Curse of Coach P

supp

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P was let go at the right time, IMO. His tenure was… tired.
It was the WAY it was done, AND the guy who replaced him, that was the real mistake.

Agreed. The subsequent decision to hire GRob was far more damaging. What a disaster. That Iowa goalline stand perfectly summed up the ineptitude of that era.
 

Pyle

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I think there is a lot that has been forgotten going back to the 1999-2004 timeframe - a lot of context. After McNabb, recruiting dropped off a lot, and not just at QB, which was the most egregious failure. Yes, he had Ray Rice and Courtney Greene lined up to come in, but the talent level had been diminishing. There were also a bunch of weird decisions (burning Morant's redshirt for one play, starting Joe Fields against Purdue, kicking a FG down 5 at BC with 2 minutes to go) and really bad (BAD) losses. I mean regular major @ss-whoopings (anyone at VaTech in 1999?, Miami 2001?, the aforementioned Purdue game among several others). He lost to Temple and Rutgers. I remember a horrible Pitt loss for homecoming where the team just didn't show up (it was 48-3 at one point). McNabb's last 3 years each had losses that shouldn't have happened that ruined chances at very special seasons. Even the final "successful" season was salvaged by arguably the best all-around single game performance ever at SU by Diamond Ferri, otherwise, we never would have been able to enjoy the bowl game against GT (14-51).
In short, it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to a mediocre season that is being painted by a lot of posters.

And, it's dishonest to use the hiring of Gerg as supporting evidence for keeping Coach P. Those were two separate decisions. The fact Gross made a ridiculously incompetent hire does not change that SU football had been in decline.
Know who else was in decline at the same time? Know who rode out a few bad years and ended up back in the top 25? Ped St, that's who. The calls to fire JoePa were growing around the same time the calls for P started here. Fact is we were woefully behind in the facilities race. All that recruiting fall-off that happpened? I don't blame P, I blame the AD department who took 10 more years to invest. P was 107-59-1 when he got fired. Sorry but every coach we've had since, including DM, can't even hold P's jock. You don't think Clemson get a few stinkers here and there? They lost to us during a 4 win season and lost to Pitt the year before that I think. Crap happens. I get it losing to Temple was bad, and it was. Diamond Ferri? If not for a string of those types of games from ED we aren't even debating Dino's tenure, he already gone. P knew how to win here when almost nobody else seems to be able to. The only person that's come close was basically using P's model. Alot of analysts and other coaches thought we were stupid for firing P. They were right.
 

dollarbill44

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Know who else was in decline at the same time? Know who rode out a few bad years and ended up back in the top 25? Ped St, that's who. The calls to fire JoePa were growing around the same time the calls for P started here. Fact is we were woefully behind in the facilities race. All that recruiting fall-off that happpened? I don't blame P, I blame the AD department who took 10 more years to invest. P was 107-59-1 when he got fired. Sorry but every coach we've had since, including DM, can't even hold P's jock. You don't think Clemson get a few stinkers here and there? They lost to us during a 4 win season and lost to Pitt the year before that I think. Crap happens. I get it losing to Temple was bad, and it was. Diamond Ferri? If not for a string of those types of games from ED we aren't even debating Dino's tenure, he already gone. P knew how to win here when almost nobody else seems to be able to. The only person that's come close was basically using P's model. Alot of analysts and other coaches thought we were stupid for firing P. They were right.
And I've posted on here multiple times that there were multiple factors involved in the decline. To claim none of the blame rests with coach P is silly. So is comparing Diamond Ferri and ED. Dungey routinely carried SU. Diamond Ferri had one game that anyone remembers and it was one for the ages.

PSU is never down for long. You can't even mention SU and PSU together in that regard. Also, JoePa was how old at the time and couldn't walk right or see straight???

I'm not really sure why you brought Babers into a discussion about Coach P.
 

Pyle

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And I've posted on here multiple times that there were multiple factors involved in the decline. To claim none of the blame rests with coach P is silly. So is comparing Diamond Ferri and ED. Dungey routinely carried SU. Diamond Ferri had one game that anyone remembers and it was one for the ages.

PSU is never down for long. You can't even mention SU and PSU together in that regard. Also, JoePa was how old at the time and couldn't walk right or see straight???

I'm not really sure why you brought Babers into a discussion about Coach P.
Dino, Belicheat, someone else? I simply used it as an example of a coach who succeeded due to a having somebody do something above and beyond. Don't look for a deep meaning there. You can justify it or explain it however you want, we pulled the plug too early on a guy with over 100 wins at a small NE private school. You don't have to believe that, myself and many analysts/coaches of the time believe otherwise. The fanbase was spoiled like a Kardashian on xmas morning and threw a fit when they didn't get the 24k gold princess cut diamond, instead we had a square cut diamond on 16k gold that we threw in the toilet and some fans still think it was the right move. Just admit that you might have had that one wrong. If hiring Gerg was the true downfall of the program then we would have had more than 4 winning seasons since P was fired over 15 years and 4 coaches ago. Drives me insane that people still justify firing him with only 1 losing season in his entire tenure.
 

