Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[jr4750]

No expert on this, but as a non-resident, I think of Destiny as an entertainment destination as well as a retail one. The fact that it provides that value for the community imo will keep it around longer than traditional malls in other medium sized cities. Watch the social media feeds of our athletes. They are literally going to Destiny daily to walk around.

 

[shandeezy7]

I used Soraa as an example of the government wasting money as Fly Rodder all of a sudden found fiscal sanity. I personally think a tunnel with improved surface streets downtown is a good option.

Every city is different and various solutions work differently in each. You can't say in all cases a new highway wouldn't cut through a city if built today. What you are suggesting wouldn't work in reality. We would have highways leading to cities that would end at the city limits or loop around? How about the suburban and rural folks having no access to cross over an interstate? All folks care about are city neighbourhoods but when limited access highways are built they cut apart rural and suburban neighborhoods too. When highways are built there are always benefits and drawbacks.

You're right that every city is different and that different decisions make sense for different situations. This is exactly why a tunnel in a city like Syracuse is absolutely asinine. It's not a large city and it's not a rapidly growing city. There is already plenty of highway infrastructure in place that would sufficiently meet the travel needs of both those in the area and those traveling through the area. The fact that the tunnel option is still being discussed is just proof that special interests will always take precedence over the real needs of your average citizen, as long as the right pockets get lined.

 

[Fly Rodder]

So basically you had no proof it would cost $4B more.

No I don't, why would I? I threw out a range because I have no idea how much it would actually cost when the last bolt is tightened. No one does. They're all just estimates. I'm a dude on a sports message board. There's been millions spent on this garbage trying to justify a tunnel when there is no justification. All the professionals say it is a poor alternative. Why don't you present a detailed analysis shooting holes in their FS?

 

[xc84]

I used Soraa as an example of the government wasting money as Fly Rodder all of a sudden found fiscal sanity. I personally think a tunnel with improved surface streets downtown is a good option.

Every city is different and various solutions work differently in each. You can't say in all cases a new highway wouldn't cut through a city if built today. What you are suggesting wouldn't work in reality. We would have highways leading to cities that would end at the city limits or loop around? How about the suburban and rural folks having no access to cross over an interstate? All folks care about are city neighbourhoods but when limited access highways are built they cut apart rural and suburban neighborhoods too. When highways are built there are always benefits and drawbacks.

We are talking Syracuse right now not every city. There is no need for a highway to cut through downtown. There is a need to get into downtown via a highway from the suburbs. There is a need for people in the city to get out of downtown on a highway. There is need for those in the suburbs to have access to highways that go other places. This is all the case with the grid. If we were to build from scratch, there is no way a new highway would be proposed to cut through the middle of downtown for N-S and E-W thru traffic. You'd go around downtown but make sure downtown had good access in and out. That's the grid.

The tunnel would be great if it were less costly and would not require the most maintenance $$s going forward. However, it is the mostly costly to build by far, the most challenging and the most time-consuming.

 

[TexanMark]

No expert on this, but as a non-resident, I think of Destiny as an entertainment destination as well as a retail one. The fact that it provides that value for the community imo will keep it around longer than traditional malls in other medium sized cities. Watch the social media feeds of our athletes. They are literally going to Destiny daily to walk around.

Has anyone considered the long term costs of Amazon? I know I recycle a crapton of cardboard boxes and pop a bunch of sealed air? Kinda off topic...just a thought.

I think retail's demise is overblown but like it or not Destiny is CNY's mega center and would be hurt with just a community grid solution. I could be talked into community grid but I think light rail should be added into the mix.

 

[xc84]

Has anyone considered the long term costs of Amazon? I know I recycle a crapton of cardboard boxes and pop a bunch of sealed air? Kinda off topic...just a thought.

I think retail's demise is overblown but like it or not Destiny is CNY's mega center and would be hurt with just a community grid solution. I could be talked into community grid but I think light rail should be added into the mix.

