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[CusefanATL]

Since P was let go, in twenty seasons, the program still has fewer wins than P did in his tenure on the hill as HC.

He went 107-59-1

Since then the program is 100-143.

Program legit needs Fran to be a 9-4 coach for the next decade.

thats cool because fran is gonna go 16-0 1 year

 

[OrgTruckPat]

The two of you should revisit the words; 'facts' and 'untrue.'

Touche!

 

[Cusefan95]

Yep P sucked.

I think the segment of the fanbase that still argues that Coach P could have turned things around if only the school gave him a chance while turning him into a blameless victim cause a reactionary "Coach P sucked" take. Honestly both sides of that are making emotional takes that aren't very well connected to reality.

As much as Jimbo gets lambasted for leaving FSU (and how he left), he did it because he saw they were not investing the way their peers were -and winning there was going to get harder and harder if that didn't change. He absolutely created change at FSU - although we can debate if the legally dubious efforts to flee the ACC are good change or not. Syracuse needed someone in the mid-90's to take that stand - and neither Coach P or Jake were men for that task. Things needed to change for Syracuse to remain competitive - and that change didn't come until after they were gone. And by that point, it was already too late.

Overall, I think Jake and Coach P were both better than average at their roles - but they both have a big black stain on their legacies that we should be able to acknowledge while still celebrating their accomplishments.

PS - The late 90's teams never had the line play or depth to be top 10 teams. And McNabb also showed his limitations in the pros - he wasn't a guy who could overcome mediocrity around him and still drag a team to victory over other top teams. They were good not great teams with star power that caused them to be overrated, and us to be disappointed when they frankly played to their ability. In retrospect its fairly clear the collapse of the program had already started by that point since our depth was nonexistent - we just didn't realize it until the quality of the first-line guys dipped as well a couple years later.

 

[Archbold44]

Better than 2017 when we beat #2 Clemson? And took LSU the distance in Death Valley? Per SRS, 2017 was easily the best ever. With a non-brutal schedule and Dungey not getting hurt, we almost certainly have a couple more wins.

View attachment 253850

Good point. But losing to Middle Tennessee State (and Shafer) was as bad a loss as Clemson was a great win. We should have been 4-8 that year. We were 4-8 that year.

2009... emotionally, going from the GRob era to 4-8 was an improvement and progress. 2017 was the third straight 4-8 season. Our worst loss was 4-8 Louisville on the road, 10-9. Not the same embarassment as Middle Tennessee State at home. And beating ranked Rutgers at home with so many injuries and by so much was huge.

The 2017 schedule is pretty close to 2025 in terms of challenge. Road games against LSU, NC State, Miami, Florida State, and Louisville.

I am just arguing for the sake of arguing. 2017 is just as good if not better. 2009 was it for me though, having lived through it in real time.

 

[Archbold44]

I think the segment of the fanbase that still argues that Coach P could have turned things around if only the school gave him a chance while turning him into a blameless victim cause a reactionary "Coach P sucked" take. Honestly both sides of that are making emotional takes that aren't very well connected to reality.

As much as Jimbo gets lambasted for leaving FSU (and how he left), he did it because he saw they were not investing the way their peers were -and winning there was going to get harder and harder if that didn't change. He absolutely created change at FSU - although we can debate if the legally dubious efforts to flee the ACC are good change or not. Syracuse needed someone in the mid-90's to take that stand - and neither Coach P or Jake were men for that task. Things needed to change for Syracuse to remain competitive - and that change didn't come until after they were gone. And by that point, it was already too late.

Overall, I think Jake and Coach P were both better than average at their roles - but they both have a big black stain on their legacies that we should be able to acknowledge while still celebrating their accomplishments.

