 

[HOFCeluck]

Izzo is 4 and 25 against JB, Roy Williams and K. It is next to impossible to put him higher than Jb on that alone. They both have one title. JB and Calhoun are a very different debate. And quite a good one. Calhoun built UConn from really nothing. I have always thought that Calhoun did more with more than JB does. And JB does more with less than Calhoun does. I think Pitino is a bit better than both of them. Not a knock on them. They are both top 10 all time. I do wonder if hookers for recruits and 100k payouts may have been giving Pitino an edge.

Just because I was curious I do think JB is 13-14 against K, Izzo, and Williams. Which isn't that bad.

 

[dasher]

There's a lot in here I find unconvincing, and I'm not particularly fond of K, Izzo, or Calhoun. But just to focus on one piece - what is the possible argument for Boeheim over Calhoun? And how can Izzo not being on the level with Boeheim? Dude went to six final fours in ten years, has as many championships as JB, and I would say has a roughly equivalent talent pool (obviously with more talent this year than SU).

Finally, an awful lot of this argument on K is premised on an assumption that Duke is cheating much more than everyone else in college basketball, which strikes me as not a particularly likely bet. Why exactly are Duke boosters so much more effective than, say, Indiana or Kansas or Syracuse boosters?

I just replied to your question re Izzo. Izzo is a great coach. But to go 4-25 against K, Roy and JB, is honestly awful. I don't think they have really done much since early 2000's in the tournament. Duke's ability to get the top 3 recruits in this years class seems out of whack to me. Wasn't it S.I. that had a picture of their player's parking lot a few years ago. Quite the collection of cars those college students had. There was a article posted here about the recruitment of one of their student athletes just this week.

 

[dasher]

If an argument is based on part on the premise that Loyola Chicago has a more talented team than Syracuse, I think it needs some rethinking.

Look, this is a great run. Boeheim is a great coach. But he was also a great coach when Syracuse crapped out early in 2010, and when he went four years without a tournament win in the mid-aughts. There is a lot of luck and contingency in small sample sizes, even when those samples come in the NCAA tournament. (And of course he missed the tournament last year, and barely made it in the other two years.) That's really all I'm arguing - not that he's anything less than a great coach, but that he's not the greatest (or better than K).

Crapped out early in 2010? We went to the sweet 16 and were playing without our starting center. And at that, lost late.

 

[Eric15]

I don't think they have really done much since early 2000's in the tournament.

Michigan State? They went to the Final Four in 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2015.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I don't think they have really done much since early 2000's in the tournament.

Define "much."

 

[HOFCeluck]

Michigan State? They went to the Final Four in 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2015.

In 05, 10, and 15 They were a 5,5, and 7 seed respectively.

 

[dasher]

Just because I was curious I do think JB is 13-14 against K, Izzo, and Williams. Which isn't that bad.

Now throw in Bobby Knight, Bob Huggins, John Beilein and what is his record? I would love to know Izzo's record against those three as well.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Now throw in Bobby Knight, Bob Huggins, John Beilein and what is his record? I would love to know Izzo's record against those three as well.

I think we're 3-1 vs Bobby Knight.

 

[dasher]

Define "much."

4 final fours. lol He did better than I thought

 

[dasher]

I think we're 3-1 vs Bobby Knight.

We are better than that. I think it might be 5 and 1. It's at least 4 -1

 

[Waltdods]

I just replied to your question re Izzo. Izzo is a great coach. But to go 4-25 against K, Roy and JB, is honestly awful. I don't think they have really done much since early 2000's in the tournament. Duke's ability to get the top 3 recruits in this years class seems out of whack to me. Wasn't it S.I. that had a picture of their player's parking lot a few years ago. Quite the collection of cars those college students had. There was a article posted here about the recruitment of one of their student athletes just this week.

Under Izzo, MSU has been to the Final Four in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2005, 2009, 2010, 2015. So they had that awesome run in the early 2000s, and then have been merely great since then. Even putting aside that three-year run, Izzo went to three Final 4s between Syracuse appearances between 03 and 13. And they were in four consecutive sweet 16s (with one FF) between 2012 and 2015.

I posted earlier today that Syracuse is on pace to have its best decade of NCAA success, and so far has 16 tournament wins this decade. MSU had 25 wins in the '00s (and the year before that decade started won the title). MSU is off pace this decade, but still has 13 tournament wins so far, as many has Syracuse had in the 90s or 00s.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Can you please elaborate on this with some specifics? I know Coach K has utilized some zone which is certainly a testament to Boeheim's brilliance in that area. What else has K incorporated? If he copied "everything" then what new things are you seeing on the offensive end from K that supports that argument?

Some zone?

Their entire defense is zone based off ours. They haven’t played man to man since January.

 

[dasher]

Under Izzo, MSU has been to the Final Four in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2005, 2009, 2010, 2015. So they had that awesome run in the early 2000s, and then have been merely great since then. Even putting aside that three-year run, Izzo went to three Final 4s between Syracuse appearances between 03 and 13. And they were in four consecutive sweet 16s (with one FF) between 2012 and 2015.

I posted earlier today that Syracuse is on pace to have its best decade of NCAA success, and so far has 16 tournament wins this decade. MSU had 25 wins in the '00s (and the year before that decade started won the title). MSU is off pace this decade, but still has 13 tournament wins so far, as many has Syracuse had in the 90s or 00s.

How do you respond to the 4-25 record head to head against JB, Roy and K ?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Izzo hasn’t been past the first weekend the past 3 years. Maybe that’s an indication the Big Ten sucks. I mean we beat a team he lost to by 25 and beat him outright. JB is 5-1 against him.

 

[Waltdods]

How do you respond to the 4-25 record head to head against JB, Roy and K ?

I mean, it's not a great stat, but I'd rather have a Final Four every other year than a winning record against Roy Williams.

I suspect that part of this is that Izzo plays a very aggressive pre-season schedule and focuses more on feeling his team out than winning. This was always the joke - that MSU would be 8-4 by early December and then in the Final Four in April, and I think there's something to it.

That said, I don't particularly want to defend Izzo, who I don't like. My whole point here has been to push back against the sudden canonization of our coach, who again I think is very good but imperfect.

 

[dasher]

I mean, it's not a great stat, but I'd rather have a Final Four every other year than a winning record against Roy Williams.

I suspect that part of this is that Izzo plays a very aggressive pre-season schedule and focuses more on feeling his team out than winning. This was always the joke - that MSU would be 8-4 by early December and then in the Final Four in April, and I think there's something to it.

That said, I don't particularly want to defend Izzo, who I don't like. My whole point here has been to push back against the sudden canonization of our coach, who again I think is very good but imperfect.

No. That really isn't what you were doing. You were praising Izzo at the expense of our coach. I respect Izzo as a coach. His tournament record is terrific for the most part. And JB has his issues. But the 4-25 is more than just an idle stat. That says something about how he does against the best coaches. JMHO.