DB Ja'Had Carter / Portal from Ohio State to NC State

[anomander]

Here's reason for optimism:

Coming out of HS, Bellamy signed with Notre Dame, but also had elite offers from Clemson, Penn State, LSU, Michigan, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Tennessee, as well as tons of quality offers from Nebraska, Wisconsin, Pitt, Louisville, VT, UVa, etc.

Gould originally committed to USC, then switched to Nebraska [over Alabama, Penn State, Clemson, Florida State, Florida, Michigan, Texas, Oklahoma, as well as Ole Miss, Pitt, Michigan State, VT, Maryland, Louisville, Tennessee, Wisconsin, etc.].

To say nothing about the respective pedigrees of both Martin / Farmer.

Duce and Carter were absolutely losses. We replaced them with higher rated prospects. Will they be on par? Stay tuned -- but the sky isn't falling.

Once you get into year 2 in college those offers mean nothing if you haven’t cracked the starting unit yet. I think the best pick up was Farmer since he has already shown to be successful vs this competition.

 

[RF2044]

Once you get into year 2 in college those offers mean nothing if you haven’t cracked the starting unit yet. I think the best pick up was Farmer since he has already shown to be successful vs this competition.

Unduly pessimistic.

There's a difference between being a second stringer at a factory versus somewhere like Rutgers.

Get the best athletes you can, period. Those kids were fantastic "gets" for our program, and elevated the talent level.

 

[Cuseregular]

Totally disagree that it was a fixable loss. We definitely took a set back losing Carter and Duce. Ja'had didn't get the credit he deserved last year. I thought he could have been most improved in the entire ACC. We now have guys in Carter and Duce who would be 3 year starters who seem to be #1 at their position at both LSU and tOSU. Sounds like most the DB's we got to replace are on 2nd string. How aren't those losses?

Yep agree. Let’s hope what’s optimistically posted below comes to fruition.

No been saying if we had the 4 d players we lost to the portal we’d be not only good this year but top 10-15 good. Maybe still. Regardless even with all that still optimistic to a degree we haven’t seen in a while here.

 

[Trueblue25]

Dino loves defense and has consistently fielded impressive db units. I got plenty of faith in him whether Nicks here or not.

 

[sufandu]

Unduly pessimistic.

There's a difference between being a second stringer at a factory versus somewhere like Rutgers.

Get the best athletes you can, period. Those kids were fantastic "gets" for our program, and elevated the talent level.

I think the question is, are they as good or better than who we lost? If not then we didn't elevate our talent level. We may have just lessened the blow. Some skepticism is understandable. If they are talent upgrades over who was lost, why did the factories not go after them? Are we better talent evaluators? Or did the factories go after the same guys and we just won those battles?

 

[Orangezoo]

Just looking at the numbers our passing D didn't set the world on fire last year to be fair( at least numbers wise).

71st in Pass defense efficiency
T-68 in Interceptions
58th in passing first downs given up

All that with still being 21st in total defense overall and 40th in total sacks.

 

[Trueblue25]

Just looking at the numbers our passing D didn't set the world on fire last year to be fair( at least numbers wise).

71st in Pass defense efficiency
T-68 in Interceptions
58th in passing first downs given up

All that with still being 21st in total defense overall and 40th in total sacks.

D Line overachieved last year and our linebackers were filthy.

 

[Orangezoo]

D Line overachieved last year and our linebackers were filthy.

Yep. Even with all the injuries too.. which did of course have a heavy impact.

 

[Chip]

Once you get into year 2 in college those offers mean nothing if you haven’t cracked the starting unit yet. I think the best pick up was Farmer since he has already shown to be successful vs this competition.

In my opinion, we take a short term hit this year at DB, but get a long term gain with the transfers in. If we stay relatively healthy at DL and LB, they should be able to shoulder more of the burden. As should the offense.

Geer is the one that bothers me. Duce and Jahad would have only been here for 2023 and then gone anyway.

 

[SuFTW]

I think the question is, are they as good or better than who we lost? If not then we didn't elevate our talent level. We may have just we lessened the blow. Some skepticism is understandable. If they are talent upgrades over who was lost, why did the factories not go after them? Are we better talent evaluators? Or did the factories go after the same guys and we just won those battles?

I think you need to not just consider how well the new transfers perform, but also who takes over the starting roles. The new starters are the ones effectively replacing Carter and Chestnut in the lineup.

 

[money3189]

Not sure why some automatically equate talent with production. A unit can be just as productive or better with lesser talent. For ex, sometimes the more talented player makes mental mistakes that can effect the cohesion of the whole unit.

 

[anomander]

Not sure why some automatically equate talent with production. A unit can be just as productive or better with lesser talent. For ex, sometimes the more talented player makes mental mistakes that can effect the cohesion of the whole unit.