The boxes/recycle issue with ordering online is coming to a head and needs to be resolved. There have been stories of cardboard gluts and the problems they present. However, that will not stop anyone from ordering online when they get their product cheaper and don't need to leave their home. If you look at Macy's, K-mart and many of the world's best retailers and the closure of many malls, the reduction of brick and mortar stores is not overblown. That's why Destiny has started to rely so heavily on "entertainment" as a draw.

I'd be happy with a light rail addition too but too many people (not me) oppose that because they don't support themselves economically in the US (for the most part) and rely on taxes to subsidize.

 

[OttoMets]

Has anyone considered the long term costs of Amazon? I know I recycle a crapton of cardboard boxes and pop a bunch of sealed air? Kinda off topic...just a thought.

I think retail's demise is overblown but like it or not Destiny is CNY's mega center and would be hurt with just a community grid solution. I could be talked into community grid but I think light rail should be added into the mix.

Not just the cardboard and plastic - there is a big emissions problem associated with Amazon and a lot of cities are struggling with the congestion/parking mess created by the huge increase in deliveries. I don't like it, but I'm afraid it's here to stay. Given the convenience and reduced cost of this model, brick-and-mortar retail will never steal back this share of the market from Amazon.

Light rail should have been part of this planning from the beginning. Sad to say I don't see it happening. This is a missed opportunity, in my opinion.

 

[AZOrange]

No expert on this, but as a non-resident, I think of Destiny as an entertainment destination as well as a retail one. The fact that it provides that value for the community imo will keep it around longer than traditional malls in other medium sized cities. Watch the social media feeds of our athletes. They are literally going to Destiny daily to walk around.

Agreed. True retail is dying but this is not that

 

[SU68]

How long does everyone think that mall remains open. Retail across the county is dying on the vine yet we miraculously continue to see record visitors and sales. Not a critic more confused as the stated Destiny success seems to go against the tide that is drowning retail.

I think that mall is safe because of the bad Syracuse winters. Shoppers like to leisurely walk around stores in a climate-controlled environment.

 

[xc84]

I think that mall is safe because of the bad Syracuse winters. Shoppers like to leisurely walk around stores in a climate-controlled environment.

It's not that simple. See Shoppingtown. I do agree with those who point out that Congel has leveraged entertainment to keep the mall afloat. I think this will buy it some time but will still depend on whether retailers can capitalize on the traffic from the entertainment areas.

 

[sufandu]

It's not that simple. See Shoppingtown. I do agree with those who point out that Congel has leveraged entertainment to keep the mall afloat. I think this will buy it some time but will still depend on whether retailers can capitalize on the traffic from the entertainment areas.

Can't you also attribute the demise of Shoppingtown and Great Northern to the economic decline in the areas. Great Northern was essentially the mall for Oswego County so once they lost Miller and Nestle along with the Oswego County residents that commuted to Carrier and NPG, it's fate was sealed. I lived north of the city so never went to Shoppingtown. Destiny is positioned so much better geographically to draw from the whole area.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Shoppingtown is next to Dewitt, Manlius, and Fayetteville. Three of the wealthiest 'burbs in the area. From what I understand, the previous owner was pain to deal with and the new owners aren't much better. Destiny is drawing the some of the mall traffic away, but, by and large, retail decline in malls has occurred throughout the country. Some of that has to do with retail in general and some of that has to do with a desire for stand alone buildings offering better deals. Look at all the coul-have-been and had-been mall anchor tenants on Erie Blvd. Dck's Sporting Goods didn't pull up shop and build a new building a mile away because they couldn't get foot traffic to that area.

Similarly Great Northern went under just as Rte 31 stand alones blew up over the last 15 years.

 

[OttoMets]

Can't you also attribute the demise of Shoppingtown and Great Northern to the economic decline in the areas. Great Northern was essentially the mall for Oswego County so once they lost Miller and Nestle along with the Oswego County residents that commuted to Carrier and NPG, it's fate was sealed. I lived north of the city so never went to Shoppingtown. Destiny is positioned so much better geographically to draw from the whole area.