Cuseregular

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Dino, Belicheat, someone else? I simply used it as an example of a coach who succeeded due to a having somebody do something above and beyond. Don't look for a deep meaning there. You can justify it or explain it however you want, we pulled the plug too early on a guy with over 100 wins at a small NE private school. You don't have to believe that, myself and many analysts/coaches of the time believe otherwise. The fanbase was spoiled like a Kardashian on xmas morning and threw a fit when they didn't get the 24k gold princess cut diamond, instead we had a square cut diamond on 16k gold that we threw in the toilet and some fans still think it was the right move. Just admit that you might have had that one wrong. If hiring Gerg was the true downfall of the program then we would have had more than 4 winning seasons since P was fired over 15 years and 4 coaches ago. Drives me insane that people still justify firing him with only 1 losing season in his entire tenure.
P was good for his time, it came and went. His post SU HC career suggests that. Still would like to see him honored here someday and somehow though.
 

DoctorBombay

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Dino, Belicheat, someone else? I simply used it as an example of a coach who succeeded due to a having somebody do something above and beyond. Don't look for a deep meaning there. You can justify it or explain it however you want, we pulled the plug too early on a guy with over 100 wins at a small NE private school. You don't have to believe that, myself and many analysts/coaches of the time believe otherwise. The fanbase was spoiled like a Kardashian on xmas morning and threw a fit when they didn't get the 24k gold princess cut diamond, instead we had a square cut diamond on 16k gold that we threw in the toilet and some fans still think it was the right move. Just admit that you might have had that one wrong. If hiring Gerg was the true downfall of the program then we would have had more than 4 winning seasons since P was fired over 15 years and 4 coaches ago. Drives me insane that people still justify firing him with only 1 losing season in his entire tenure.
Not sure I’ve seen anyone argue that it WASN’T a mistake to fire P. It’s happened in plenty of places besides SU, in all manner of different sports.
My take is that this is not an absolutist science, since for every P who got canned too fast, there’s a Bobby Bowden who stayed too long. If anything the P saga should teach us not to take a great coach for granted…they are a rare commodity and don’t come a dime a dozen!
(See; Boeheim, James A.- ref; “Calls to step aside”.
 

tep624

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If he wasn't fired, we would have had Ray Rice, and who knows how good of a 4 years we would have had.
We would have had Ray Rice AND Courtney Greene.

But...we had a horrendous QB Depth chart and as bad if not worse of a OL depth chart. P's last 3 recruiting classes:

QB
2002 - Perry Patterson
2003 - Matt Hale (I forgot about him and the whole Joe Dailey saga and wished it had stayed that way lol)
2004 - Joe Fields

For the 2005 season, that was our actual depth chart with Perry Patterson the starter.

OL
2002 - Justin Outten, Brandon Darlington, Chris Thorner, Kader Drame, Quin Ojinnaka, AJ Mitchell
2003 - Steve Franklin, Eugene Newsome, Marvin McCall, Carroll Madison
2004 - Ryan Durand, Ryan Ehrie, Steven Simms, Corey Chavers, Kurt Falke, David Bouchard

The quality OL on that list are Ojinnaka, Franklin and Durand, and Madison and Outten were good enough to be on the 2 deep in a decent line group. But that's about it unless my memory escapes me.

A lot of these guys were non-factors or were moved to other positions.
 
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elimunelson

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And I've posted on here multiple times that there were multiple factors involved in the decline. To claim none of the blame rests with coach P is silly. So is comparing Diamond Ferri and ED. Dungey routinely carried SU. Diamond Ferri had one game that anyone remembers and it was one for the ages.

PSU is never down for long. You can't even mention SU and PSU together in that regard. Also, JoePa was how old at the time and couldn't walk right or see straight???

I'm not really sure why you brought Babers into a discussion about Coach P.
The counter to this is a Kirk Ferentz rejuvenated second act for Paul. He may have been able to rebuild football success w better operational support.

the big east he didn’t compete in was easier than the one he did joust with imo. He didn’t have to deal w TECH Miami and BC anymore.

We all can agree that 2005 should have been the put up or shut up season for P. After a bowl and ridiculously almost getting into BCS he was owed one more. Absent 8 wins he was gonzo at that point. Maybe they hire Harbrough or a Chip Kelly at that point
 

tep624

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The counter to this is a Kirk Ferentz rejuvenated second act for Paul. He may have been able to rebuild football success w better operational support.

the big east he didn’t compete in was easier than the one he did joust with imo. He didn’t have to deal w TECH Miami and BC anymore.

We all can agree that 2005 should have been the put up or shut up season for P. After a bowl and ridiculously almost getting into BCS he was owed one more. Absent 8 wins he was gonzo at that point. Maybe they hire Harbrough or a Chip Kelly at that point
I agree with this although if you look at his last 3 recruiting classes 2002-2004 I'm not sure what his 2005 would have looked like. Even if he did have Ray Rice and Courtney Greene.
 

