Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

[OttoMets]

Quick question. Does anyone have any links to any studies for cities similar to Syracuse that went to the grid and how it turned out? That would be interesting to see.

Route 34-Downtown Crossing Project Underway in New Haven (Route 34 New Haven: Downtown Crossing)

An ode to the Embarcadero Freeway, the blight by the bay

Park East History

Here are a couple more: https://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-removals-that-changed-their-cities-forever-1548314937

I also think South Capitol Street in D.C. is a good example. Not an interstate, but a redundant high-speed viaduct with higher average daily traffic counts than 81. DDOT brought it to ground level with wide sidewalks and narrower lanes the year before the baseball stadium opened and the change in neighborhoods on both sides is like night and day.

 

[shandeezy7]

there was a letter to the editor on syracuse.com that suggested adding free lanes to the thruway with exits limited between 481 and 81. At one of the town halls at Henninger way back when DeFrancisco was doing them, the one that Kerry Mannion cried like a little baby at, I suggested making the thruway free between 481 and 81. I can't believe this hasn't been discussed more as a viable solution

They did it in Buffalo, so I'm not sure why it can't be done here, although I do know that the stretch in Buffalo runs through a far more densely-populated area than the Thruway in Syracuse. It's about a 17 mile stretch (Buffalo is around a 10 mile stretch).

 

[OttoMets]

there was a letter to the editor on syracuse.com that suggested adding free lanes to the thruway with exits limited between 481 and 81. At one of the town halls at Henninger way back when DeFrancisco was doing them, the one that Kerry Mannion cried like a little baby at, I suggested making the thruway free between 481 and 81. I can't believe this hasn't been discussed more as a viable solution

This would be a boon for the village of Liverpool, too.

DeFrancisco sponsored a bill to that effect. Cuomo vetoed it. In conjunction with some other improvements, I could see this being a net positive for the region.

 

[sutomcat]

This would be a boon for the village of Liverpool, too.

DeFrancisco sponsored a bill to that effect. Cuomo vetoed it. In conjunction with some other improvements, I could see this being a net positive for the region.

As someone who commutes on I-90 every day, I would love to see this. Whatever solution is selected for I-81 is going to require years of construction to complete. Making this happen would provide another way to easily move east or west through the county.

Even if they don't add lanes but just make that section of I-90 free, it would help the region a lot.

 

[OttoMets]

I think a tunnel could improve things a whole lot, just looking at the options. The money is obviously the sticking point (and I am not wanting a political pissing match). But at face value, with a tunnel, you can put a park or green space with shops above it (something downtown really lacks). Think of it as a blank canvas with so much potential. To think a grid would dramatically improve blighted and neglected areas, is a bit pie-in-the-sky, and I don't really buy it (unless part of the plan is to gentrify those areas.) Quick question for those in the know: is the city grid supposed to be like the main line in the Philly suburbs, or route 206 near Princeton? I've taken both those and lemme tell you, it's a major pain in the ass, especially during high traffic times. Do the tunnel, get a nice greenway above it, add in some shops, and call it a day. It connects the city, adds a usable park that is lacking in downtown, doesn't effect commutes and to me seems logical just from an option stand point. Once we come to agreement on which option is the best, then we can worry about the funding...

If we're talking about the public good -- rather than the very narrow interest of Pyramid and a couple Salina landholders who want a high-speed freeway connection to run uninterrupted past their properties -- I can't think of any problems that a tunnel would solve. Onondaga County has a parallel, higher-speed freeway to the east, and it doesn't have any traffic to speak of.

And downtown Syracuse and adjacent neighborhoods aren't lacking for green space - far from it, they're only suffering from a lack of density. The real estate values along the corridor are depressed because of the traffic volume and the built environment. While I'm sure some projections for community improvement are pie-in-the-sky, the idea that the grid solution is singularly able to improve the corridor is perfectly reasonable. This chart can better illustrate what I mean.

The highest-value real estate in the county flanks the Almond Street corridor on both sides. It plummets in the area where the character of the neighborhood suffers because of the viaduct.

A tunnel could theoretically solve this: a deep bore tunnel could enter the ground around East Colvin Street and emerge near the mall. The Almond Street corridor could support hundreds of millions of dollars of new development. But we wouldn't be getting much utility from that tunnel, because it wouldn't offer direct access to downtown or the hill, and it wouldn't connect to 690. Further, because it would certain be tolled, a lot of traffic would shift to the existing grid anyhow.