PS - The late 90's teams never had the line play or depth to be top 10 teams. And McNabb also showed his limitations in the pros - he wasn't a guy who could overcome mediocrity around him and still drag a team to victory over other top teams. They were good not great teams with star power that caused them to be overrated, and us to be disappointed when they frankly played to their ability. In retrospect its fairly clear the collapse of the program had already started by that point since our depth was nonexistent - we just didn't realize it until the quality of the first-line guys dipped as well a couple years later.

Coach P was a good coach, but not a great coach. He benefitted greatly from overlapping about a decade of Pitt, Rutgers, and Temple as conference opponents that would typically win 6 games between them. He let Rutgers up off the mat. He allowed us to get upset by Temple. Pitt regained some form under his watch. That being said, if we had gotten Vick, who knows what might have been.

I'd rank our last 7 coaches: (a) Dick MacPherson; (b) Fran Brown (already); (c) Marrone; (d) Coach P; (e) Babers; () Shafer; (g) the dumbest person on this board; and (h) Greg Robinson.

 

[wfschrec]

The two of you should revisit the words; 'facts' and 'untrue.'

Fact only 5 of 14 seasons were Ps SOS higher than 2024.
Fact they were pounded by UF and KSU in major bowl games
Fact our record got worse as time went on
Fact they were embarrassed by an average GT team in a bowl game
Fact our recruiting rankings got worse as did the level of recruit we brought in

Please point to the non-fact in my statement. I can get you a dictionary if I need to explain the term fact for you.

 

[wfschrec]

I think the segment of the fanbase that still argues that Coach P could have turned things around if only the school gave him a chance while turning him into a blameless victim cause a reactionary "Coach P sucked" take. Honestly both sides of that are making emotional takes that aren't very well connected to reality.

As much as Jimbo gets lambasted for leaving FSU (and how he left), he did it because he saw they were not investing the way their peers were -and winning there was going to get harder and harder if that didn't change. He absolutely created change at FSU - although we can debate if the legally dubious efforts to flee the ACC are good change or not. Syracuse needed someone in the mid-90's to take that stand - and neither Coach P or Jake were men for that task. Things needed to change for Syracuse to remain competitive - and that change didn't come until after they were gone. And by that point, it was already too late.

Overall, I think Jake and Coach P were both better than average at their roles - but they both have a big black stain on their legacies that we should be able to acknowledge while still celebrating their accomplishments.

PS - The late 90's teams never had the line play or depth to be top 10 teams. And McNabb also showed his limitations in the pros - he wasn't a guy who could overcome mediocrity around him and still drag a team to victory over other top teams. They were good not great teams with star power that caused them to be overrated, and us to be disappointed when they frankly played to their ability. In retrospect its fairly clear the collapse of the program had already started by that point since our depth was nonexistent - we just didn't realize it until the quality of the first-line guys dipped as well a couple years later.

McNabb only took the Eagles to how many straight NFC championship games? With guys like Todd Pinkston to throw to? What?

 

[Cusefan95]

McNabb only took the Eagles to how many straight NFC championship games? With guys like Todd Pinkston to throw to? What?

He won exactly zero Super Bowls. He lost two conference championship games when his team was favored. Losing 14-3 to Carolina is terrible - if your defense gives up 14 point you’ve gotta find a way to win the game. He was the same guy in the pros as he was in college - a guy who could make spectacular plays at times but could never get over the hump.

He was an above average QB - but are we really going to lower the bar to “he got to lots of conference championship games!” He was basically Danny White.

 

[Eric15]

The story per Donnie Webb was that Jake wanted Coach P replaced a year or two earlier but was vetoed by Buzz Shaw. The PS never published this because Webb was unable to find a second reliable source to confirm.

Wow, after 2002 would have been just one year removed from a 10 win season and Top 15 finish.

 

[Eric15]

He won exactly zero Super Bowls. He lost two conference championship games when his team was favored. Losing 14-3 to Carolina is terrible - if your defense gives up 14 point you’ve gotta find a way to win the game. He was the same guy in the pros as he was in college - a guy who could make spectacular plays at times but could never get over the hump.

