Do we really want to start all over again?

[CousCuse]

if one of them was in the end zone, I'd be pretty happy.

Yeah , that's when they use him , the defense run blitzes and we lose 5 yards.

 

[Opus]

No I do not want SU to start over again, but most def. a do-over.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

That's debatable . You always run the big back first , that's how its been done forever at every level. You tackle Moore 15 times and let me know how you feel.

I don't think it's a debate that takes very long to resolve.

 

[Stevenson]

I knew Paul Pasqualoni. I worked with Paul Pasqualoni. Scott Shafer is no Paul Pasqualoni.

You can't draw conclusions from one data point. Coach P was an assistant who had success as a head a coach, therefore, only hire assistants until the end of time. That's not how you run a biz.

Football has changed since 1989. Syracuse hasn't.

 

[CuseOnly]

You brought up the Rays. Now you don't give a s@^%#& about them. If you can only judge somebody over 100 years, don't you have to judge SU over 100 years? We're the 15th winningest program of all time! Maybe you should go back to talking about how things are now.

So...because I brought them up as an example of how not spend money on your program means I have to care about them???

I brought up the Rays as to what NOT to do with MONEY. That they have been successful without in the recent past is an anomaly and not sustainable over time. There is no way in CFB to find a great player off waivers or get a value player from somewhere and just spend less. There has to be a commitment monetarily and a commitment to be competitive. Period.

The fact that they have survived is amazing but not possible using that formula in CFB.

When was the last non P5 school that won a national championship, that should tell you enough about commitment. The fact that SU is in the P5 and the ACC is more of a testament to the Basketball team and our football history not any recent commitment to football.

Do you think that it is a coincidence that we have the Melo Center, one of the best facilities in Basketball, college or pro and that we get great recruiting classes since it was built?? Let me tell you, it is not.

Football doesn't have that, or a Hall of Fame coach to rely on.

Do you think that just bringing our football facilities up to just around the lower 3rd in the P5 is going to propel us to consistent winning seasons?? Most likely not but that as it seems is all our administration is willing to do. So we will continue to be a lower level program.

It is what it is.

 

[CousCuse]

I don't think it's a debate that takes very long to resolve.

It's not about who is better . Which is better , a racehorse or a plowhorse ? That depends what you need a horse for , doesn't it ? But hey ,that's just what I would do .

 

[baggerbob]

Things are going bad and everybody wants to fire the coach, which means his entire staff, (or close to it). You have to re-establish all of our recruiting contacts. We may have a whole new offense and defense to learn. Players who came here because of the coach who recruited them may transfer. Those recruits we've lined up may de-commit. It would be the fourth new coaching staff in a decade. Future recruits would wonder if the guys recruiting them will still be here when they get here.

Shafer won a bowl game last year. Coach Mac was 6-16-1 in his first 23 games. Isn't it better to stick with these guys and give them a chance to figure things out?

Ben was 9-10 against less then stellar competition, and 35-27-1 in 7 years, with a terrible bowl loss 61-6 to Alabama yet he worked out OK. Mac was still only 30-36-1, after 6 years, and o my we went 11-0-1, but should have canned him after 6-15-1 the first 2 years. Like you I remember, that our program has never been one where a quick fix works. Present day fans don't seem to have the patience to build a good product from the ground up. Sometimes when you put a plan in place, you have to suffer growing pains for it to work. I hate the bad times as much as any, but its been proven before, that it takes time to build a foundation for sustained success at Syracuse.

 

[Chris02M]

with our team we need the homerun threat in there at rb since we cant connect thru the air

 

[OrangeFoo]

The question isn't really if we want to start over it's when do we want to start over.

HCSS does not have a shot in hell of turning this thing around. He just seems clueless about how to improve this team. He got lucky last year that he played so many bad teams that were broken in a number of ways that we were able to luck our way to enough wins to get to a bowl. Minnesota and BC were probably our two best wins last year but whatever momentum he generated is now lost. This year we have lost three straight games where the game was pretty much over after the first half and next week that will be extended to four. The MD team who everyone is saying had so much more talent than us got run over by OSU... they are not that good of a team. Additionally we should have lost to Villanova.

The baffling part is that we only lost a few key players on the offensive side of the ball... from what I can see Hunt, GM3, Estime, D Davis seem to have all gotten a lost worse since last year and the oline is just terrible at run blocking. The secondary looks generally clueless as last year.

Shafer talks a good game but has yet to back it up on the field against any good teams. We are going to have to start over at some point... I for one would prefer to get it over with now rather than lost two more years.

 

[kcsu]

shafer is going to be fine if he can fix the O side of the fence.

 

[Chris02M]

shafer is going to be fine if he can fix the O side of the fence.

and maybe gets some players back on offense

 

[texasorange]

Things are going bad and everybody wants to fire the coach, which means his entire staff, (or close to it). You have to re-establish all of our recruiting contacts. We may have a whole new offense and defense to learn. Players who came here because of the coach who recruited them may transfer. Those recruits we've lined up may de-commit. It would be the fourth new coaching staff in a decade. Future recruits would wonder if the guys recruiting them will still be here when they get here.