To answer your Princeton question, I always take 206 through town and don't know of any parallel through streets. It's slow sometimes. In Syracuse, 88% of the traffic on the viaduct has a destination or origin between the two 481 termini. A big percentage of this is bound for downtown or the hill. That is, they're all using the grid already! Congestion results from the chokepoints on and approaching the interstates. The essence of the grid is that there are dozens of redundant streets - motorists would leave the freeway and disperse onto city streets that provide more direct access to destinations (and are running over 90% below capacity at all times).

Hope that answers a couple questions.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

The entire Thruway is scheduled to convert to "cashless tolling" by the end of 2020.

If you have an EZPass, it'll get scanned, otherwise they'll take a picture of your license plate and send you a bill.

Not charging people between I-81 and I-481 would be a piece of cake.

 

[OttoMets]

As someone who commutes on I-90 every day, I would love to see this. Whatever solution is selected for I-81 is going to require years of construction to complete. Making this happen would provide another way to easily move east or west through the county.

Even if they don't add lanes but just make that section of I-90 free, it would help the region a lot.

In a perfect world, I'd love to see millions spent on a high-speed interchange at Oswego Road, combined with removal of lanes in the village of Liverpool and some merciless traffic enforcement.

Liverpool could be one of CNY's gems, but NYSDOT destroyed it by inviting commuters from up north to rip through the village at speed. This could be undone in conjunction with some 90 improvements, and if toll elimination is part of that, I'll pay a little more in taxes to make it happen.

How's that for a regional approach?

 

[KellySyracuse]

In a perfect world, I'd love to see millions spent on a high-speed interchange at Oswego Road, combined with removal of lanes in the village of Liverpool and some merciless traffic enforcement.

Liverpool could be one of CNY's gems, but NYSDOT destroyed it by inviting commuters from up north to rip through the village at speed. This could be undone in conjunction with some 90 improvements, and if toll elimination is part of that, I'll pay a little more in taxes to make it happen.

How's that for a regional approach?

I've always thought they should reduce the lanes and speed on the parkway and add bike lanes on either side. Force people to use Old Liverpool Rd to get to 81. But I'm really pie in the sky for optimism.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I'm amazed it's not public yet. No clue what the delay is.

The political contributions from the Congel crowd keep coming in. Otherwise we would have approved the Grid a year or two ago.

 

[IthacaMatt]

You know nothing about John. I don't agree with many of his votes, but he votes his conscience, not his party.
Rep. John Katko: Trump follower or independent voice? A look at 11 key votes

He was a Trump lackey until he almost lost his job in the last election.
He just relocated his "conscience" around November of last year.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Can you please share pictures of these historic monuments so we can all appreciate their architectural and cultural contribution to the city? Something tells me it's just easier to pretend that we're trying to tear down St Patrick's Cathedral. Oh the humanity.


Nothing lazy about it. It's more expensive and potentially more costly to maintain but that by itself shouldn't rule it out - it's just a convenient lightning rod. Most of the maintenance costs would be state responsibility not local. And guess what? $3B goes a long way to supporting the local economy during the years of tunnel construction. Construction workers have to live someplace. Hotels will be near capacity. That's not a bowling congress 6-month shot-in-the-arm, this is a 5+ year enema. Cuomo will spend billions in Buffalo or NYC if he doesn't spend it here. It's ok to have a nice things.

For the record, I'd prefer they re-route 81 through the West St bypass and reconnect with the current viaduct somewhere near the Inner Harbor.

He meant lazy thinking, not lazy in that it would be hard to do.

It would be expensive, very difficult to engineer, and would cost a ridiculous amount of money to maintain.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Do you have any examples of a metro area with stagnant population growth and more than adequate highway infrastructure already in place investing billions of dollars in a tunnel?

If they had built the western bypass this would be a complete non-issue. 81 was the closest thing commuters in the western and southwest burbs had to a bypass. Telling us to go take 481 is a big slap in the face. Onondaga Hill, OCC, Community General get no respect.

Maybe we should knock down 481 and tell Dewitt residents to take the West Seneca Turnpike or Erie Blvd instead. Let's see how they would like it.

 

[IthacaMatt]

If we're talking about the public good -- rather than the very narrow interest of Pyramid and a couple Salina landholders who want a high-speed freeway connection to run uninterrupted past their properties -- I can't think of any problems that a tunnel would solve. Onondaga County has a parallel, higher-speed freeway to the east, and it doesn't have any traffic to speak of.

And downtown Syracuse and adjacent neighborhoods aren't lacking for green space - far from it, they're only suffering from a lack of density. The real estate values along the corridor are depressed because of the traffic volume and the built environment. While I'm sure some projections for community improvement are pie-in-the-sky, the idea that the grid solution is singularly able to improve the corridor is perfectly reasonable. This chart can better illustrate what I mean.

View attachment 153976
The highest-value real estate in the county flanks the Almond Street corridor on both sides. It plummets in the area where the character of the neighborhood suffers because of the viaduct.

A tunnel could theoretically solve this: a deep bore tunnel could enter the ground around East Colvin Street and emerge near the mall. The Almond Street corridor could support hundreds of millions of dollars of new development. But we wouldn't be getting much utility from that tunnel, because it wouldn't offer direct access to downtown or the hill, and it wouldn't connect to 690. Further, because it would certain be tolled, a lot of traffic would shift to the existing grid anyhow.

To answer your Princeton question, I always take 206 through town and don't know of any parallel through streets. It's slow sometimes. In Syracuse, 88% of the traffic on the viaduct has a destination or origin between the two 481 termini. A big percentage of this is bound for downtown or the hill. That is, they're all using the grid already! Congestion results from the chokepoints on and approaching the interstates. The essence of the grid is that there are dozens of redundant streets - motorists would leave the freeway and disperse onto city streets that provide more direct access to destinations (and are running over 90% below capacity at all times).

Hope that answers a couple questions.

That chart is genius!
There's your answer for what ought to be done, in case anyone still has any questions.

 

[IthacaMatt]

If they had built the western bypass this would be a complete non-issue. 81 was the closest thing commuters in the western and southwest burbs had to a bypass. Telling us to go take 481 is a big slap in the face. Onondaga Hill, OCC, Community General get no respect.

Maybe we should knock down 481 and tell Dewitt residents to take the West Seneca Turnpike or Erie Blvd instead. Let's see how they would like it.

I agree with your first paragraph completely. It was a missed opportunity that should be rectified. Run it from Onondaga Hill out to Camillus and connect to Route 5.

Your second paragraph kind of misses the point. We aren't so concerned about the neighborhood surrounding 481. Yes, there is the chi-chi housing out by Woodchuck Hill Road, but any other place in the country just puts up the walls to baffle the sound. We certainly can do that here if we expand 481 to accommodate more through traffic that is bound for north of the City.

 

[FrancoPizza]

The highest-value real estate plummets in the area where the character of the neighborhood suffers because of the viaduct.

Really? The highway is responsible for arranging drug deals on street corners in Pioneer Homes? The highway is forcing section 8 residents to keep taking government handouts for generation to generation? That concrete needs a stern talking to!

 

[IthacaMatt]

Really? The highway is responsible for arranging drug deals on street corners in Pioneer Homes? The highway is forcing section 8 residents to keep taking government handouts for generation to generation? That concrete needs a stern talking to!

Oh, come on. What are you arguing for?
The viaduct creates a shady area where it's easier for drug deals and robberies and assaults to take place, just like if there was a block full of abandoned buildings.

If that place is no longer "there", and is replaced by office buildings, businesses and residences, then the undesirable people and behavior moves elsewhere.

This is exactly what the City of New York did with midtown and the Times Square area in particular. It's a very similar reclamation project, if you think about it. And now Times Square is the home to quite a number of corporate headquarters, instead of peep shows, bodegas and Tad's Steaks.

 

[Marty McFly]

Thanks OttoMets for the deep dive! Great chart. That said, how realistic is it, for the city to collect property taxes from redeveloping the acreage once the interstate comes down? It's great that the potential is there, but what happens if it just sits vacant? (playing devil's advocate here)

 

[IthacaMatt]

Thanks OttoMets for the deep dive! Great chart. That said, how realistic is it, for the city to collect property taxes from redeveloping the acreage once the interstate comes down? It's great that the potential is there, but what happens if it just sits vacant? (playing devil's advocate here)

It won't sit vacant. Upstate Medical keeps expanding. The University keeps expanding. Local development is going crazy along the University-to-Downtown corridor. It's probably the most active construction area in Onondaga County right now.

 

[shandeezy7]

It won't sit vacant. Upstate Medical keeps expanding. The University keeps expanding. Local development is going crazy along the University-to-Downtown corridor. It's probably the most active construction area in Onondaga County right now.

I guess I could see where Upstate and the University expanding would not help the tax base, but neither would destroying two dozen-plus occupied buildings to make way for a new viaduct or tunnel.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Oh, come on. What are you arguing for?
The viaduct creates a shady area where it's easier for drug deals and robberies and assaults to take place, just like if there was a block full of abandoned buildings.

If that place is no longer "there", and is replaced by office buildings, businesses and residences, then the undesirable people and behavior moves elsewhere.

This is exactly what the City of New York did with midtown and the Times Square area in particular. It's a very similar reclamation project, if you think about it. And now Times Square is the home to quite a number of corporate headquarters, instead of peep shows, bodegas and Tad's Steaks.

If they can relocate the section 8 residents and raze the slums for development projects like the ones you listed then I can live with the inconvenience. I also think the businesses on 81 that are affected are entitled to sue for damages if they can prove they are negatively impacted. Forget what you think about Congel and hotel owners but their investments were based heavily on proximity to the interstate. Nobody goes into that thinking an interstate may someday be erased. If the state is smart, they'll offer to compensate up to a certain percentage basis during construction and set aside annual funds that could be used by destiny/maplewood suites/etc for new billboards and advertising on 481 and elsewhere.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I guess I could see where Upstate and the University expanding would not help the tax base, but neither would destroying two dozen-plus occupied buildings to make way for a new viaduct or tunnel.

Well, look at the Hill. All those fancy housing developments for students are privately owned. All those restaurants, stores and offices are privately owned. How many doctors' offices are there on Genesee Street? Yes, more hospital or university owned buildings won't necessarily be taxed, but there are so many businesses that support the main magnets to development.

 

[IthacaMatt]

If they can relocate the section 8 residents and raze the slums for development projects like the ones you listed then I can live with the inconvenience. I also think the businesses on 81 that are affected are entitled to sue for damages if they can prove they are negatively impacted. Forget what you think about Congel and hotel owners but their investments were based heavily on proximity to the interstate. Nobody goes into that thinking an interstate may someday be erased. If the state is smart, they'll offer to compensate up to a certain percentage basis during construction and set aside annual funds that could be used by destiny/maplewood suites/etc for new billboards and advertising on 481 and elsewhere.

Congel's "investment" was substantially mitigated by various tax credits and their renewals. His original investment was in 1990 to build the place. Despite his very effective lobbying efforts, no one is guaranteed that things won't change over the course of 30 years.

 

[OttoMets]

Thanks OttoMets for the deep dive! Great chart. That said, how realistic is it, for the city to collect property taxes from redeveloping the acreage once the interstate comes down? It's great that the potential is there, but what happens if it just sits vacant? (playing devil's advocate here)

It's a good question. There's no automatic mechanism for the empty land to be transferred to the city or to developers; NYSDOT would control it, and NYSDOT's in the business of holding roads and adjacent rights of way. So there's a leap to be made here - some planning has to take place for disposition of the property. Both sides do have an understanding of what the city wants, so that's a start.

 

[OttoMets]

I guess I could see where Upstate and the University expanding would not help the tax base, but neither would destroying two dozen-plus occupied buildings to make way for a new viaduct or tunnel.

I'll do you one better (as this is an argument I hear too often - SU and Upstate are greedy freeloaders who'll spoil the 'increase the tax base' plan): if both institutions are in expansion mode, they'd just take land elsewhere if they can't take land on Almond Street. This is a zero-sum situation - land's coming off the tax rolls one way or another.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I agree with your first paragraph completely. It was a missed opportunity that should be rectified. Run it from Onondaga Hill out to Camillus and connect to Route 5.

Your second paragraph kind of misses the point. We aren't so concerned about the neighborhood surrounding 481. Yes, there is the chi-chi housing out by Woodchuck Hill Road, but any other place in the country just puts up the walls to baffle the sound. We certainly can do that here if we expand 481 to accommodate more through traffic that is bound for north of the City.

Are they expanding 481 as a result of this project. 481 is inadequate currently to handle the additional traffic in the already congested Dewitt/Fayetteville/Thruway/N Syracuse/Cicero interchange areas. For every ying theres’s a yang.