Dinkyspond

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I believe there was a good linebacker that was coming also.
We also lost the DB from Westchester County who was an All-Pro with the Patriots for years, can't remember his name Courty or something like that. He went to Rutgers with Rice. I think he had a brother too in the NFL who might have come to SU also.
 

Dinkyspond

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Again, in hindsight it was a bad decision. But being the entitled fan and fanbase we’d become, it was not a stretch that most folks, yes MOST, wanted him gone. I remember years we were ranked and inevitably lose an early season game to drop out of NC consideration. Couple that with the blowouts we saw that year, and yes, our spoiled fans wanted a change.

ACC or CFP?? Playoffs? I just hope…

How about they put together a winning season before we start worrying about an ACC title and CFP.
I'll take a .500 record. My expectations are that low.
 

OrangeDW

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After nearly twenty years of disappointment I’m officially resigned myself to the firing of Coach P. Canned following a bowl game which we can only dream of making these days. It’s like the Cubs and the goat. Thoughts?
Didnt we lose that bowl game by 50? To Georgia Tech?

Let’s not frame that like the program was just rolling in momentum.
 

OrangeDW

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In 2004, our expectations were to go better than .500 in most years. We’d been to 2 bowl games in his last 5 years.

Program was slipping and we were right to want to be better.

The mistake was hiring Robinson and becoming the worst program in the country.

“If we hired a good coach in 2004” should be the real “what if.”

Those who say we should’ve given P another year since it was late and there were less candidates out there have a valid point though.
 

baggerbob

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I’m so glad this fanbase is still debating the firing of Coach P.

However, I prefer to debate the firing of Frank Maloney. I really think he was on the cusp of greatness. Mac gets too much credit.
In 2004, our expectations were to go better than .500 in most years. We’d been to 2 bowl games in his last 5 years.

Program was slipping and we were right to want to be better.

The mistake was hiring Robinson and becoming the worst program in the country.

“If we hired a good coach in 2004” should be the real “what if.”

Those who say we should’ve given P another year since it was late and there were less candidates out there have a valid point though.
The mistake was having no one who cared or knew anything about eastern football in charge of the University, and Athletic Department.
 

All4SU

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Fair enough. But I submit P wasn't canned because of some alumni hissy-fit. The writing was on the wall for years. I distinctly remember getting a fundraising call from SU 2 years before he was canned, and my reaction at the time was; "I'm not giving a penny until the AD fires Paul Pasqualoni"!
Look, agree or disagree, in hindsight the decision was bad. But again, if put in proper context I can definitely understand why, and I agreed with the decision. It was time. JMHO
So two years before Coach P was “canned” SU was coming off of a 10-3 season, in what was probably Coach P’s greatest season coaching considering the deficiencies at QB. Had SU - and donors - supported the program fully at that point, rather than digging their stubborn heels in, the trajectory of SU football might have been remarkably different. JMHO
 

OrangeDW

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So two years before Coach P was “canned” SU was coming off of a 10-3 season, in what was probably Coach P’s greatest season coaching considering the deficiencies at QB. Had SU - and donors - supported the program fully at that point, rather than digging their stubborn heels in, the trajectory of SU football might have been remarkably different. JMHO
You may be right. It was actually 3 years later though. 4-8, 6-6, and 6-6 the next 3 years.
 

kirbivore

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In 2004, our expectations were to go better than .500 in most years. We’d been to 2 bowl games in his last 5 years.

Program was slipping and we were right to want to be better.

The mistake was hiring Robinson and becoming the worst program in the country.

“If we hired a good coach in 2004” should be the real “what if.”

Those who say we should’ve given P another year since it was late and there were less candidates out there have a valid point though.

By the time the new president and AD started their jobs it was way too late in the hiring cycle. At that point let P finish out the deal and reevaluate after 2005. The way recruiting was going having a lame duck coach wasn't that much of a downgrade.
 

All4SU

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You may be right. It was actually 3 years later though. 4-8, 6-6, and 6-6 the next 3 years.
Depends on when during the year you got the call.
 

tep624

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We also lost the DB from Westchester County who was an All-Pro with the Patriots for years, can't remember his name Courty or something like that. He went to Rutgers with Rice. I think he had a brother too in the NFL who might have come to SU also.
You’re thinking of Courtney Greene. He verballed to SU as part of the 2004 class and didn’t qualify, so he reclassified to 2005 and qualified. He then committed to Rutgers. He was a HS teammate of Ray Rice at New Rochelle and was drafted and played a few years in the NFL.

The McCourty brothers were from NJ and both 2005 recruits but they were not committed to Coach P’s 2005 class. We never offered either and they both committed to Rutgers a few weeks before Coach P was fired.
 

FloridaFan

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You may be right. It was actually 3 years later though. 4-8, 6-6, and 6-6 the next 3 years.
Wonder what made back then different then today in terms of what people expect
 
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