Are you saying the 2 talented players we lost weren’t productive in the 2 and 3 years they respectively started?

 

[sufandu]

I think you need to not just consider how well the new transfers perform, but also who takes over the starting roles. The new starters are the ones effectively replacing Carter and Chestnut in the lineup.

Sure. But if it's not the transfers, then that's a stronger indicator that the talent level wasn't upgraded.

 

[sufandu]

Not sure why some automatically equate talent with production. A unit can be just as productive or better with lesser talent. For ex, sometimes the more talented player makes mental mistakes that can effect the cohesion of the whole unit.

I don't think people are talking just about physical talent, but how the player is as a whole. That's the comparison is being made between us losing our starters and replacing them with some elses backups.

 

[blizz]

Why we never went Tucker 3 plays in a row after that 3rd quarter pick is a mystery to me.

"Just throw it every time. Sixty percent of the time it works every time!" - Aaron Rogers

 

[RF2044]

I think the question is, are they as good or better than who we lost? If not then we didn't elevate our talent level. We may have just lessened the blow. Some skepticism is understandable. If they are talent upgrades over who was lost, why did the factories not go after them? Are we better talent evaluators? Or did the factories go after the same guys and we just won those battles?

And if so, then they are -- and we did.

The board would have been doing back hand springs down Marshall Street if we'd landed one of those types of guys out of HS. We landed two, plus a group of other highly rated transfers.

The overall talent / depth have both been elevated. Which is a good thing.

And it doesn't imply that Carter / Chestnut weren't good players.

We already know why Gould / Bellamy both came here, why they ended up together, and why proximity to home was an input in their decision.

 

[sufandu]

And if so, then they are -- and we did.

The board would have been doing back hand springs down Marshall Street if we'd landed one of those types of guys out of HS. We landed two, plus a group of other highly rated transfers.

The overall talent / depth have both been elevated. Which is a good thing.

And it doesn't imply that Carter / Chestnut weren't good players.

We already know why Gould / Bellamy both came here, why they ended up together, and why proximity to home was an input in their decision.

I'm not denying that we would have been elated about landing them out of high school. I'm saying that once they get to college high school rating is meaningless. There have been plenty of highly rated guys that didn't pan out. It sounds like the guys we lost may be on track to beat out guys on their new teams that were rated higher than them coming out of high school. So does their high school rating still matter? I'm taking a wait and see approach. Until I see something different on the field, I'll believe the guys we lost are better than the guys replacing them. If that ends up being the case, I agree that depth is improved, if not starting talent.

 

[RF2044]

I'm not denying that we would have been elated about landing them out of high school. I'm saying that once they get to college high school rating is meaningless. There have been plenty of highly rated guys that didn't pan out. It sounds like the guys we lost may be on track to beat out guys on their new teams that were rated higher than them coming out of high school. So does their high school rating still matter? I'm taking a wait and see approach. Until I see something different on the field, I'll believe the guys we lost are better than the guys replacing them. If that ends up being the case, I agree that depth is improved, if not starting talent.

Look, people can't have it both ways.

During recruiting, there is a significant undercurrent of posters who complain that some of the prospects we land don't have a multitude of offers, and ring alarm bells over that.

Then when we go out and land kids with not just a lot of offers, but ELITE offers the story changes to HS ratings are meaningless.

The reality is, the offer list is an important indicator. It isn't the only one, but it is a measuring stick that tells us how those players were evaluated and what level they were projected to play at. When I see a kid who has offers from Alabama, Clemson, LSU, Ohio State, USC, Michigan, etc. it says a lot.

When I see multiple players like that added to the secondary, it's a good sign. Discounting them by pointing to them being "second string" at those factories when they were true frosh is what's meaningless, IMO,

I wouldn't read too much into early two-deep projections. Those newcomers are being immersed into a new system, and have only been practicing here a few weeks. Of course the incumbents are ahead. Eventually, the cream will rise to the top. And whether those players are the new ones or some of the guys who were already on the roster, I'm not that worried because I really like the talent we've amassed in the secondary.

We've been adding quality components for SEVERAL years -- guys like Oliver, who hasn't seen the field much. And the new guys add to that talent / quality. May the best players win the PT.

It's okay to be excited about the potential of the secondary as a positional unit, given the personnel.

 

[Newhouser]

Just looking at the numbers our passing D didn't set the world on fire last year to be fair( at least numbers wise).

71st in Pass defense efficiency
T-68 in Interceptions
58th in passing first downs given up

All that with still being 21st in total defense overall and 40th in total sacks.

Those are interesting numbers. For some reason the lasting memory for our D against legit people was ND basically saying "we are running it here, good luck stopping us" and FSU saying " we are going to get ...oh let's say 12 yards on this play" and doing it play after play after play.