Shafer won a bowl game last year. Coach Mac was 6-16-1 in his first 23 games. Isn't it better to stick with these guys and give them a chance to figure things out?

Thank you SWC 75. You essentially summarized my thoughts. Well done!

 

[longislandcuse]

We are barely functioning as a D-1 football team right now. I haven't seen anything this bad since the G-Rob years and I'm not sure I'm willing to risk going back there for a coach who "might" figure it out.

3 major red flags

-We have yet to be competitive against anyone above our peer group.
-The temper tantrum he had because of Dabo
-Last night ridiculous press conference.

 

[Chip]

I don't want to wait too long (like we did with GRob).

Obviously there's a lot of football left to play. But if this season ends with 2-3 wins, and continues to look as disorganized and mistake prone as it has, do you stay the course just because you don't want to start all over again?

 

[SWC75]

So...because I brought them up as an example of how not spend money on your program means I have to care about them???

I brought up the Rays as to what NOT to do with MONEY. That they have been successful without in the recent past is an anomaly and not sustainable over time. There is no way in CFB to find a great player off waivers or get a value player from somewhere and just spend less. There has to be a commitment monetarily and a commitment to be competitive. Period.

The fact that they have survived is amazing but not possible using that formula in CFB.

When was the last non P5 school that won a national championship, that should tell you enough about commitment. The fact that SU is in the P5 and the ACC is more of a testament to the Basketball team and our football history not any recent commitment to football.

Do you think that it is a coincidence that we have the Melo Center, one of the best facilities in Basketball, college or pro and that we get great recruiting classes since it was built?? Let me tell you, it is not.

Football doesn't have that, or a Hall of Fame coach to rely on.

Do you think that just bringing our football facilities up to just around the lower 3rd in the P5 is going to propel us to consistent winning seasons?? Most likely not but that as it seems is all our administration is willing to do. So we will continue to be a lower level program.

It is what it is.

Your initial reference to the Rays:

"We are the Tampa Bay Rays using the luxury tax from the Yankees and Red Sox every year to line their pockets and not improve their product on the field."

It was pointed out they have an enviable record on the field in recent years, which they would not have had if they were just pocketing the Yankee's and Red Sox money and not improving their team. With that, you said you don't care about them.

Beyond that they would seem, as you point out above, to have little to do with the struggles of a college football program, since the situations are clearly different.

 

[SWC75]

I don't want to wait too long (like we did with GRob).

Obviously there's a lot of football left to play. But if this season ends with 2-3 wins, and continues to look as disorganized and mistake prone as it has, do you stay the course just because you don't want to start all over again?

Yes, until we can be certain that Shafer's tenure is a complete failure with no potential to improve, something that was clearly demonstrated in the G-Rob tenure. Keep in mind that Shafer already has one less win than G-Rob had in four years, so they are hardly comparable.

People who think that a revolving door coaching staff is the answer to building a program because it increases the likelihood of getting the "right guy" are foolish. So are people who think throwing money at a famous coach to come here to save us. if we make him rich it will be less money for assistants. We've never had a an already famous coach come here, (Ossie Solem was the most prominent but his record wasn't spectacular). Coaches become famous here. Every coach after Schwartzwalder was an assistant on somebody's staff when he was hired, (Coach Mac head coached at UMASS a decade before). Whoever follows Shafer will likely have a similar resume. it would just be another spin of the roulette wheel. I'd rather stick this thing out at least through next season before we decide we have to spin that darn thing again. And things would have to stay dismal until then for me to want to do that.

 

[Stern]

It comes down to would you rather make the move to a new head coach a year too early or wait go through this again next year possibly (with LSU, FSU, and Clemson on your schedule its likely) and make the move a year too late and put yourself in even a bigger mess and dig yourself a bigger hole to dig out from.

And this goes beyond just losing it's how they are losing. If they were losing close games and being competitive in games thats one thing. SU isn't even competitive in these games. Opponents get leads and never look back and SU doesn't ever cut into the leads or make games of these contests. That's the scary part. If they were losing heart-breakers ok, you can live it with. Give it time. These games are just un-competitive though. SU isn't putting up a fight in these games. And a lot of it does have to do with the coaching and gameplan because SU's talent level isn't awful by any means. This team has talent!

 

[Stern]

Football has changed since 1989. Syracuse hasn't.

This is someone who gets it! The game and more importantly the landscape of college football has changed so much in recent years trying to compare college football today to the 80's or even the "McNabb era" is silly. It's not the same game or landscape anymore.

 

[Stern]

We are barely functioning as a D-1 football team right now. I haven't seen anything this bad since the G-Rob years and I'm not sure I'm willing to risk going back there for a coach who "might" figure it out.

3 major red flags

-We have yet to be competitive against anyone above our peer group.
-The temper tantrum he had because of Dabo
-Last night ridiculous press conference.

I can break it down more than that. Shafer has been really really lucky twice since being the SU head coach and if not for that luck this "debate" isn't even happening and the masses would be calling for his head.

1) If the Nova kicker didn't pull an epic choke job, SU has 1 win right now and is 1-4
2) If BC didn't run out of bounds for no reason late in the 4th quarter and give SU the ball back when they could have ran out the clock essentially SU loses that game and wins only 5 games last year and has no Bowl appearance.

Those are 2 events Shafer got very very VERY lucky with and he had nothing to do with. He got lucky plain and simple. So just imagine Shafer wasn't lucky and he is 1-4 as we sit today and he is coming off a 5 win season with no bowl game. Would this debate even be happening? NOPE, the vast majority would be calling for his job and to fire him.

If you dig deep and look into things a little further, you start to realize and ask, what the heck is Shafer's "landmark win" or even "best win" so far? Is it Minnesota in a bowl...I guess but he was lucky to get there. Are things getting better under him as we move forward? (they clearly aren't) Why should SU stick with him? It's really tough to find reasons to keep him at this point and get positive answers to those questions.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

starting with commitment from the people at the top -- to return us to the late 80s/early 90s prominence.

The problem with that is the commitment from the people at the top has never been there.The prominence of the late 80s/early 90s was the result of tax payer $ and not any commitment from the school itself.The building of the dome is all that's standing between S.U. and a half century of mediocre to total show football.They had a golden opportunity to build a strong football program handed to them if they wanted and they didn't do it.That's why you see a half empty dome.They dont care about football and everyone here knows it.

 

[CuseOnly]

Your initial reference to the Rays:

"We are the Tampa Bay Rays using the luxury tax from the Yankees and Red Sox every year to line their pockets and not improve their product on the field."

It was pointed out they have an enviable record on the field in recent years, which they would not have had if they were just pocketing the Yankee's and Red Sox money and not improving their team. With that, you said you don't care about them.

Beyond that they would seem, as you point out above, to have little to do with the struggles of a college football program, since the situations are clearly different.

What part of what I said do you not understand. I explained what I said quite clearly. They have won in recent years in spite of their spending, not because of it. It is an anomaly.

Why do you go back to the original point after the explanation of it instead of just reading the explanation.

Besides what the Tampa poster said, they have only been to the playoffs 4 times, not the 7 he suggested. Having lost in the first round twice, 2nd round once and making it to the series and losing once. I would not go by what a poster said and use his stats to call their recent success as "enviable". The Yankees success is exemplary and "enviable" where a season missing the playoffs is the anomaly and they spend money to achieve it.

That is the point you are choosing not to get. Address the point, not the example as there isn't a perfect one to illustrate.

http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/tb/history/year_by_year_results.jsp
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/tb/history/postseason_results.jsp

They have never spent more than 54 mil on a team with an average around 35 mil and they will most likely spend 75%+ of their future history NOT making the playoffs. Just as their record shows they have to this point.

Who cares.

It won't change the fact that the SU administration isn't ALL IN with athletics and the commitment to build a perennial contender. They would rather waffle somewhere in the middle as they have shown.

I am die hard fan since I was a little kid and even I am wavering in my support of this university at this point. I won't abandon my team, but I can choose not to line their pockets with my dollars and stay home to watch on TV until I see the same commitment from them that us fans have.

 

[Millhouse]

Yes, until we can be certain that Shafer's tenure is a complete failure with no potential to improve, something that was clearly demonstrated in the G-Rob tenure. Keep in mind that Shafer already has one less win than G-Rob had in four years, so they are hardly comparable. People who think that a revolving door coaching staff is the answer to building a program because it increases the likelihood of getting the "right guy" are foolish. So are people who think throwing money at a famous coach to come here to save us. if we make him rich it will be less money for assistants. We've never had a an already famous coach come here, (Ossie Solem was the most prominent but his record wasn't spectacular). Coaches become famous here. Every coach after Schwartzwalder was an assistant on somebody's staff when he was hired, (Coach Mac had coached at UMASS a decade before). Whoever follows Shafer will likely have a similar resume. it would just be another spin of the roulette wheel. I'd rather stick this thing out at least through next season before we decide we have to spin that darn thing again. And things would have to stay dismal until then for me to want to do that.

Waiting until there is certainty with no potential to improve is waiting too long

 

[CuseOnly]

You mean the Tampa Bay Rays that missed the playoffs this year for the first time in seven years. The Tampa Bay Rays that had been predicted to be in the World Series before the season began, you mean that Tampa Bay Rays team that does not have a good product on the field... SU should dream of having that kind of team, the team that has the second most regular season wins in the last seven years...

Really? First year missed in 7 years huh. Rays site says differently. Looks like thay have missed every other year since 2008 and have only been a total of 4 times in their history. From their own website below. Use facts man.

http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/tb/history/postseason_results.jsp

 

[TheCusian]

We are barely functioning as a D-1 football team right now. I haven't seen anything this bad since the G-Rob years and I'm not sure I'm willing to risk going back there for a coach who "might" figure it out. 3 major red flags -We have yet to be competitive against anyone above our peer group. -The temper tantrum he had because of Dabo -Last night ridiculous press conference.

We were competitive with ND.

 

[longislandcuse]

We were competitive with ND.

I was at the game. At no time did we look like we could actually win. We were down 2 scores for most of the game. We didn't get embarrassed but I wouldn't say we were competitive.