Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[shandeezy7]

The state just spent almost $100M building a brand new factory that sits vacant. I'm tired of the State picking winners and losers with our money. The winners most of the time...never fulfill their promises of jobs and so it goes. At least the tunnel/grid option would benefit everyone. Congel could make some serious hay if he promises to kick in a $1M extra a year to the city for 10 years. In essence he would be just giving back the taxpayers money. The ball is in his court. If the tunnel isn't built his Mall gets hurt bigly.

Ten years of construction would definitely have an impact on the economy...and long term too. This is a federal highway...the $10M a year wouldn't be funded by just the City.

The mall will not be hurt if the viaduct is removed and the tunnel isn't built. It just won't. The viaduct is there now and the mall already has serious issues keeping tenants. The number of visitors the mall gets each year because someone happened to be driving through the city and decided to stop at the mall on a whim because they saw it off the highway has to be minuscule at best. Those who want to go to the mall aren't going to be deterred by having to take an extra 5 minutes to get there.

And the tunnel option would not benefit everyone, especially not the owners of the dozens of buildings that would have to be torn down to make way for it, which would in turn have a negative effect on downtown Syracuse. As with everything, though, I fully expect the tunnel option or rebuild of the viaduct to be the choice, because special interests always take priority over the best interests of the people in this country, and it's been that way for a long time.

 

[Bayside44]

Viaducts are such city killers, don't live there but hope they do a grid.

 

[xc84]

The mall will not be hurt if the viaduct is removed and the tunnel isn't built. It just won't. The viaduct is there now and the mall already has serious issues keeping tenants. The number of visitors the mall gets each year because someone happened to be driving through the city and decided to stop at the mall on a whim because they saw it off the highway has to be minuscule at best. Those who want to go to the mall aren't going to be deterred by having to take an extra 5 minutes to get there.

And the tunnel option would not benefit everyone, especially not the owners of the dozens of buildings that would have to be torn down to make way for it, which would in turn have a negative effect on downtown Syracuse. As with everything, though, I fully expect the tunnel option or rebuild of the viaduct to be the choice, because special interests always take priority over the best interests of the people in this country, and it's been that way for a long time.

Not to mention that there will still be a highway alongside the mall no matter the option.

 

[TexanMark]

Viaducts are such city killers, don't live there but hope they do a grid.

I'm hoping for a tunnel and grid. I'd keep the tunnel as short as possible.

 

[kirbivore]

For anyone who gets a chance to walk beneath the viaduct, look up. A lot of the concrete abutments are held together by temporary steel cables. The thing needs to come down ASAP. Instead these jackasses are playing politics.

At least we've now got a mayor in a position to advocate for resolution.

Unless he's CORrupt like Joanie

 

[shandeezy7]

Not to mention that there will still be a highway alongside the mall no matter the option.

Spending $5 billion to appease a mall owner would be so Syracuse that it hurts. This city has been hurt by a lack of visionary/progressive leadership at the city, state and federal level for a century now.

 

[Fly Rodder]

If the tunnel isn't built his Mall gets hurt bigly.

100% disagree. Malls are going the way of the dodo and a tunnel won't save squat. It's shortsighted backwards thinking to
prioritize urban development for a dying mall over the only things that are actually thriving in Syracuse (healthcare and education).

 

[TexanMark]

100% disagree. Malls are going the way of the dodo and a tunnel won't save squat. It's shortsighted backwards thinking to
prioritize urban development for a dying mall over the only things that are actually thriving in Syracuse (healthcare and education).

Well if they do...maybe we turn Destiny into a huge Amazon warehouse and cardboard manufacturing center.

I think your statement is overblown.

 

[TexanMark]

Spending $5 billion to appease a mall owner would be so Syracuse that it hurts. This city has been hurt by a lack of visionary/progressive leadership at the city, state and federal level for a century now.

Not sure how old you are...but Oil City and the whole area was an ugly area that was an ecological wasteland. I know it is popular to bash Congel but that Mall has changed the area for the better than what it was in the 1980s.

 

[xc84]

Not sure how old you are...but Oil City and the whole area was an ugly area that was an ecological wasteland. I know it is popular to bash Congel but that Mall has changed the area for the better than what it was in the 1980s.

I am not a Congel basher and he did do a lot. However, no matter what plan you look at, there is a highway in front of the mall. It will still be easy to access. The success of the mall will not depend on the decision of this project.

 

[shandeezy7]

Not sure how old you are...but Oil City and the whole area was an ugly area that was an ecological wasteland. I know it is popular to bash Congel but that Mall has changed the area for the better than what it was in the 1980s.