He was an above average QB - but are we really going to lower the bar to “he got to lots of conference championship games!” He was basically Danny White.

Come on now. Danny White made one pro bowl, McNabb made six. McNabb has almost twice as many playoff wins as White.

McNabb had the luxury of a genuinely above average receiver for basically one season in his entire career (TO in 2004), and that was when he went to the Super Bowl. If TO isn't playing with a broken foot in that game, their chances of winning are much better.

McNabb's rightful legacy is the first group of QBs just outside of the Hall of Fame, which is still excellent.

 

[GoSU96]

I

Fact only 5 of 14 seasons were Ps SOS higher than 2024.
Fact they were pounded by UF and KSU in major bowl games
Fact our record got worse as time went on
Fact they were embarrassed by an average GT team in a bowl game
Fact our recruiting rankings got worse as did the level of recruit we brought in

Please point to the non-fact in my statement. I can get you a dictionary if I need to explain the term fact for you.

Fact - 3 ten win, 3 nine wins in 14 yrs.
Fact - finished ranked 7 of 14 yrs
Fact - one losing season in 14 yrs
Fact - six of 14 teams finished with an SRS of 11.20 or better. Only the ‘18 has had a dbl digit value since.
Fact - 4 conference championships and two 6-1 records finishing behind NC Miami, and NC runner up Miami
Fact - Destroyed Clemson 41-0 in a bowl, beat OSU and Colorado in bowls, laid the worst loss in Miami history on them, destroyed defending NC Michigan at their place, shut out Wisconsin in KOC, beat ND, beat Auburn, in his worst season beat #8 VT, beat UFla, Texas,
Fact - In conference dominated the teams they should, 12-2 vs Rutgers, VT, and Pitt, .500 or better against peers, BC, WVU, VT. 6-2 vs Cincinnati, Lville, and UConn.
Fact - .500 vs the SEC, B12, Big 10. Knock for 5-9 vs ACC
Fact - 23-4 vs non P4. 4 losses - 3pts to 11-1 ECU in 91, 3pt loss to 9-3 ECU in 95 (McNabbs 2nd game), 8-4 ECU in 2000, and at BYU in 2002.
Fact - out of 167 games lost 8 games to teams with losing records, 10 to teams with 7 or 6 wins, 23 to teams with 8 or 9 wins, 18 to teams with dbl digit wins.

 

[GoSU96]

Bad post

Good post

 

[wfschrec]

He won exactly zero Super Bowls. He lost two conference championship games when his team was favored. Losing 14-3 to Carolina is terrible - if your defense gives up 14 point you’ve gotta find a way to win the game. He was the same guy in the pros as he was in college - a guy who could make spectacular plays at times but could never get over the hump.

He was an above average QB - but are we really going to lower the bar to “he got to lots of conference championship games!” He was basically Danny White.

So would that make Coach P ? ... asking for a friend.

I

Fact - 3 ten win, 3 nine wins in 14 yrs.
Fact - finished ranked 7 of 14 yrs
Fact - one losing season in 14 yrs
Fact - six of 14 teams finished with an SRS of 11.20 or better. Only the ‘18 has had a dbl digit value since.
Fact - 4 conference championships and two 6-1 records finishing behind NC Miami, and NC runner up Miami
Fact - Destroyed Clemson 41-0 in a bowl, beat OSU and Colorado in bowls, laid the worst loss in Miami history on them, destroyed defending NC Michigan at their place, shut out Wisconsin in KOC, beat ND, beat Auburn, in his worst season beat #8 VT, beat UFla, Texas,
Fact - In conference dominated the teams they should, 12-2 vs Rutgers, VT, and Pitt, .500 or better against peers, BC, WVU, VT. 6-2 vs Cincinnati, Lville, and UConn.
Fact - .500 vs the SEC, B12, Big 10. Knock for 5-9 vs ACC
Fact - 23-4 vs non P4. 4 losses - 3pts to 11-1 ECU in 91, 3pt loss to 9-3 ECU in 95 (McNabbs 2nd game), 8-4 ECU in 2000, and at BYU in 2002.
Fact - out of 167 games lost 8 games to teams with losing records, 10 to teams with 7 or 6 wins, 23 to teams with 8 or 9 wins, 18 to teams with dbl digit wins.

yeah laid the wood to Miami and Michigan and proceeded to go 6-4 the rest of the season. That is a fact you can’t seem to comprehend … I’m glad mediocrity with a roster that talented is your goal. Got trucked by UF in an embarrassing bowl loss … gets exposed by NC State and losses to WVU the whole body of work matters or are you the type that gyrates still over Dino beating Clemson in 2017 and declare it a banner season?

 

[wfschrec]

I

Fact - 3 ten win, 3 nine wins in 14 yrs.
Fact - finished ranked 7 of 14 yrs
Fact - one losing season in 14 yrs
Fact - six of 14 teams finished with an SRS of 11.20 or better. Only the ‘18 has had a dbl digit value since.
Fact - 4 conference championships and two 6-1 records finishing behind NC Miami, and NC runner up Miami
Fact - Destroyed Clemson 41-0 in a bowl, beat OSU and Colorado in bowls, laid the worst loss in Miami history on them, destroyed defending NC Michigan at their place, shut out Wisconsin in KOC, beat ND, beat Auburn, in his worst season beat #8 VT, beat UFla, Texas,
Fact - In conference dominated the teams they should, 12-2 vs Rutgers, VT, and Pitt, .500 or better against peers, BC, WVU, VT. 6-2 vs Cincinnati, Lville, and UConn.
Fact - .500 vs the SEC, B12, Big 10. Knock for 5-9 vs ACC
Fact - 23-4 vs non P4. 4 losses - 3pts to 11-1 ECU in 91, 3pt loss to 9-3 ECU in 95 (McNabbs 2nd game), 8-4 ECU in 2000, and at BYU in 2002.
Fact - out of 167 games lost 8 games to teams with losing records, 10 to teams with 7 or 6 wins, 23 to teams with 8 or 9 wins, 18 to teams with dbl digit wins.

Oh and those big bowl wins over OSU and Colorado were with Mac’s guys as I said earlier … seems to be the thing this board does right analyze the talent left by the former coach … it’s your argument for Marrone. The old coach worship is tiring.

 

[sufandu]

The story per Donnie Webb was that Jake wanted Coach P replaced a year or two earlier but was vetoed by Buzz Shaw. The PS never published this because Webb was unable to find a second reliable source to confirm.

Interesting. This is the first time I've heard this. I always had the impression, from what others have said, that he was too loyal to P to replace him. I wonder who he had in mind to hire.

 

[GoSU96]

So would that make Coach P ? ... asking for a friend.

yeah laid the wood to Miami and Michigan and proceeded to go 6-4 the rest of the season. That is a fact you can’t seem to comprehend … I’m glad mediocrity with a roster that talented is your goal. Got trucked by UF in an embarrassing bowl loss … gets exposed by NC State and losses to WVU the whole body of work matters or are you the type that gyrates still over Dino beating Clemson in 2017 and declare it a banner season?

I guess facts get you worked up.

 

[Jeepers]

I wanted P out simply because I hate the Option.

But P having one more year would have changed our history drastically. Ray Rice and NJ. Football here in the northeast and recruiting in NJ is like Dune. “He who controls [NJ], controls the universe.” I think Rutgers short success and our demise are completely tied together.

 

[721Comstock]

I wanted P out simply because I hate the Option.

But P having one more year would have changed our history drastically. Ray Rice and NJ. Football here in the northeast and recruiting in NJ is like Dune. “He who controls [NJ], controls the universe.” I think Rutgers short success and our demise are completely tied together.

144% THIS.

It’s not remotely a coincidence that Rutgers AND UConn had substantial upticks in their respective programs -
at the exact same time Cuse put themselves on a self-inflicted death penalty re the GERG ERROR.

My dad always quoted “nature abhors a vacuum”.

Cuse sucking for an extended period created the void that Rutty (and to a lesser extent UCannt) were then able to fill.
Schady took full advantage of that opportunity to negative recruit against us, because it was easy pickings.

Even if they had kept P for one more year, at least we woulda had Ray Rice in the fold, instead of him going to SUNJ.

Just avoiding the GERG hire would’ve been sufficient to drastically alter our trajectory.

FFF’n DOCTOR GROSS & CHANCY NANCY.

 

[orangecuse]

Look I'm thankful for the job he did but for context only 5 of his seasons did his SOS exceed that of Fran's this year ... only 5 of 14. The fact is after riding the coat tails of what Mac left behind when he beat OSU and Colorado in major bowls other than beating Clemson he was shredded in major bowl games (KSU, UF) and the program was on a slow downward spiral under his leadership. After McNabb left and took his superhuman abilities with him other than 2001 he was a relatively poor recruiter and he subjected the fanbase to some awful losses like Georgia Tech.

Bad post

I’ll file your opinion in the who gives a $h1t drawer. Those are what we call facts.

Please point to the non-fact in my statement. I can get you a dictionary if I need to explain the term fact for you.

The original post of yours, comprehensively, incorporated opinion. "Riding the coat tails"...is purely your opinion. Additionally, McNabb having "superhuman abilities" is an obvious non-fact as well.

Your response to OrangePA's "bad post" followed.

Perhaps, it's you who needs to get a dictionary if this isn't obvious and clear to you.

 

[baggerbob]

McNabb only took the Eagles to how many straight NFC championship games? With guys like Todd Pinkston to throw to? What?

And a running back who couldn't pick up short yardage or hold on to the ball in critical situations.

 

[wfschrec]

I guess facts get you worked up.

No I work 12-16 hours a day ... I like to have a well rounded day ... not all of us are satisfied with partial results .. in your case I guess its a thing.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Coach P should be in the College Hall of Fame.

Anyone here who doesn’t believe that, should just leave and never come back.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Oh and those big bowl wins over OSU and Colorado were with Mac’s guys as I said earlier … seems to be the thing this board does right analyze the talent left by the former coach … it’s your argument for Marrone. The old coach worship is tiring.

Mac didn’t recruit. P did.

They’re just as much P & D guys, maybe even more so, than Mac guys.

 

[wfschrec]

Mac didn’t recruit. P did.

They’re just as much P & D guys, maybe even more so, than Mac guys.

All assistants recruit ... nothing new ... P was on staff as an assistant for 3 years. Mac already had the ball rolling towards a perfect season in 1987 before he arrived. Remind me again how Ps post SU career went? You guys really love worshiping the past. Its actually remarkable how stuck in 1991-92 you are. Brown is exactly what this program needed someone who could sell the program internally and externally, P couldn't do it. Try moving on and enjoying this new era instead of dating the girl that finished 8th runner up to the prom queen. Losing catastrophically to a 7-5 NC State team is not my definition of a banner season but again you may have low standards.

 

[GoSU96]

All assistants recruit ... nothing new ... P was on staff as an assistant for 3 years. Mac already had the ball rolling towards a perfect season in 1987 before he arrived. Remind me again how Ps post SU career went? You guys really love worshiping the past. Its actually remarkable how stuck in 1991-92 you are. Brown is exactly what this program needed someone who could sell the program internally and externally, P couldn't do it. Try moving on and enjoying this new era instead of dating the girl that finished 8th runner up to the prom queen. Losing catastrophically to a 7-5 NC State team is not my definition of a banner season but again you may have low standards.

Had the ball rolling? 6-5, 6-5, 7-5, 5-6. There was a sack Mac Pac.