Do we need to be more aggressive on O?

[kingottoiii]

Passing in of itself is is not aggressive, it can be conservative (see WCOs). It seems like early on in games that most of our patterns are of the short variety. Lots of quick passes. IMO it is hard to string along a bunch of those and score on a long drive. Especially with all the mistakes we make. It seems like we do not use a lot of intermediate passes (IMO Nassib's strength) until we fall behind. In fact most of our passing yards have come that way. For the most part we have struggled to move the ball in first halves. Then in second halves we have moved it well but found ways to mess up and not score.


1% of our passing yards have come when we are up by more than one score (3.1% of mins played).

53% of our passing yards have come when the game is within one score either way (69.8% of mins played).

46% of our passing yards have come when we are down by more than one score (27.1% of mins played).


I understand that when you are behind that you will pass it more and need to be more aggressive. And a D will be less aggressive making it easier to pass. But the question I have: is our production in those 69.8% of mins played good enough?

 

[orangenauburn]

We rarely strike deep early

We need more 20 to 30 yard attempts in the first quarter

Set the tone

If you focus on short underneath routes it is is hard to establish the run when you are already drawing the D up with those short under routes

 

[GoSU96]

We rarely strike deep early

We need more 20 to 30 yard attempts in the first quarter

Set the tone

If you focus on short underneath routes it is is hard to establish the run when you are already drawing the D up with those short under routes

You mean like the first pass of the game which went to Sales for 23 yds last week?

 

[JeremyCuse]

You mean like the first pass of the game which went to Sales for 23 yds last week?

Problem was that was the last one until midway through the fourth quarter. Otto is right we need more of the intermediate 20-30 yard pass plays, its where Nassib has looked the best and it plays to the strengths of Sales and West and opens up Lemon more underneath.

 

[orangenauburn]

And then we got away from it

We had 46 yards of offense with five minutes left in the half
half of that came on one play

We opened up in the fourth and torched them

 

[kingottoiii]

It would be interesting, but almost impossible unless someone goes back and watches the games, to see how many of Nassib's passes are in the 10-20 yard range vs in the <10 yard range. You can't just look at a stat sheet because a 6 yard pass can turn into a 12 yard gain. It seemed like in the RU game most patterns were in that under 10 range and in the middle of the field. IMO that made it awfully easy for their D as we were only using a small part of the field. Plus we don't have the horses to turn a 5 yard pass into a big gain, so they could jump patterns and not worry about keeping safeties too deep. The last two seasons RU has seemed to know where the ball was going ahead of time, which is a problem. IMO the NW game was mostly short passes until the 4th Q. Same for our other games. It seems like our passing scheme is no different than in years past. We are just better at executing it and doing it at a quicker pace. But it is all short quick passes until we get behind and then open things up. Is this what our O is? Or is it a necessity because of pass protection?

 

[dollarbill44]

I think a lot of people watch games like they watch the presidential debates - they see what supports their views and disregard the rest. When the underneath pass to the TE in the middle of the field is the only thing open, it's a conservative passing game that is to blame, not the fact that the opposing defense is willing to give up the short pass in order to stop the deep passes because they know we are mistake prone and struggle in the red zone.

I don't think it's a coincidence that our offense looks a lot better (i.e. able to complete more intermediate passes) when we are down 3 scores in the 4th quarter of games. I don't think it's due to a change in offensive philosophy.

 

[GoSU96]

Problem was that was the last one until midway through the fourth quarter. Otto is right we need more of the intermediate 20-30 yard pass plays, its where Nassib has looked the best and it plays to the strengths of Sales and West and opens up Lemon more underneath.

You're talking about plays, right.

First 10 passes thrown, three were just like that to Sales. First was completed, second sailed and was missed, the third was dropped by Sales that if he catches it goes 53 for a TD most likely.

And 20-30 passes are not intermediate throws. In all of college football this year only 16% of all passes completed are for greater than 20 yds. And you know that some of those were thrown shorter and run into that range.

 

[upperdeck]

where the passes are thrown and where they are supposed to be thrown are unknowns.. just because we call a deep throw as option one doesnt mean we actually get that pass thrown. teams are playing press man, with safety help because they dont fear anyone we have, thats make deep throws much harder. we end up with deep throws to west because he can get off the line, but he creates no separation and neither does anyone else.

 

[kingottoiii]

I think a lot of people watch games like they watch the presidential debates - they see what supports their views and disregard the rest. When the underneath pass to the TE in the middle of the field is the only thing open, it's a conservative passing game that is to blame, not the fact that the opposing defense is willing to give up the short pass in order to stop the deep passes because they know we are mistake prone and struggle in the red zone.

I don't think it's a coincidence that our offense looks a lot better (i.e. able to complete more intermediate passes) when we are down 3 scores in the 4th quarter of games. I don't think it's due to a change in offensive philosophy.

The issue is if you look at the patterns everyone is going short. I would agree if it was a take what the D is giving you situation. There were many plays vs RU where we had 5 guys going out and not one of them was past the first down marker. Most of our short passes Nassib is trying to fit it in a tight window to the TE or Lemon. It is not like these guys are wide open. If the primary target is constantly a slant or quick throw in the flat, how do you keep a D honest?

 

[PhatOrange]

The longer passes also come with a higher risk. They are harder to complete then you're looking at second and ten, third and ten etc.

Just look at what rutgers did against us. Taking all those shots downfield and coming up empty which led to a bunch of three and outs.

 

[dollarbill44]

The issue is if you look at the patterns everyone is going short. I would agree if it was a take what the D is giving you situation. There were many plays vs RU where we had 5 guys going out and not one of them was past the first down marker. Most of our short passes Nassib is trying to fit it in a tight window to the TE or Lemon. It is not like these guys are wide open. If the primary target is constantly a slant or quick throw in the flat, how do you keep a D honest?

Were there some plays where everyone went short? Sure, there were. These were generally in short yardage situations or on 1st down. But, I saw several pass plays where we had 3 guys running deep routes with one guy short. A bunch of the underneath passes were check-downs to a TE or RB who were wide open. Again, maybe I am biased in how I saw things, but I don't think your statement that we only ran short pass routes is even close to true.

 

[RICuse44]

The issue is if you look at the patterns everyone is going short. I would agree if it was a take what the D is giving you situation. There were many plays vs RU where we had 5 guys going out and not one of them was past the first down marker. Most of our short passes Nassib is trying to fit it in a tight window to the TE or Lemon. It is not like these guys are wide open. If the primary target is constantly a slant or quick throw in the flat, how do you keep a D honest?

I agree with the king. From pop warner on up everyone talks about progressions. You have your post (deep), you have your 15 yard out (long intermediate), you have your short intermediate (6-10 yard hook), and you have your short flares and 2x2 or hitches. A lot of times you run similar looks with different primary receivers. It seems like most of our routes overall is everyone running a short intermediate or short route with a long route added in that really is never a factor. I get the issue with needing enough time but most of these players should be able to get 15 yards downfield in 4 or 5 seconds. Instead, it looks like we would rather have them 3-5 yards downfield in 2 seconds. Which is great, if you're Oregon and have someone who can do something with the ball after the catch.

 

[SWC75]

I'd like a few more 15-20 yard passes. That's my idea of "intermediate and it's where Nassib is most accurate. People tend to over-estimate how far a pass goes in the air. A 30 yard pass is pretty far downfield and accuracy, (espcially Nassib's) will tend to decline sharply at that distance.

 

[orangenirvana]

the third was dropped by Sales that if he catches it goes 53 for a TD most likely.

Not that it relates at all to the topic at hand, but I wouldn't call that a drop by Sales.

 

[GoSU96]

Not that it relates at all to the topic at hand, but I wouldn't call that a drop by Sales.

It bounced off his hands.

He didn't get his head around coming out of the break, Nassib threw it on time and on target.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Not that it relates at all to the topic at hand, but I wouldn't call that a drop by Sales.

I was thinking the same thing, Sales has made plenty of tough catches this year, he has had a few drops, I don't see that as being one

 

[JeremyCuse]

You're talking about plays, right.

First 10 passes thrown, three were just like that to Sales. First was completed, second sailed and was missed, the third was dropped by Sales that if he catches it goes 53 for a TD most likely.

And 20-30 passes are not intermediate throws. In all of college football this year only 16% of all passes completed are for greater than 20 yds. And you know that some of those were thrown shorter and run into that range.

The play to Sales on the drop was a shorter pass that he should have had I agree.

For this offense 20-30 yard passes are the intermediate area as we utilize a ton of 5-15 yard pass plays with most of them being in the 5-8 yard range. Based on the fact that we now refuse to utilize a vertical game we need to take more shots in the 20-30 yard range where Sales and West have shown they can have a lot of success, this will open up Lemon and the TE's underneath. Also these types of throws increase the chances that Sales or West or even Kobena when he gets back can make a move and gets some additional YAC or even 6. With 4 offensive touchdowns in our last 12 quarters its time to take some shots down the field.

 

[OrangePA]

Passing in of itself is is not aggressive, it can be conservative (see WCOs). It seems like early on in games that most of our patterns are of the short variety. Lots of quick passes. IMO it is hard to string along a bunch of those and score on a long drive. Especially with all the mistakes we make. It seems like we do not use a lot of intermediate passes (IMO Nassib's strength) until we fall behind. In fact most of our passing yards have come that way. For the most part we have struggled to move the ball in first halves. Then in second halves we have moved it well but found ways to mess up and not score.


1% of our passing yards have come when we are up by more than one score (3.1% of mins played).

53% of our passing yards have come when the game is within one score either way (69.8% of mins played).

46% of our passing yards have come when we are down by more than one score (27.1% of mins played).


I understand that when you are behind that you will pass it more and need to be more aggressive. And a D will be less aggressive making it easier to pass. But the question I have: is our production in those 69.8% of mins played good enough?

So, the problem is play calling?

 

[IHeartSUFball]

We've done a little bit better job not playing to lose at home I guess.. Obviously the O in the Pitt game was susceptible but I'd love us to go for the kill.. Anyone else think kobenas return will help the vertical passing game? I do kid was hitting his stride

 

[Opus]

We rarely strike deep early

We need more 20 to 30 yard attempts in the first quarter

Set the tone

If you focus on short underneath routes it is is hard to establish the run when you are already drawing the D up with those short under routes

Like the 80 yard bomb to Rob Moore v Penn State in '87. (Ok haven't read the entire thread, may have already been mentioned)

 

[dollarbill44]

Like the 80 yard bomb to Rob Moore v Penn State in '87. (Ok haven't read the entire thread, may have already been mentioned)

That was a top 5 all-time great play for SU football.

In no particular order:
Schwedes to Davis in Cotton Bowl
McPherson to Moore ('87 PSU)
Michael Owens runs for 11-0 ('87 WVU)
McNabb to Brominski ('98 VaTech)
Kirby Dar Dar opening KO for TD ('91 Florida)

 

[690West]

That was a top 5 all-time great play for SU football.

In no particular order:
Schwedes to Davis in Cotton Bowl
McPherson to Moore ('87 PSU)
Michael Owens runs for 11-0 ('87 WVU)
McNabb to Brominski ('98 VaTech)
Kirby Dar Dar opening KO for TD ('91 Florida)

As I read that list I still get upset that we can't include "Graves to Gedney ('92 Miami)" UGH!!!!

 

[dollarbill44]

As I read that list I still get upset that we can't include "Graves to Gedney ('92 Miami)" UGH!!!!

Oh-so-close to 10-1 and potential NC game!

 

[690West]

Oh-so-close to 10-1 and potential NC game!

I can't believe we were 8th in the country going into that game? Man, those were the days