Oh yeah, I was young, but I remember. He's done some great things with that area. He also held that whole area hostage for years, preventing further development while he pitched grandiose plans that everyone knew would not come to fruition. Now his family is holding the city hostage again with this whole 81 deal, which if it weren't for a few special interests such as the mall, this discussion would have been over years ago with work already started to remove the viaduct.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I am not a Congel basher and he did do a lot. However, no matter what plan you look at, there is a highway in front of the mall. It will still be easy to access. The success of the mall will not depend on the decision of this project.

It's not about access - it's about selling visibility next to a major interstate to future tenants. Leasing agents care about that stuff - and a sales pitch is all about perception.

 

[Fly Rodder]

It's not about access - it's about selling visibility next to a major interstate to future tenants. Leasing agents care about that stuff - and a sales pitch is all about perception.

It will still be next to a major interstate and I'm not sure where taxpayers have a fiduciary responsibility (to the tune of an extra $2-4 billion dollars) to a mall owner. He developed a brownfield ... good for him. Lots of developers do so. He got lots of tax breaks and lots of support from the city, county, and state. I'm sure that he's recovered his initial investment and has profited handsomely from this endeavor. Unfortunately, his interests don't trump those of the other business and property owners in the 81-corridor nor do they trump those of the taxpayers.

Congel's mall isn't a sufficient reason to spend that kind of money on a extravagance. There is no other reason to support a tunnel option.

 

[Newhouser]

How long does everyone think that mall remains open. Retail across the county is dying on the vine yet we miraculously continue to see record visitors and sales. Not a critic more confused as the stated Destiny success seems to go against the tide that is drowning retail.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

How long does everyone think that mall remains open. Retail across the county is dying on the vine yet we miraculously continue to see record visitors and sales. Not a critic more confused as the stated Destiny success seems to go against the tide that is drowning retail.

It's because Shoppingtown and Great Northern died, and Destiny now has the only Macy's and JCPenney's in the County.

 

[TexanMark]

Well Destiny and nearby hotels employ over 6000. The tunnel is an investment in the community. So the same folks who haven't met an entitlement program they didn't like and support the things like the State building a $90M factory for Soraa (which BTW had no skin in the game) on the promise 270 jobs...Destiny is real jobs, right now and brings in outside money. It isn't just Destiny that benefits. Folks are dismissive of the added time to commute...but those trips add up in time, money spent, and extra pollution. Lot's of misinformation out from folks pushing various agendas.

 

[Fly Rodder]

With $3 billion dollars you can give 6,000 people $12,500 per year for 40 years. And that's not even including any growth on the original $3B. That's just a straight disbursement.

It'll be a travesty that when all those jobs go poof because Syracuse didn't get a tunnel for a mall.

Retail across the county is dying on the vine yet we miraculously continue to see record visitors and sales. Not a critic more confused as the stated Destiny success seems to go against the tide that is drowning retail.

The country itself is overretailed. I read an article a while ago that the the Macy's that were closed were all within 10 miles of another Macy's. Not all malls will close, but it will be harder and harder to keep the lesser ones open and they will require more than just a few anchor tenants. A super-mall like Destiny will likely remain, mostly, as it is the only game in town.

Folks are dismissive of the added time to commute...but those trips add up in time, money spent, and extra pollution

Good idea, probably should put in a park-and-ride and invest $1B in a metro train (Dome to downtown to Destiny to Airport). Didn't take you for a greenie Mark.

 

[TexanMark]

Fly Rodder it isn't just about Destiny...but I love how you are dismissive of their jobs. Let me guess you don't work in retail as that is beneath you?

Please show the proof the tunnel will cost $4B more?

 

[Fly Rodder]

Fly Rodder it isn't just about Destiny...but I love how you are dismissive of their jobs. Let me guess you don't work in retail as that is beneath you?

Please show the proof the tunnel will cost $4B more?

Where did I post $4B more?
"$4.5 billion and take 10 years to complete. Rebuilding the viaduct would cost an estimated $1.7 billion"

$4.5- $1.7 = $2.8, add a 20% cost overrun for a 10 year construction job and now you're looking at $3.35B. This isn't a difference of a few hundred million here. That is a huge outlay. And frankly the negative economic consequences to a mall, that everyone drives to anyway, are way overblown. Destiny won't go poof if there is no southern expressway through the city. I'm not dismissive of retail as a job, but the outlook isn't good and investing an enormous sum of money into a dying industry isn't a good move, especially when that a smaller portion of that money can benefit a much more stable and long term industry in Syracuse that can't up and move (i.e., medical and education).