 

[CuseLooch]

Look, people can't have it both ways.

During recruiting, there is a significant undercurrent of posters who complain that some of the prospects we land don't have a multitude of offers, and ring alarm bells over that.

Then when we go out and land kids with not just a lot of offers, but ELITE offers the story changes to HS ratings are meaningless.

The reality is, the offer list is an important indicator. It isn't the only one, but it is a measuring stick that tells us how those players were evaluated and what level they were projected to play at. When I see a kid who has offers from Alabama, Clemson, LSU, Ohio State, USC, Michigan, etc. it says a lot.

When I see multiple players like that added to the secondary, it's a good sign. Discounting them by pointing to them being "second string" at those factories when they were true frosh is what's meaningless, IMO,

I wouldn't read too much into early two-deep projections. Those newcomers are being immersed into a new system, and have only been practicing here a few weeks. Of course the incumbents are ahead. Eventually, the cream will rise to the top. And whether those players are the new ones or some of the guys who were already on the roster, I'm not that worried because I really like the talent we've amassed in the secondary.

We've been adding quality components for SEVERAL years -- guys like Oliver, who hasn't seen the field much. And the new guys add to that talent / quality. May the best players win the PT.

It's okay to be excited about the potential of the secondary as a positional unit, given the personnel.

This is somewhere between a cope post and being too smart by half. I see a lot of this kinda thing on this forum from posters who either don’t realize where we are as a program or don’t want to admit it.

If a guy is rated 4-5 stars out of high school, the only thing we have to judge his potential impact by is high school. That’s why the star rating exists, to evaluate the potential impact of a player who has never played college football. Once they get to college they can be assessed on the basis of their production.

The harsh reality is this: LSU, Ohio State, South Carolina and Texas Tech poached four defensive starters from us. We, on the other hand, were only able to poach backups and guys who had disciplinary issues at their former schools. This idea I see on here that the portal made us BETTER is a LOL worthy premise. NIL + Portal is probably the final nail in the coffin to any chance we had to compete at a high level.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

This is somewhere between a cope post and being too smart by half. I see a lot of this kinda thing on this forum from posters who either don’t realize where we are as a program or don’t want to admit it.

If a guy is rated 4-5 stars out of high school, the only thing we have to judge his potential impact by is high school. That’s why the star rating exists, to evaluate the potential impact of a player who has never played college football. Once they get to college they can be assessed on the basis of their production.

The harsh reality is this: LSU, Ohio State, South Carolina and Texas Tech poached four defensive starters from us. We, on the other hand, were only able to poach backups and guys who had disciplinary issues at their former schools. This idea I see on here that the portal made us BETTER is a LOL worthy premise. NIL + Portal is probably the final nail in the coffin to any chance we had to compete at a high level.

The fact is you don't really know and nobody does how things will shake out. Yes we did lose some really good starters but backfilled with what appears to be some players with real talent and potential. You can either whine about it or deal with the hand your dealt and again you don't really know nor does anyone else.
" a LOL worthy premise" Good lord. The fact is Syracuse hasn't competed at a high level in 25 years and probably won't but this is LONG before the NIL and portal. Lock the portal / transfer guys down and they most likely won't leave again but if people are going to constantly complain about losing players to bigger programs through the portal and NIL then you probably aren't going to be a fan much longer as it's going to happen EVERY year without fail.

Carter and Duce were also very smart with where they went, big programs in desperate need of help in the d backfield, got paid and will most likely start and hopefully pave a way for an NFL career. Who can blame them? They got some $ and are playing at the highest levels of college football. Something Syracuse is not and hasn't been for close to 25 years

 

[CuseLooch]

" a LOL worthy premise" Good lord. The fact is Syracuse hasn't competed at a high level in 25 years and probably won't but this is LONG before the NIL and portal. Lock the portal / transfer guys down and they most likely won't leave again but if people are going to constantly complain about losing players to bigger programs through the portal and NIL then you probably aren't going to be a fan much longer as it's going to happen EVERY year without fail.

There’s a lot of truth to this, but I think it downplays the significant degree to which our chance to compete has diminished. Let’s be real, we were a BS fumble call against Pitt away from being a dark horse CFP contender in 2018. We were a Clemson win away (which we almost got) from being a CFP frontrunner in 2022. We actually HAVE gotten somewhat close to competing for a national championship twice in the last five years.

From what I can tell, those things will never happen again if we don’t change the NIL + Portal system. If that’s true, then the situation is indeed very different from what it was.

 

[PhatOrange]

This is somewhere between a cope post and being too smart by half. I see a lot of this kinda thing on this forum from posters who either don’t realize where we are as a program or don’t want to admit it.