I'd attribute the decline of those two enclosed malls to two things. First is the Destiny competition. More than that, I think, was the shift in consumer habits from enclosed malls to plazas. Both Great Northern and Shoppingtown started to bleed tenants when developers (might be COR in both instances, certainly was in Fayetteville) built large new plazas (they call them 'town centers' but give me a break, it's a retail strip in a big surface parking lot) with generous tenant improvement incentives not far from those two malls. A couple national retailers jump ship when their leases expire, a couple more follow suit, and the thing snowballs. Once the malls lost momentum (and disinvestment by Macerich, owner of both malls, also contributed to the problem), they got caught in a bad cycle: need for capital improvements, less lease revenue coming in, less incentive for tenants to stay when leases expire. Once a couple anchors got into trouble, that was the last nail in the coffin.

I don't know as much about Great Northern, but Shoppingtown was a potential goldmine five or ten years ago - one of the most attractive zip codes in the region, and almost adjacent to what's going to be a high-visibility interchange on the potential new I-81. Whole Foods was scratching around the immediate area for its first local store; with a committed developer, I believe they could've landed there. All of this was just waiting for the pendulum to swing back, just as it did from DeWitt to Fayetteville a decade or so before. But the current absentee owner is struggling and now they've lost Macy's, JCPenney, and the library.

 

[skurey]

Seems like plowing gets worse every year. West Genesee Street was still terrible this morning. That's unacceptable.

 

[xc84]

Can't you also attribute the demise of Shoppingtown and Great Northern to the economic decline in the areas. Great Northern was essentially the mall for Oswego County so once they lost Miller and Nestle along with the Oswego County residents that commuted to Carrier and NPG, it's fate was sealed. I lived north of the city so never went to Shoppingtown. Destiny is positioned so much better geographically to draw from the whole area.

No, Destiny changed and added size and entertainment venues. Shoppingtown stayed retail. Dewitt, Fayetteville, Manlius are not exactly poor areas... in fact, the opposite. I was at the Dewitt Wegmans for lunch Saturday during a blizzard... was packed...and I am not talking people just buying groceries. It's a high end food mall. In fact, I am pretty sure I saw GRob there grabbing a burger at the Burger Bar...least it looked a lot like him. For malls, it can't be just stores. Gotta be a lot more.

 

[Cheriehoop]

We travel from north Liverpool 2 to 3 day’s a week and the state of the city streets is deplorable. Today we went from the center of the city not far from the dome to the north side - N. Salina St, off Wolf St, 2nd North, Grant Blvd to more side streets off Lemoyne Ave. The streets weren’t plowed and what was most disturbing we didn’t see one city plow in over an hour on city streets. We did see 4 private plows either traveling (not plowing) or actually plowing private driveways. These driveways were so much better than the city street the driveway was on, the owner’s issue would be avoid getting stuck on their street. If they can’t afford to take care of streets currently, putting more traffic on city streets seems crazy. They even prioritize potholes now because the money isn’t there. Pedestrians were taking their lives in their hands trying to cross streets. Where is the money coming from to add even more repair and maintenance to city streets?

Some Syracuse streets still a mess as crews try to dig out from weekend storm (video)

 

[RMH44]

I'd attribute the decline of those two enclosed malls to two things. First is the Destiny competition. More than that, I think, was the shift in consumer habits from enclosed malls to plazas. Both Great Northern and Shoppingtown started to bleed tenants when developers (might be COR in both instances, certainly was in Fayetteville) built large new plazas (they call them 'town centers' but give me a break, it's a retail strip in a big surface parking lot) with generous tenant improvement incentives not far from those two malls. A couple national retailers jump ship when their leases expire, a couple more follow suit, and the thing snowballs. Once the malls lost momentum (and disinvestment by Macerich, owner of both malls, also contributed to the problem), they got caught in a bad cycle: need for capital improvements, less lease revenue coming in, less incentive for tenants to stay when leases expire. Once a couple anchors got into trouble, that was the last nail in the coffin.

I don't know as much about Great Northern, but Shoppingtown was a potential goldmine five or ten years ago - one of the most attractive zip codes in the region, and almost adjacent to what's going to be a high-visibility interchange on the potential new I-81. Whole Foods was scratching around the immediate area for its first local store; with a committed developer, I believe they could've landed there. All of this was just waiting for the pendulum to swing back, just as it did from DeWitt to Fayetteville a decade or so before. But the current absentee owner is struggling and now they've lost Macy's, JCPenney, and the library.