If there are other reasons to a build a tunnel, I'm all ears (er, eyes), but so far, it's 1) Congel's Mall may suffer some unknown decline (which would be tremendously difficult to tease out amidst a general decline in retail); and 2) southern suburban commuters would have an additional few minutes tacked onto their commutes.

I have a huge difficulty in trying to understand why fiscal conservatives would see any value in this boondoggle when all engineers and transportation professionals think it is not the best alternative.

 

[xc84]

Well Destiny and nearby hotels employ over 6000. The tunnel is an investment in the community. So the same folks who haven't met an entitlement program they didn't like and support the things like the State building a $90M factory for Soraa (which BTW had no skin in the game) on the promise 270 jobs...Destiny is real jobs, right now and brings in outside money. It isn't just Destiny that benefits. Folks are dismissive of the added time to commute...but those trips add up in time, money spent, and extra pollution. Lot's of misinformation out from folks pushing various agendas.

The mall will not live (or die) based on this decision. As for commutes, for some it will improve (going to and from downtown), for some it gets worse . The least expensive option is the at-grade grid one by hundreds of millions of $$s. I prefer the least expensive which I also think is the best physical option for the region for many reasons. The factory you mention above was mismanaged obviously and I don't know of anyone who thinks that was money well-spent. However, I don't think one has anything to do with the other.

If we were starting from scratch and we had a downtown and there was a major North-South highway being proposed, no one would be proposing that we clear a path through downtown and build an elevated highway through it.

 

[TexanMark]

You wrote $2-4B a few posts above. So it is ok to add in cost over runs for one version but not the other?

Tunnel estimates cost $3.2 to 4.5B according to this.
A detailed look at 4 different ways to build a $4 billion I-81 tunnel in Syracuse

Your math distorts...

 

[TexanMark]

The mall will not live (or die) based on this decision. As for commutes, for some it will improve (going to and from downtown), for some it gets worse . The least expensive option is the at-grade grid one by hundreds of millions of $$s. I prefer the least expensive which I also think is the best physical option for the region for many reasons. The factory you mention above was mismanaged obviously and I don't know of anyone who thinks that was money well-spent. However, I don't think one has anything to do with the other.

If we were starting from scratch and we had a downtown and there was a major North-South highway being proposed, no one would be proposing that we clear a path through downtown and build an elevated highway through it.

I used Soraa as an example of the government wasting money as Fly Rodder all of a sudden found fiscal sanity. I personally think a tunnel with improved surface streets downtown is a good option.

Every city is different and various solutions work differently in each. You can't say in all cases a new highway wouldn't cut through a city if built today. What you are suggesting wouldn't work in reality. We would have highways leading to cities that would end at the city limits or loop around? How about the suburban and rural folks having no access to cross over an interstate? All folks care about are city neighbourhoods but when limited access highways are built they cut apart rural and suburban neighborhoods too. When highways are built there are always benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Fly Rodder]

You wrote $2-4B a few posts above. So it is ok to add in cost over runs for one version but not the other?

Tunnel estimates cost $3.2 to 4.5B according to this.
A detailed look at 4 different ways to build a $4 billion I-81 tunnel in Syracuse

Your math distorts...

Cost overrun is common in tunnel projects. During the construction of a tunnel, overrun is mainly related to unpredicted geological conditions as well as prolonged time schedule ... The studies on the case histories in the world showed that the cost overrun in tunnel engineering is about 30%. Even the well planned mega tunnel projects, cost overrun may be much higher than that of the average."
Cost Overrun Control during Tunnel Construction - IEEE Conference Publication

Still, in the grander scheme things, whether the cost estimate is $2 or $4 billion more, it's still at least $2b more than the more cost effective and appropriate alternatives with no sufficient justification. Focus on that last part.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Fly Rodder all of a sudden found fiscal sanity

Suddenly?

 

[TexanMark]

Cost overrun is common in tunnel projects. During the construction of a tunnel, overrun is mainly related to unpredicted geological conditions as well as prolonged time schedule ... The studies on the case histories in the world showed that the cost overrun in tunnel engineering is about 30%. Even the well planned mega tunnel projects, cost overrun may be much higher than that of the average."
Cost Overrun Control during Tunnel Construction - IEEE Conference Publication

Still, in the grander scheme things, whether the cost estimate is $2 or $4 billion more, it's still at least $2b more than the more cost effective and appropriate alternatives with no sufficient justification. Focus on that last part.

So basically you had no proof it would cost $4B more.