If a guy is rated 4-5 stars out of high school, the only thing we have to judge his potential impact by is high school. That’s why the star rating exists, to evaluate the potential impact of a player who has never played college football. Once they get to college they can be assessed on the basis of their production.

The harsh reality is this: LSU, Ohio State, South Carolina and Texas Tech poached four defensive starters from us. We, on the other hand, were only able to poach backups and guys who had disciplinary issues at their former schools. This idea I see on here that the portal made us BETTER is a LOL worthy premise. NIL + Portal is probably the final nail in the coffin to any chance we had to compete at a high level.

3 starters lost and Linton was not one. (Wohlabaugh started as many games as Linton -2). Geer imo was the most talented highest potential loss whose position we’ll withstand cause it had the best depth. He was also one of my favorite recruits in that class and 3 years left to play it was a major bummer.

I thought Duce and Carter sort of took a step back last year but obviously they are great players. CBs are VERY hard to find, it will obviously be hard to replace Duce. I feel like it's easier to replace a safety and we did when we picked up Farmer. 16 starts. I know you tried to negatively spin that as a disciplinary kid but the SEC doesn't blink with these kids; they bring them in if they can win games and no one cares.

We could be starting as many as 9 transfers this season. Just fyi. Rough calculation - Shrader, Bleich, More, Wohlabaugh, Adams, Farmer, Johnson, Simmons and the Punter. 4 are definite starters. Our incoming transfer success rates seems to be pretty good.

Our transfer MO will be to always find players who have been riding pine. That’s just the way it’s going to be. And that’s fine note above.

 

[sufandu]

Look, people can't have it both ways.

During recruiting, there is a significant undercurrent of posters who complain that some of the prospects we land don't have a multitude of offers, and ring alarm bells over that.

Then when we go out and land kids with not just a lot of offers, but ELITE offers the story changes to HS ratings are meaningless.

The reality is, the offer list is an important indicator. It isn't the only one, but it is a measuring stick that tells us how those players were evaluated and what level they were projected to play at. When I see a kid who has offers from Alabama, Clemson, LSU, Ohio State, USC, Michigan, etc. it says a lot.

When I see multiple players like that added to the secondary, it's a good sign. Discounting them by pointing to them being "second string" at those factories when they were true frosh is what's meaningless, IMO,

I wouldn't read too much into early two-deep projections. Those newcomers are being immersed into a new system, and have only been practicing here a few weeks. Of course the incumbents are ahead. Eventually, the cream will rise to the top. And whether those players are the new ones or some of the guys who were already on the roster, I'm not that worried because I really like the talent we've amassed in the secondary.

We've been adding quality components for SEVERAL years -- guys like Oliver, who hasn't seen the field much. And the new guys add to that talent / quality. May the best players win the PT.

It's okay to be excited about the potential of the secondary as a positional unit, given the personnel.

It's not having it both ways. It's reevaluation. We were excited to get Cecil Howard. Do we still view him as a great player because he was highly rated or do we view him as a bust? What about Drew Allen? Was he a great transfer because he was a 4 star guy or do we get to change our opinion because he didn't live up to it. What about the guys that oit perform their recruiting ranking? Are we not allowed to change our opinion? Do we not lament the loss of Ohio State's future starter because he was a 3 star guy? Only looking at a transfer's high school rating without also considering how they have transitioned to college just doesn't make sense.

We have filled lots of holes through the portal and I think we've used it well, but I think the people that think we've upgraded our talent at a position group after losing guys that had been starters for us to the portal and replacing them with other portal guys that weren't starters at their previous school simply because they had high rating in high school are viewing things through orange colored glasses.

Straight forward question: Do you think the guys we got in the secondary from the portal are better than Carter and Chestnut? If so what gives you that opinion, since you haven't seen them play a down yet?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

There’s a lot of truth to this, but I think it downplays the significant degree to which our chance to compete has diminished. Let’s be real, we were a BS fumble call against Pitt away from being a dark horse CFP contender in 2018. We were a Clemson win away (which we almost got) from being a CFP frontrunner in 2022. We actually HAVE gotten somewhat close to competing for a national championship twice in the last five years.

From what I can tell, those things will never happen again if we don’t change the NIL + Portal system. If that’s true, then the situation is indeed very different from what it was.

I am not downplaying anything. I am one that is happy with 6-7 wins a year and being competitive with a great year every so often. I think the portal/ NIL is a net/net for Syracuse if played correctly. Yeah there is more risk involved but you get kids from the portal they will most likely finish their careers here. Our QB room is 3 deep with them. And yeah nobody knows how good the back ups are, blah bah. And of course people feel that Lamson will be the next Andrew Luck at Stanford, why because that's what people do. Time will tell. It's ALWAYS THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY