Diagne | Page 27 | Syracusefan.com

Diagne

pearl31 said:
It's quite clear Moustapha is more academically prepared for college than any number of eligible, cleared SU basketball players to come before him and that will come after him. He is being denied entry due to unrealistic rules minutia and selective scrutiny. I think you know this and it puzzles me as to why you continue to defend such a horrid institution

I'm not defending anything except to say the core minimum requirements are clear and we had a kid not meet them. It's happened before and will happen again. But just at SU but other schools too. The only way to avoid it is to never go after an at risk kid or borderline kid. What's silly IMO is the grassy knoll theory that the NCAA is out to get us or screw the player.
 
LoudHouse said:
I'm not twisting anything. That's what I've always thought from the get go. If you don't believe me, read the op ed article I wrote about this exact issue earlier today. This has been my position since the moment I heard the news. http://insidetheloudhouse.com/2015/08/21/moustapha-diagne-status-will-not-play-su/

Here's what one of your posts said.

And once again, according to everything anyone saw, he was eligibile. His coursework at high school met requirements. His test scores met requirements.

You are trying to have it both ways. He was either eligible and devalued ineligible or ineligible and declared ineligible. Which is it?

Whatever it was about his courses in the Senegal, something didn't pass muster.

And who cares what you wrote in a blog. It's your opinion. Spamming a site isn't cool either.
 
iommi said:
I think the best thing you typed a couple posts ago was the Devil's Advocate Syndrome. It's like certain people just want to be contrarians and it's the only way they get their rocks off.

So why are you being contrarian?
 
We're not getting Battle.
Chukwu isn't coming.
We weren't interested in Brodericks Jones.
Diagne is going to be fine.

Don't you ever get sick of being wrong?

At least this post will continue your streak of disagreeing with me...and being wrong yet again.


You forgot that Bryant was a lock.
 
Chino will be fine, for a sophomore center. I'd even say he's superior to Rakeem Christmas. In one way, at least. Rak did very little as a freshman, and it is already forgotten how furious the debates were over whether SU should even have brought him in.

Even with all of that Rak showed a lot more than Chinoso did.
 
iommi said:
How have I been contrarian?

I don't know. Are you? You posted it in response to someone that feels this is all the NCAA's fault.
 
I don't know. Are you? You posted it in response to someone that feels this is all the NCAA's fault.

I feel that some posts are made just to give a contrarian opinion rather than to make valid argument/ take an opposing view. I made no opinion on the NCAA by agreeing with Pearl that some posters seem to relish being a contrarian on seemingly every issue/ controversy.
 
While it's certainly possible (likely?) SU was not completely thorough in vetting Diagne's Senegalese coursework, I find it amusing how some in this thread are going to great lengths to not fault the NCAA in this.
As has been posed already...
- How is it that a regular (non-athlete) foreign student can get into any academic program as long as they have the necessary U.S. transcripts and test scores, while an athlete's academic history is (selectively, arbitrarily) scrutinized to a much greater extent?
- How is the NCAA qualified to assess the merits of foreign coursework?
- By all accounts Moustapha was a good student in graduating from a strong academic high school. How is that not enough to qualify academically as an athlete in college?
(Edit) - How is it remotely acceptable for the NCAA to rule on this two weeks before start of semester?

The Devils' Advocate syndrome around here at times is nauseating

Not to play Devil's Advocate, but I can venture to explain some of your questions from my experience,

- As a willing member of the NCAA, Syracuse has agreed to participate in the requirement that all student-athletes must meet NCAA initial-eligibility guidelines as determined by the member schools and approved by the NCAA Clearinghouse.
- I don't think the NCAA is "qualified" to assess the merits of foreign coursework, but like most higher education institutions they rely on guidelines from qualified organizations to determine equivalent grades from other countries. I have seen examples where international students received enough credit to enter with junior standing (UK/Germany for example), but for other countries, it becomes harder to determine even for the experts.
- I won't speculate on this point. I know in the past that SU didn't take non-qualifiers because the BE had a rule that once a non-qualifier enrolled they were permanently ineligible. I don't know the current rules, but it might be the case here.
- It's my guess that this week's decision was a final decision of an appeal, meaning that SU and Diagne (like Blair) knew weeks ago that the ruling was ineligible, and they were appealing the decision. I would agree that it would be reasonable to expect the NCAA to take some of their hundreds of millions and invest more in resources to make these decisions as they are again reviewing the status of every NCAA athlete across all divisions.

Note: Rules differ from division, so I have been shown cases where students were eligible for D1 and ineligible for D2 or 3 athletics because of this, which also makes no sense.
 
iommi said:
I feel that some posts are made just to give a contrarian opinion rather than to make valid argument/ take an opposing view. I made no opinion on the NCAA by agreeing with Pearl that some posters seem to relish being a contrarian on seemingly every issue/ controversy.

I e only seen people posting facts of what initial eligibility means. There's even been copy and paste of factual words from the clearinghouse. And many of the same people said the same things about the Blair situation on the football board. I don't see any contrarian. Just consistency.
 
No chance.

First G needs to be on the wing. And of the freshmen Richardson has a better chance starting at the 3 then Lydon.

Again. No Chance.

Coleman, Roberson, G, Cooney, and Kaleb the starters.

With Richardson, Lydon, Howard, and Chino off the bench in that order.
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

I don't think G will wind up starting at PG (at least not right off the bat) but you're dead wrong about Richardson having a better chance starting at SF than Lydon. Richardson is not a SF. If we need someone to start at the SF spot, it'll be Lydon, not Richardson.

Then again, I am starting to believe you really DO try to be wrong. It's the only explanation for your proficiency at being so far off base constantly.
 
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

I don't think G will wind up starting at PG (at least not right off the bat) but you're dead wrong about Richardson having a better chance starting at SF than Lydon. Richardson is not a SF. If we need someone to start at the SF spot, it'll be Lydon, not Richardson.

Then again, I am starting to believe you really DO try to be wrong. It's the only explanation for your proficiency at being so far off base constantly.

Yes, he could be wrong if he tried.
 
So we're going to choose the penalty a year early, correct?
 
It's quite clear Moustapha is more academically prepared for college than any number of eligible, cleared SU basketball players to come before him and that will come after him. He is being denied entry due to unrealistic rules minutia and selective scrutiny.
I think you know this and it puzzles me as to why you continue to defend such a horrid institution

The kid got hosed, and no one can deny it. The NCAA chose to declare him ineligible because of classes he took in Senegal as a Freaking Freshman. It didn't matter at all that he: 1) attended HS school in the states for three years, 2) graduated with a qualifying GPA and 3) earned a qualifying SAT or ACT score. How the NCAA, or anyone for that matter, can say he isn't ready for college is beyond the realm of reality. And I can't see how anyone can think differently given what I understand the facts to be (as outlined in points 1) - 3) above).
 
The kid got hosed, and no one can deny it. The NCAA chose to declare him ineligible because of classes he took in Senegal as a Freaking Freshman. It didn't matter at all that he: 1) attended HS school in the states for three years, 2) graduated with a qualifying GPA and 3) earned a qualifying SAT or ACT score. How the NCAA, or anyone for that matter, can say he isn't ready for college is beyond the realm of reality. And I can't see how anyone can think differently given what I understand the facts to be (as outlined in points 1) - 3) above).

I would agree with you. Now, if the NCAA told Diagne he was cleared to receive a scholarship, but could only practice, then it might make more sense. Otherwise, you are denying an educational opportunity, which really goes against the mission of higher education. It's not ideal, but the reality is it would make more sense to treat a case like this in a manner, which doesn't jeopardize the athlete's educational opportunities.

It would also put the decision to admit in the hands of the institution, where it should lie.
 
Not to play Devil's Advocate, but I can venture to explain some of your questions from my experience,

- As a willing member of the NCAA, Syracuse has agreed to participate in the requirement that all student-athletes must meet NCAA initial-eligibility guidelines as determined by the member schools and approved by the NCAA Clearinghouse.
- I don't think the NCAA is "qualified" to assess the merits of foreign coursework, but like most higher education institutions they rely on guidelines from qualified organizations to determine equivalent grades from other countries. I have seen examples where international students received enough credit to enter with junior standing (UK/Germany for example), but for other countries, it becomes harder to determine even for the experts.
- I won't speculate on this point. I know in the past that SU didn't take non-qualifiers because the BE had a rule that once a non-qualifier enrolled they were permanently ineligible. I don't know the current rules, but it might be the case here.
- It's my guess that this week's decision was a final decision of an appeal, meaning that SU and Diagne (like Blair) knew weeks ago that the ruling was ineligible, and they were appealing the decision. I would agree that it would be reasonable to expect the NCAA to take some of their hundreds of millions and invest more in resources to make these decisions as they are again reviewing the status of every NCAA athlete across all divisions.

Note: Rules differ from division, so I have been shown cases where students were eligible for D1 and ineligible for D2 or 3 athletics because of this, which also makes no sense.



NCAA

Never
Count your
Athletes untill they
Arrive
 
Look, I'm not in the camp that feels there is a vast conspiracy between the NCAA, the NSA and the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen to take down S.U. And I'm reasonably assured that the NCAA has established and follows a protocol to evaluate a prospective student athlete's academic resume. Further, I understand these requirements are designed to ensure that student athlete has been properly prepared and holds at least a reasonable expectation of academic success before enabling him or her to take on the rigors of a high profile football or basketball player in a DI program. However, the state of New Jersey and Syracuse University also have standards and protocols to address the same concerns.

In this case, the latter two, by awarding a diploma and by offering admission, are satisfied that the resume meets the requirements. The NCAA was not.

Two concerns here - what institution is more able at making the determination as to the student's preparedness? The highly regarded N.J. High School looking over a couple hundred kids and S.U. evaluating a few thousand, or the NCAA trying to sift through tens of thousands of applicants and clear each individually particularly for students who have spent a portion of their HS studies in a foreign country where English is at best a second language.

Second, there should be some "pine tar" logic here (sorry, for the reference, Yankee fans). The spirit of the law is to ensure readiness for college academics. By all accounts, Diagne has demonstrated that readiness in his three years in an American high school. Shouldn't that be the determining criteria? The NCAA's decision may have the letter of its law on its side, but it certainly fails the spirit test. Time to re-examine the approach. Too late for Diagne, but to avoid imposing the same punishment on other deserving kids in the future.
 
Consigliere said:
Look, I'm not in the camp that feels there is a vast conspiracy between the NCAA, the NSA and the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen to take down S.U. And I'm reasonably assured that the NCAA has established and follows a protocol to evaluate a prospective student athlete's academic resume. Further, I understand these requirements are designed to ensure that student athlete has been properly prepared and holds at least a reasonable expectation of academic success before enabling him or her to take on the rigors of a high profile football or basketball player in a DI program. However, the state of New Jersey and Syracuse University also have standards and protocols to address the same concerns. In this case, the latter two, by awarding a diploma and by offering admission, are satisfied that the resume meets the requirements. The NCAA was not. Two concerns here - what institution is more able at making the determination as to the student's preparedness? The highly regarded N.J. High School looking over a couple hundred kids and S.U. evaluating a few thousand, or the NCAA trying to sift through tens of thousands of applicants and clear each individually particularly for students who have spent a portion of their HS studies in a foreign country where English is at best a second language. Second, there should be some "pine tar" logic here (sorry, for the reference, Yankee fans). The spirit of the law is to ensure readiness for college academics. By all accounts, Diagne has demonstrated that readiness in his three years in an American high school. Shouldn't that be the determining criteria? The NCAA's decision may have the letter of its law on its side, but it certainly fails the spirit test. Time to re-examine the approach. Too late for Diagne, but to avoid imposing the same punishment on other deserving kids in the future.

Well thought out post. But the one thing that keeps getting lost is that a HS degree doesn't always equate to the NCAA minimum requirements. You can meet the requirements for a HS degree and not be close to NCAA eligible.

Also, everyone keeps pointing at the NCAA. But in most things NCAA related, their "laws" and approved by the member schools. They aren't really an autonomous entity. I think minimum academic requirements may be one of those things that the member schools have a say on. They get even tougher next year I think.

We also don't even know if the problem was specific to his Senegal courses and what he took.

So when will we be seeing those poppers?
 
rrlbees said:
Well thought out post. But the one thing that keeps getting lost is that a HS degree doesn't always equate to the NCAA minimum requirements. You can meet the requirements for a HS degree and not be close to NCAA eligible.

Also, everyone keeps pointing at the NCAA. But in most things NCAA related, their "laws" and approved by the member schools. They aren't really an autonomous entity. I think minimum academic requirements may be one of those things that the member schools have a say on. They get even tougher next year I think.

We also don't even know if the problem was specific to his Senegal courses and what he took.

So when will we be seeing those poppers?

You name it Bees. Bumper crop this year.
 
Consigliere said:
You name it Bees. Bumper crop this year.

You coming to all the tailgates? If so, or most, whenever your bride is up to making them.
 
rrlbees said:
You coming to all the tailgates? If so, or most, whenever your bride is up to making them.

Will be at most. Niece getting married on Pitt day so depends on game time and doing the Bahamas so no BC. I'll do a pan for Rhode Island if you're going to be there. Got to take care of Oburg too
 
Consigliere said:
Will be at most. Niece getting married on Pitt day so depends on game time and doing the Bahamas so no BC. I'll do a pan for Rhode Island if you're going to be there. Got to take care of Oburg too

I'll be there.
 
Even with all of that Rak showed a lot more than Chinoso did.

As a freshman, though? Boeheim yanked him constantly; for mistakes on defense, too. My point is that the bar is pretty low for Chino. Sure, Rak's more talented, but it took a long time for that talent to come to fruition. Chino can still develop enough to help the team, like so many SU centers have in the past, even though they didn't come anywhere close to sniffing an NBA opportunity. Could he become, say, Jeremy McNeil-good?
 
Forgive me for asking such an (im)pertinent question, but does anyone know why Moustapha Diagne is not attending SU?

How does anyone know this has anything at all to do with an NCAA decision involving him?
A bit oddly, the university's statement says nothing on the reason as it could have without violating purported privacy considerations.
And heaven forbid that anyone should ask the player.

ESPN is reporting that he "has decided to enroll in a two-year college."
That suggests it may have been Diagne's decision, although ESPN doesn't know.

Does anyone have any facts as opposed to just speculation?
(Not that I don't appreciate speculation, but generally prefer facts).
 
I'm not defending anything except to say the core minimum requirements are clear and we had a kid not meet them. It's happened before and will happen again. But just at SU but other schools too. The only way to avoid it is to never go after an at risk kid or borderline kid. What's silly IMO is the grassy knoll theory that the NCAA is out to get us or screw the player.

I think people are just confused as to why a kid coming from a good academic school didn't pass the basic requirements.
 

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