Hoping they don't lose the barber shop ;-)

 

[tipphill]

We travel from north Liverpool 2 to 3 day’s a week and the state of the city streets is deplorable. Today we went from the center of the city not far from the mall to the north side - N. Salina St, off Wolf St, 2nd North, Grant Blvd to more side streets off Lemoyne Ave. The streets weren’t plowed and what was most disturbing we didn’t see one city plow in over an hour on city streets. We did see 4 private plows either traveling (not plowing) or actually plowing private driveways. These driveways were so much better than the city street the driveway was on, the owner’s issue would be avoid getting stuck on their street. If they can’t afford to take care of streets currently, putting more traffic on city streets seems crazy. They even prioritize potholes now because the money isn’t there. Pedestrians were taking their lives in their hands trying to cross streets. Where is the money coming from to add even more repair and maintenance to city streets?

Some Syracuse streets still a mess as crews try to dig out from weekend storm (video)

why would PRIVATE plow,plow a street they are not being paid for???private means private!!! no one but the owner is paying to maintain them. they are not a city,county, or state payroll --with benefits!!
i do wonder if the consolidation of city,municipality and county services would be valuable, streamline and coordinate services, saving money be more in the long run.

 

[Cheriehoop]

why would PRIVATE plow,plow a street they are not being paid for???private means private!!! no one but the owner is paying to maintain them. they are not a city,county, or state payroll --with benefits!!
i do wonder if the consolidation of city,municipality and county services would be valuable, streamline and coordinate services, saving money be more in the long run.

Huh? What’s the yelling (caps) about? Who said they were supposed to? Not me. My comment was that private plows were plowing driveways on streets that were barely passable. The driveways were better than the streets. Sorry but I don’t know what you were reading into it.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

We are talking Syracuse right now not every city. There is no need for a highway to cut through downtown. There is a need to get into downtown via a highway from the suburbs. There is a need for people in the city to get out of downtown on a highway. There is need for those in the suburbs to have access to highways that go other places. This is all the case with the grid. If we were to build from scratch, there is no way a new highway would be proposed to cut through the middle of downtown for N-S and E-W thru traffic. You'd go around downtown but make sure downtown had good access in and out. That's the grid.

The tunnel would be great if it were less costly and would not require the most maintenance $$s going forward. However, it is the mostly costly to build by far, the most challenging and the most time-consuming.

The issue is that without getting to 81 from 690, getting from Baldwinsville to 81 south will have about an extra 1/2 hour each way added to every trip.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

100% disagree. Malls are going the way of the dodo and a tunnel won't save squat. It's shortsighted backwards thinking to
prioritize urban development for a dying mall over the only things that are actually thriving in Syracuse (healthcare and education).

What dying mall? The place is mobbed whenever I am there.
Redirect Notice

Google

 

[maxxyz]

The issue is that without getting to 81 from 690, getting from Baldwinsville to 81 south will have about an extra 1/2 hour each way added to every trip.

Actually the issue is what's best for the residents of the city of Syracuse.

 

[shandeezy7]

The issue is that without getting to 81 from 690, getting from Baldwinsville to 81 south will have about an extra 1/2 hour each way added to every trip.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. In what world is it taking an extra 1/2 hour (one way) to get anywhere, aside from tearing down all the highways in the city (which I'm pretty sure nobody is proposing)?

 

[xc84]

The issue is that without getting to 81 from 690, getting from Baldwinsville to 81 south will have about an extra 1/2 hour each way added to every trip.

No. There were studies. Extra 3 minutes.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Baldwinsville, NY to LaFayette, NY = 24.6 miles/~29 minutes via 690/81S
Baldwinsville, NY to LaFayette, NY = 32.6 miles/~36 minutes via 690/481S

Seven minutes difference. Whatever will the poor people of Baldwinsville do when they want to go the Apple Festival? And that doesn't even take into account that they can still drive the boulevard replacement.